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Adden

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"LBJ was a sonofabitch"
#14616029 - 06/15/11 06:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Out of curiosity, I was looking up Father's Day.
Apparently Lyndon B. Johnson made the first official national proclamation in '66 to solidify it as a holiday for fathers and Nixon signed it into law in '72.
All I could think of was a rhyme I learned in kindergarten of "LBJ was a sonofabitch" with a lilt and kind of a rhyme to it. This would've been roughly two decades after his succession to Kennedy's throne.
Since Nixon really was an SOB, what's up with LBJ?
I know a few of you were around after Kennedy was shot and LBJ completed his term and won re-election by a landslide in '64. I'm tempted to ask if LBJ was Kennedy's "Palin".
Was it just Vietnam?
What are your personal views either as a historian or a living primary source that LBJ was a son of a bitch?
Democratic suppression in the '80s? Just kinda throwing anything around.
Sounds like he did a pretty decent job outside of foreign policy.
Quote:
...winning by a large margin in the 1964 Presidential election. Johnson was greatly supported by the Democratic Party and, as President, was responsible for designing the "Great Society" legislation that included laws that upheld civil rights, Public Broadcasting, Medicare, Medicaid, environmental protection, aid to education, and his "War on Poverty." He was renowned for his domineering personality and the "Johnson treatment," his coercion of powerful politicians in order to advance legislation.
Was Vietnam still an incredibly volatile issue in the early to mid 80's? I was just a kid and heard this around the playground and school for quite a few years.
I mean, you've gotta kinda really, really suck to have children singing little songs about you 20 years later about being an SOB and they don't even know who you were.

Dys
Addendum: I wanna know what you folks think. I'm not being lazy and not reading up on it.
Edited by Dystopia (06/15/11 06:55 AM)
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love2shpongleIRL
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Adden]
#14616196 - 06/15/11 07:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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"What are your personal views either as a historian or a living primary source that LBJ was a son of a bitch?" I wasn't alive then, but in my opinion, the great society program was one of the biggest policy failures in us history. From CAPS, head start,VISTA,housing projects, tax cuts combined with a spending bill, etc etc. While it was extremely well intentioned, it helped facilitate the crime wave of the 80's and help create a culture of entitlement that exist today. Keynesian economics at their finest.
-------------------- Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. T. S. Eliot
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Adden] 1
#14616256 - 06/15/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Everyone is a SOB
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Icelander]
#14616756 - 06/15/11 10:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not me. I'm an asshole.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14616774 - 06/15/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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And a horrid one at that.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14617276 - 06/15/11 12:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Not me. I'm an asshole.
One can be both you know.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Icelander]
#14617572 - 06/15/11 01:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, but I'm not. I'm not that accomplished.
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14617606 - 06/15/11 01:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yet you are continually striving.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Icelander]
#14617647 - 06/15/11 01:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm trying to better myself even at this grand old age.
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14618293 - 06/15/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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The loss of testosterone will aid in this change.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Taco Chef
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Quote:
love2shpongleIRL said: "What are your personal views either as a historian or a living primary source that LBJ was a son of a bitch?" I wasn't alive then, but in my opinion, the great society program was one of the biggest policy failures in us history. From CAPS, head start,VISTA,housing projects, tax cuts combined with a spending bill, etc etc. While it was extremely well intentioned, it helped facilitate the crime wave of the 80's and help create a culture of entitlement that exist today. Keynesian economics at their finest.
any facts to back that up? 'crime wave of the 80's?; do you mean the reagan deregulation programs and the beginning of the belief in the free market fairy?
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love2shpongleIRL
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Taco Chef]
#14618809 - 06/15/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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That was more opinion than fact and I shouldn't have included that in there. Reason I included it was because it caused a congregation of criminals within the housing projects. 80's and 90's crime was largely a result of crack and an escalation of the war on drugs. Johnson's war on poverty was a result of wanting to deal with the crime wave that came over in the 60's.
-------------------- Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. T. S. Eliot
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Adden

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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Adden]
#14621129 - 06/16/11 06:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I really expected more out of you guys.

C'mon now kids, really tho. I know at least 3 of you lived through that era.
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broken
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Adden]
#14639743 - 06/19/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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i read enough about LBJ to know he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. his foreign policy's were nothing to brag about.
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PMATL
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: broken]
#14647405 - 06/21/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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He knew we had no chance to win in Vietnam but kept sending people over there to kill and be killed. so fuck that guy
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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Adden

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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: PMATL]
#14647516 - 06/21/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Were you guys around during the era?
Was this guy like an Obama sending kids to Afghanistan?
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: PMATL]
#14647605 - 06/21/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
PMATL said: He knew we had no chance to win in Vietnam but kept sending people over there to kill and be killed. so fuck that guy
False. We had an excellent chance to win and the N. Viets were close to surrendering when we ran away and abandoned our allies to murder and slavery.
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14647635 - 06/21/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Can you link me to some evidence for this? I've heard this idea before and I'd like to know if there is any real basis for it. I can't quite imaging them surrendering.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Icelander]
#14647669 - 06/21/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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http://www.foxco-2ndbn-9thmarines.com/new_page_8.htm
Some people argue that he didn't write that but a direct citation is a direct citation. At any rate I have no doubt that it was completely within our means to defeat them. The politicians totally tied the hands of the military. Why did we stop bombing Hanoi? Not for any military reason.
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14647703 - 06/21/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thanks
Well we could have always nuked the whole country too. Personally I think that would be the way to win all these conflicts quickly and save a lot of our boys. We could watch it all on TV and be awed by the beautiful mushroom clouds. I recently saw a documentary on the bomb and they released a lot of color photos taken by the military of the bombs that were classified. I was stunned by how beautiful they were. I can only imagine what it would be like to be near ground zero but have some seconds before you were hit. Watching it come at you would be very cool. As long as you were not a survivor I can't think of an easier way to die.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Icelander]
#14647762 - 06/21/11 10:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Although we had the capability to nuke them I think that might have been a bit much for their pals. Also totally unnecessary.
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14647777 - 06/21/11 10:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Saving thousands of US soldiers is unnecessary?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Icelander]
#14647904 - 06/21/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Saving thousands of US soldiers is unnecessary?
I don't know that that would be the result. I have reasons to believe otherwise. Like a belief that nuking that little shithole would result in some rather unpleasant reaction, and I don't mean in the press.
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14648247 - 06/21/11 12:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Sure would be fun however to see all those pretty explosions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Icelander]
#14648556 - 06/21/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It really is a shame they stopped the tests. We could have dropped and headed to, I believe it was, Nevada for the show.
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14648752 - 06/21/11 02:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nevada is close and really not being used for much. 
I was living in Seattle when Mt. St Helens went off. That may be the closest I ever come to seeing something like that in person. It was really cool.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Icelander]
#14648984 - 06/21/11 02:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Nevada is close and really not being used for much. 
I was living in Seattle when Mt. St Helens went off. That may be the closest I ever come to seeing something like that in person. It was really cool.
From what I seem to recall having read that was like the equivalent of a thousand nukes or something.
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Icelander
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14648991 - 06/21/11 03:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It flattened mile upon mile of trees and not one left standing that's all I know.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PMATL
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: Adden]
#14652229 - 06/22/11 02:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dystopia said: Was this guy like an Obama sending kids to Afghanistan?
No. Vietnam had a draft.
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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EntheogenicPeace
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14655216 - 06/22/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/06/22 06:29 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Yes, occupy a foreign country against the will of the occupied people, so that they may have "freedom." That's perfectly rational. The U.S. never would have "won" as the majority of ppl in SE Asia opposed the occupation and its puppets.
The majority of the people in the sovereign nation of South Vietnam asked for our help in preventing the occupation of their country by the North Vietnamese aggressors. Are you well?Quote:
This is such common knowledge among people of the world, it's sad to think you would demand evidence to know that the occupation & the government that it was propping up (which collapsed almost immediately when the U.S. imperialists finally left in defeat, indicating its total lack of popular support) were not supported by a majority.
Apparently the common knowledge you speak of is only found in beret wearing fatheads in cafes about university campuses. The US never occupied, nor was it interested in occupying any Vietnamese nation.Quote:
There's a reason the U.S. needed hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops there & dropped more bombs & caused cancers & birth defects still seen today (mostly in the south on the ppl we claimed we were there to "liberate") than all of Europe during WWII, while the nationalist/anti-colonialist faction didn't require foreign soldiers to fight there battles.
Too bad the politicians and idiots in the media demanded that they drop bombs only in peasant areas instead of where they should have been dropped. Which was on Hanoi.Quote:
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. To the U.S. & Israel the apartheid government of South Africa represented freedom, while Nelson Mandela & the ANC were terrorists; most of the rest of the world saw it differently. What you call "freedom" most of the world's people call colonialism & imperialism.
Liar. How many South Vietnamese people were murdered when the ChiCom proxies prevailed? Several hundred thousand. And then we can probably toss in the ascendancy of your friends the Khmer Rouge which almost certainly never would have come to power if S. Vietnam had not been over-run by communist murderers and slavers.
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EntheogenicPeace
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14659864 - 06/23/11 01:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/06/22 06:31 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Yet another one who thinks the US installed a dictator without the use of its military, which is quite different from how the Soviets "installed" their man in Afghanistan.
Your paranoid delusion of the omnipotence of the CIA is astonishing considering how inept they have proven themselves to be. I'm just sorry they didn't get the chance to properly torture your hero Che, the mass murderer.
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EntheogenicPeace
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/06/22 06:32 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Here's the overview of something you probably hadn't previously heard of: the 1979 fighting between the Vietnamese & Chinese that resulted in tens of thousands of deaths between the two sides.
Something you probably didn't know, they are still in a territorial dispute. They broke up five years after we left. So what? The Chicoms have always been imperialists.Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War
But yes, puppets and their puppet masters frequently go to war with each other... just like how the U.S. bombed/is bombing in Egypt, Yemen, & Bahrain to defend pro-democracy advocates from repression by authoritarian governments. Keep living the rich neocon fantasy life.
Yemen? You mean this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11918037 Good. We blew up terrorists. Are you sorry bin Laden is dead?
Egypt? I found nothing.
Bahrain? Ditto.
Keep living the rich nutcase reality denial life.
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zappaisgod
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
P.S. Here's the Wikipedia section on how Diem came to power, clearly a real champion of freedom & democracy.
Quote:
Diệm's appointment came after the French had been defeated at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu and were ready to withdraw from Indochina. At the start of 1955, French Indochina was dissolved, leaving Diệm in temporary control of the south.[11] A referendum was scheduled for October 23, 1955 to determine the future direction of the south. It was contested by Bảo Đại, the Emperor, advocating the restoration of the monarchy, while Diệm ran on a republican platform. The elections were held, with Diệm's brother and confidant Ngô Đình Nhu, the leader of the family's Can Lao Party, which supplied Diệm's electoral base, organising and supervising the elections.[12][13] Campaigning for Bảo Đại was prohibited, and the result was rigged, with Bảo Đại supporters attacked by Nhu's workers. Diệm recorded 98.2% of the vote, including 605,025 votes in Saigon, where only 450,000 voters were registered. Diệm's tally also exceeded the registration numbers in other districts.[12][14] Three days later, Diệm proclaimed the formation of the Republic of Vietnam, naming himself President.
Under the 1954 Geneva Accords, Vietnam was to undergo elections in 1956 to reunify the country. Diệm, noting that South Vietnam was not a party to the convention, canceled these. Criticising the Communists, he justified the electoral cancellation by claiming that the 1956 elections would be "meaningful only on the condition that they are absolutely free", despite his numerically impossible tally in the 1955 contest.[15]
After coming under pressure from within the country and the United States, Diệm agreed to hold legislative elections in August 1959 for South Vietnam. Newspapers were not allowed to publish names of independent candidates or their policies, and political meetings exceeding five people were prohibited. Candidates were disqualified for petty reasons such as acts of vandalism against campaign posters. In the rural areas, candidates who ran were threatened using charges of conspiracy with the Vietcong, which carried the death penalty. Phan Quang Dan, the government's most prominent critic, was allowed to run. Despite the deployment of 8,000 ARVN plainclothes troops into his district to vote, Dan still won with a 6–1 ratio. The busing of soldiers occurred across the country, and when the new assembly convened, Dan was arrested.[16][17]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Diem
Here's the Wikipedia entry on how Ho Chi Minh came to power:
Quote:
In 1945, in a power struggle, the Việt Minh killed members of rival groups, such as the leader of the Constitutional Party, the head of the Party for Independence, and Ngô Đình Diệm’s brother, Ngô Ðình Khôi.[17] Purges and killings of Trotskyists, the rival anti-Stalinist communists, have also been documented.[18] In 1946, when Hồ traveled outside of the country, his subordinates imprisoned 25,000 non-communist nationalists and forced 6,000 others to flee.[19] Hundreds of political opponents were also killed in July that same year, notably members of the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang and the Dai Viet Quoc Dan Dang.[20] All rival political parties were banned and local governments purged[21] to minimise opposition later on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh
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EntheogenicPeace
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Re: "LBJ was a sonofabitch" [Re: zappaisgod]
#14660237 - 06/23/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/06/22 06:33 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/06/22 06:34 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: So you acknowledge that the two (Vietnamese & Chinese) don't like each other.... no dispute here. Did I say the Vietnamese were Chinese puppets?
Lol, what I said was sarcasm, to note that we haven't taken military actions against these authoritarian governments that we send arms, provide training to their security forces, & send other subsidies to... as they violently repress democracy. The point was to show that if the Vietnamese were puppets of the Chinese, the two would not have fought a war with each other, just like the U.S. won't go to war with these three (or other pro-Western) dictatorships in the region.
Did I say the Vietnamese were Chinese puppets? Now or then? No I did not. I said they were Chicom proxies. The Chicoms helped them fight us. That's it. They did even more than that in Korea. Castro wasn't a Soviet puppet either but he certainly was a Soviet proxy.
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