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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deff]
#14667803 - 06/24/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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truly realizing it means you never get deluded into experiencing a sense of self again, it's a complete shift in your being and brings about the cessation of pretty much all suffering. intellectual understanding reduces suffering too, but not to the same degree.
the benefits are complete peace, complete acceptance, no inner drama and turmoil again, etc
OK wait just a minute. You sound like you're reading from a script. Do you know this through experience or through intellect? Cause I'm going to have to ask how you know this for sure? Cause your saying it like you have experienced all this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#14667813 - 06/24/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said: Yeah I have better things to do than post here 
I seriously doubt that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Icelander]
#14667852 - 06/24/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Usually I do
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Icelander]
#14668178 - 06/24/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: truly realizing it means you never get deluded into experiencing a sense of self again, it's a complete shift in your being and brings about the cessation of pretty much all suffering. intellectual understanding reduces suffering too, but not to the same degree.
the benefits are complete peace, complete acceptance, no inner drama and turmoil again, etc
OK wait just a minute. You sound like you're reading from a script. Do you know this through experience or through intellect? Cause I'm going to have to ask how you know this for sure? Cause your saying it like you have experienced all this. 
it's my buddhist salespitch script 
i've experienced the benefits from meditating on this stuff, not anywhere close to full realization, but enough to see what that would entail. of course this is my own experience, and YMMV and all that stuff. it really isn't that hard to believe i don't think, it's very logical. the more sense of self there is the more suffering. as it diminishes, the more peace, acceptance, etc. it just takes some persistent study and meditation, and it all unfolds. it's nothing unusual when you consider its mechanism, but it's an extremely valuable realization
i've gotta remember which forum i'm in haha
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#14668717 - 06/25/11 01:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I might feel and think different each single day I wake up, but I never woke up in another's body; so as I see, there must be at least this quality which makes it my self.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#14669163 - 06/25/11 05:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said: Usually I do
Better is relative. All things are equal ultimately wouldn't you agree? So while you may have other things to do nothing is "better" than posting here with me at the shroom
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deff]
#14669168 - 06/25/11 05:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
Quote:
Icelander said: truly realizing it means you never get deluded into experiencing a sense of self again, it's a complete shift in your being and brings about the cessation of pretty much all suffering. intellectual understanding reduces suffering too, but not to the same degree.
the benefits are complete peace, complete acceptance, no inner drama and turmoil again, etc
OK wait just a minute. You sound like you're reading from a script. Do you know this through experience or through intellect? Cause I'm going to have to ask how you know this for sure? Cause your saying it like you have experienced all this. 
it's my buddhist salespitch script 
i've experienced the benefits from meditating on this stuff, not anywhere close to full realization, but enough to see what that would entail. of course this is my own experience, and YMMV and all that stuff. it really isn't that hard to believe i don't think, it's very logical. the more sense of self there is the more suffering. as it diminishes, the more peace, acceptance, etc. it just takes some persistent study and meditation, and it all unfolds. it's nothing unusual when you consider its mechanism, but it's an extremely valuable realization
i've gotta remember which forum i'm in haha 
Indeed you do son. We won't play make believe here with you and while I agree there are benefits to grokking this stuff that does not mean there is some perfected all white no black state that someone will reach like all those religious nuts keep feeding you. Don't forget just recently some big wig buddhist got busted lying and having an affair which went on for a long time right under the enlightened noses of all the other big wigs who obviously knew about it but kept shut. Don't lose what little you might gain by being a dupe for a lot of religious clap trap.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Icelander]
#14669644 - 06/25/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nah bro, if you just keep doing whatever these enlightened masters tell you then all suffering will be eliminated and replaced with utter bliss and permanent relief from our animalistic instincts and emotions. I was told this by a Falun Gong practitioner and he swears that I'll transcend mortality after my next $39.99 payment.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher]
#14670686 - 06/25/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Buddhists and other mystics hold to the belief of "no-self"
That is not entirely true, and only one side of the coin. There is both a self and not a self.
"One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth? Second, it doesn't fit well with our own Judeo-Christian background, which assumes the existence of an eternal soul or self as a basic presupposition: If there's no self, what's the purpose of a spiritual life? Many books try to answer these questions, but if you look at the Pali canon — the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings — you won't find them addressed at all. In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. Thus the question should be put aside. To understand what his silence on this question says about the meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his answers. The Buddha divided all questions into four classes: those that deserve a categorical (straight yes or no) answer; those that deserve an analytical answer, defining and qualifying the terms of the question; those that deserve a counter-question, putting the ball back in the questioner's court; and those that deserve to be put aside. The last class of question consists of those that don't lead to the end of suffering and stress. The first duty of a teacher, when asked a question, is to figure out which class the question belongs to, and then to respond in the appropriate way. You don't, for example, say yes or no to a question that should be put aside. If you are the person asking the question and you get an answer, you should then determine how far the answer should be interpreted. The Buddha said that there are two types of people who misrepresent him: those who draw inferences from statements that shouldn't have inferences drawn from them, and those who don't draw inferences from those that should. These are the basic ground rules for interpreting the Buddha's teachings, but if we look at the way most writers treat the anatta doctrine, we find these ground rules ignored. Some writers try to qualify the no-self interpretation by saying that the Buddha denied the existence of an eternal self or a separate self, but this is to give an analytical answer to a question that the Buddha showed should be put aside. Others try to draw inferences from the few statements in the discourse that seem to imply that there is no self, but it seems safe to assume that if one forces those statements to give an answer to a question that should be put aside, one is drawing inferences where they shouldn't be drawn. So, instead of answering "no" to the question of whether or not there is a self — interconnected or separate, eternal or not — the Buddha felt that the question was misguided to begin with. Why? No matter how you define the line between "self" and "other," the notion of self involves an element of self-identification and clinging, and thus suffering and stress. This holds as much for an interconnected self, which recognizes no "other," as it does for a separate self. If one identifies with all of nature, one is pained by every felled tree. It also holds for an entirely "other" universe, in which the sense of alienation and futility would become so debilitating as to make the quest for happiness — one's own or that of others — impossible. For these reasons, the Buddha advised paying no attention to such questions as "Do I exist?" or "Don't I exist?" for however you answer them, they lead to suffering and stress. To avoid the suffering implicit in questions of "self" and "other," he offered an alternative way of dividing up experience: the four Noble Truths of stress, its cause, its cessation, and the path to its cessation. Rather than viewing these truths as pertaining to self or other, he said, one should recognize them simply for what they are, in and of themselves, as they are directly experienced, and then perform the duty appropriate to each. Stress should be comprehended, its cause abandoned, its cessation realized, and the path to its cessation developed. These duties form the context in which the anatta doctrine is best understood. If you develop the path of virtue, concentration, and discernment to a state of calm well-being and use that calm state to look at experience in terms of the Noble Truths, the questions that occur to the mind are not "Is there a self? What is my self?" but rather "Am I suffering stress because I'm holding onto this particular phenomenon? Is it really me, myself, or mine? If it's stressful but not really me or mine, why hold on?" These last questions merit straightforward answers, as they then help you to comprehend stress and to chip away at the attachment and clinging — the residual sense of self-identification — that cause it, until ultimately all traces of self-identification are gone and all that's left is limitless freedom. In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html
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Solving Ennui
Odd Ball



Registered: 09/01/10
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: teknix]
#14672274 - 06/25/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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another method of complete denial of reality, giving up the belief in the self allows us to say, oh they are beating me down but its ok, its not ok, there is a you, and your life might really suck, in fact some of you might be better of if there wasn't a you, but you do exist, i cant prove quantitatively that you exist, but i think there is more evidence in that direction, it's great to be able to play mind tricks on yourself but its better to accept real life for what it really is
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Solving Ennui]
#14672297 - 06/25/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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saying there's no self isn't saying there's no experience, just that there's no centralized agent responsible for the experience as is commonly mentally assumed
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Solving Ennui
Odd Ball



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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deff]
#14672314 - 06/25/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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from my perspective there is a me, therfore when you hit me in the face, i attribute the experience as being towards me, my subjective experience is my reality, i can alter that reality for me even if it stays the same for you, i've always failed to see the relevance of the existance or lack there of, of the ego, as it doesn't apply to alot in this world
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roboto212
Stranger

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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Solving Ennui]
#14675209 - 06/26/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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if the universe is empty of a self, of an "I", who is suffering.... "who am I?"
-------------------- ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ
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roboto212
Stranger

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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: roboto212]
#14675217 - 06/26/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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the universe is just happening, and we can either be sucked into its play, or see emptiness in this moment and Relax into that which we have always been.
just relax
-------------------- ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Solving Ennui]
#14675326 - 06/26/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Solving Ennui said: another method of complete denial of reality, giving up the belief in the self allows us to say, oh they are beating me down but its ok, its not ok, there is a you, and your life might really suck, in fact some of you might be better of if there wasn't a you, but you do exist, i cant prove quantitatively that you exist, but i think there is more evidence in that direction, it's great to be able to play mind tricks on yourself but its better to accept real life for what it really is
It isn't really denial, but acceptance of the inevitable.
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Solving Ennui
Odd Ball



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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: teknix]
#14676741 - 06/26/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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the only thing inevitable is death, everything else before that is up to you, saying otherwise is rubbish
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Solving Ennui]
#14679148 - 06/27/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Exactly, the inevitability that this body will cease to function.
You don't know beyond that, or do you?
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: teknix]
#14679331 - 06/27/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, consciousness definitely goes "beyond" the body in terms of how the body is just another object in the sensory field of experience. I guess you could still cognize it all as being dependent on the physical functioning of the body, as so many materialist skeptics do. Me, I'm pretty damn sure matter arises from consciousness.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: g00ru]
#14679393 - 06/27/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Other than to say both is true, as they could be co-dependent.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: g00ru]
#14679435 - 06/27/11 10:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said: Well, consciousness definitely goes "beyond" the body in terms of how the body is just another object in the sensory field of experience. I guess you could still cognize it all as being dependent on the physical functioning of the body, as so many materialist skeptics do. Me, I'm pretty damn sure matter arises from consciousness.
You have a right to be wrong.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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