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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
    #14628478 - 06/17/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
You must show the alternative reason that contains no fear if that is your assertion.


The burden of proof is on you..you are the one who made the original claim that all hatred is rooted in fear. I have absolutely no obligation to disprove your pet-theory. :nicekitty:


Quote:

Rahz said:
Pathogens seems to be the most logical reason for an aversion to crap...


Even though children (who don't know WTF pathogens are) are very averse to the smell of crap? Even though some people actually like the smell of crap?


Quote:

Rahz said:
And that's what it comes down to, aversion and attraction. I will retract my statement that hate is a sub-category of fear. Hate and fear are both emotional aspects of aversion, and I cannot think of any circumstance in which I'm sure there is one without the other.


So, since hatred and fear are both emotional aspects of aversion, this means that they are mutually inclusive? Why?


Quote:

Rahz said:
When a person has a fear, there will naturally be a component of hate, even if it is dormant or repressed.


How do you know this?


Quote:

Rahz said:
When a person hates, there will naturally be a component of fear.


You're just recycling the same old crap, you have not substantiated this assertion once.


Quote:

Rahz said:
The dominant expression is whatever seems to be the most effective strategy.


Maybe sometimes, sure.

But all the time? Prove it.


Quote:

Rahz said:
It's up to you to establish hate in the absence of fear or vice versa.


First of all, no it's not..burden of proof is on the original claimant, which is you. Second of all, I already did.


Quote:

Rahz said:
You give me an example of 'hatred of crap' yet you do not provide a reason.


I already provided the reason why we hate certain things..feelings of hate occur when our preferences are not being met, it's as simple as that.


Quote:

Rahz said:
Until you give a reason, we must assume the person in question hates crap just because it's 'displeasing'.


IOW, because being exposed to the smell of crap means a particular olfactory preference is not being met..just like I said. :shrug:


Quote:

Rahz said:
However, there's nothing logical or reasonable about it if you do not provide any logic or reason.


There's nothing logical/reasonable about hating something that is displeasing? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
    #14628572 - 06/17/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There's nothing logical/reasonable about hating something that is displeasing?




Not unless you give a reason. Simply saying you like or don't like something isn't reasonable. Surely you can grok this.

I did indicate that it's my opinion that hate and fear aren't mutually exclusive. If you would like to prove me wrong, do it. Simply stating that I haven't described every possible scenario every person might experience isn't reasonable. You know I can't do that. However, through experience I have noted that it seems they are not exclusive, so that's my story. I cannot give an example where one exists in the absence of the other... can you? Someone points a gun at my head. I'm afraid, and I'm angry. The expression is the one perceived as being most effective. It's logical that it happens like this. I want to either remove myself from the situation, or I want to remove the other person from the situation. If I run scared, I still will feel anger. If I fight, there will still be fear.

If you can provide an example where hate could be present in the complete absence of fear, then I will concede. Simply stating that something displeases you, and through some magical act of free will you choose to hate it without any fear involved is weak. You are not obligated to prove me wrong, but I see that my pet theory has more logical support so far than yours. You claim that a flat assertion is reasonable. :nonono:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
    #14628708 - 06/17/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

There's nothing logical/reasonable about hating something that is displeasing?




Not unless you give a reason. Simply saying you like or don't like something isn't reasonable. Surely you can grok this.


Surely you can grok why the pursuit of pleasure, and the avoidance of discomfort is logical/reasonable..I don't feel like I need to explain this to anybody older than 2 1/2 years old.


Quote:

Rahz said:
I did indicate that it's my opinion that hate and fear aren't mutually exclusive. If you would like to prove me wrong, do it.


Again, you fail to understand the concept called "burden of proof"..you are the original claimant, the burden of proof is on you. I am under no obligation to disprove your claim, because I am simply asking you to prove your claim. If you don't do that, then you will have copped out.


Quote:

Rahz said:
Simply stating that I haven't described every possible scenario every person might experience isn't reasonable. You know I can't do that. However, through experience I have noted that it seems they are not exclusive, so that's my story. I cannot give an example where one exists in the absence of the other... can you? Someone points a gun at my head. I'm afraid, and I'm angry. The expression is the one perceived as being most effective. It's logical that it happens like this. I want to either remove myself from the situation, or I want to remove the other person from the situation. If I run scared, I still will feel anger. If I fight, there will still be fear.

If you can provide an example where hate could be present in the complete absence of fear, then I will concede. Simply stating that something displeases you, and through some magical act of free will you choose to hate it without any fear involved is weak. You are not obligated to prove me wrong, but I see that my pet theory has more logical support so far than yours. You claim that a flat assertion is reasonable. :nonono:


I'm not providing shit anymore until you grasp the concept called "burden of proof", and until you fulfill your obligation in this debate as the original claimant to provide proof for your claim that fear and hate are mutually inclusive.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleRahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
    #14628861 - 06/17/11 03:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Obviously I cannot provide proof on such a sweeping statement. However, all my experience points towards it being true. I could provide anecdote after anecdote to support it. I have already provided two and you have not attempted to argue against them. I will not, for obvious reasons, try to provide the absolute proof you ask for. From a philosophical standpoint it's often not possible to provide empirical proof for a claim in all possible situations. But what can be done is to provide supporting evidence, and likelihoods emerge. These perceptions of what is likely and unlikely constitute what we base our future actions and thoughts upon. There is more to philosophy than absolute proof.

I have seen that the angry hold fears which correlate with their anger. You provide the assertion that a person can hate shit without fear, but seem unable to explain why a person might hate shit. I suggest that if a person hates shit, whatever the reason might be, there's also going to be some fear involved. But without that information, which you are unwilling to give for some reason, there is no means to question whether fear might be present. I made a claim which is inferred. You made a claim that could easily be expounded upon with reason, and in doing so you could upset my claim because my claim is more general than yours. It would be so easy, and yet you are failing to do so. My guess is that you can't give any logic for hating shit without fear because there isn't any.

Quote:

Surely you can grok why the pursuit of pleasure, and the avoidance of discomfort is logical/reasonable




Yes! Pleasure is perceived as being healthy, and life extending, discomfort is perceived as unhealthy and life shortening. People are attracted to pleasure, and avoid discomfort unless there is some greater issue involved, which also lends itself to future pleasure or discomfort. Life is not thought centric, so it's no surprise that we may not know why we have the aversions we do. But if you want to sound reasonable, you should give reasons. To simply state that something displeases you because you don't like it is the ultimate weak argument. In defence of my argument, it's readily apparent why a person would both be angry and afraid of someone holding a gun to their head. However, I know of no reason why a person would hate shit, but not be afraid of it. It's illogical to waste resources on an emotional state when there's no specific reason to -fear- it. Are you making an appeal to irrationality?

I say if you hate shit, there is some reason that you can perceive it being unhealthy somehow. Once we hammer that out, the fear would likely be obvious, which I guess is the real reason you don't want to go there.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

Edited by Rahz (06/17/11 06:13 PM)

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