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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: 4896744]
#14643495 - 06/20/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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So the past exists right now in spacetime? Source?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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crkhd
☾☼☽

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 8 months, 9 days
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Poid]
#14644180 - 06/20/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: So the past exists right now in spacetime? Source?
It "is" there in that it's part of the continuous spacetime manifold which exists "right now". We don't think of pencils as just the tip, likewise everything traces out a shape along the dimension of time too. There isn't much of a reason to say that a single slice of this shape is all that truly exists. Of course a lot of peeps will probably disagree with that with the whole "here and now" thing going on.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
Edited by crkhd (06/20/11 04:54 PM)
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Recondicom
Power of four



Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Icelander]
#14647688 - 06/21/11 10:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: IMO the self is a program, a structure, formed as an emergent property of brain function. As I think of myself as me, that is an illusion. There is no "me", rather a biological entity that is alive and excited or calmed by chemical signals. Or something along those lines. 
share and yet,,. Wherever the Universe came from, we are of the same substance as it was at the beginning. The rules which made it possible are within all that exist. We transition from one possibility to another in the many ways existence is possible... the core of what we are remains... that which made us possible is the self... We hold the individual self/IP address trying to be the Big server/director of the ever changing present. Know thyself seems to be a historical kill..kill...kill. However , the gentle side would consider a purpose to the thinking about the self... a redemption of matter by thought... centering the thought on the self... loop. Out, It is (rub/mind you) an age program and perhaps a binary result of two possible outcomes: 1 or 0.
or
-------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: g00ru]
#14657344 - 06/22/11 11:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
I EXIST!!!!!! 
SOURCE?
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Middleman]
#14657492 - 06/23/11 12:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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grimmreminder
Neophyte


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 55
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: g00ru]
#14657835 - 06/23/11 02:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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A most curious question...
I maintain that there is a self, made up of our experiences, our wants, our desires, our emotions, our convictions. These accumulate over time, forming the notion that is "I". The self that I was yesterday is different from the self that I am today, today is different from tommorrow, and so forth.
When my body dies, the self that is me may cease to exist, or it will continue on if there is indeed something beyond the world that I know. But there will also be a self that exists in others, as they remember me. so I may continue on. If I have children, the genetic code that makes the physical me will continue on.
For those that think this all a dream, don't we ourselves dream? And when we tell others about those dreams, don't we always refer to them as " I was here, I was doing this"? So if the dream is us, and we are a dream, then don't we exist somewhere else, some place where there is an "I"?
A most curious question indeed...
-------------------- We have choices. Some people like to stand in the rain without an umbrella. That's what it means to live free. - Roger Smith
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igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: SteezeMonkey]
#14657947 - 06/23/11 03:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: IMO the self is a program, a structure, formed as an emergent property of brain function. As I think of myself as me, that is an illusion. There is no "me", rather a biological entity that is alive and excited or calmed by chemical signals. Or something along those lines. 
this makes a lot of sense.
but who are the "we" or "i" and "me" if all is one. why do i identify as just 1 being instead of all of them?
part of the program?
the more basic commands can't recognize that higher ones are there?
Quote:
SteezeMonkey said: Maybe the concept of 'no-self' was rooted from the idea that all is one, one is all. Everything is one, etc. 'Self' is an illusion. We are one before birth in this material world, and we will be one in death. Each individual is apart of something bigger, global/collective consciousness. So we are actually consciousness, not our 3-dimensional vessels/bodies. Therefore, 'no-self.' 
You've posed a great question and I'm not really sure.. just trying to contribute. 
this would be sensible too, like part of the command is to make the more basic commands actually finish and not matter anymore except for what they did to make the more advanced commands work/exist.
shit, i'm
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: igwna]
#14658039 - 06/23/11 05:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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part of the program?
IMO yes. Feeing separate allows us to compete and mate and pass on genetic material so evolution can do it's thing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Icelander]
#14658090 - 06/23/11 06:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: part of the program?
IMO yes. Feeing separate allows us to compete and mate and pass on genetic material so evolution can do it's thing.
makes sense, but its very cold.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: igwna]
#14658233 - 06/23/11 07:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not always, many animals nurture and play, especially with young.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Icelander]
#14658391 - 06/23/11 08:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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So... I can see some people portraying the self as a static image that includes various personality traits that they cling to out of fear of pushing out of their comfort zone, such as seeing themselves as shy or introverted and/or rationalizing their lack of guts to avoid actually making the effort to correct various personality quote-on-quote defects. But as far as the self existing in terms of a linguistic reference to differentiate between my pains/pleasures and your pains/pleasures--this still seems self-evidently existent. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Poid]
#14658419 - 06/23/11 08:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: So the past exists right now in spacetime? Source?
Well what do you mean by "right now"? This is kind of a loaded question as "right now" implies the current position in spacetime which the past obviously doesn't exist in.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Recondicom
Power of four


Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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Why do we laugh? Is it a mechanism of escaping? [Re: 4896744]
#14658509 - 06/23/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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In certain gnostic circles laughter is prohibited. Theo~rem: Redemption goes to the Self goes to the Pleroma.
-------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher]
#14667660 - 06/24/11 08:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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redgreenvines totally nailed it with the horse sequence analogy.
The concept of not-self doesn't mean we don't experience "selves" of our own, clearly we do, it just means that if you carefully observe whatever it is you experience as "yourself" you will ultimately find that it's all just transient thoughts, memories and impressions. It's a big grab bag of mental shit that you think of as you at any given time, along with external objects (including your body and your possessions) that you identify with, and it's going to be different on different days. No part of it is static.
Not-self is just referring to the notion that there's nothing solid to be found at the center of all that swirling conditional shit, nothing stable to hang your hat on and call it you.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#14667681 - 06/24/11 08:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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agree
haven't seen much of you lately?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 7 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#14667683 - 06/24/11 08:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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good post (whiskeyclone's) ^
there's a difference though between intellectually understanding the concept and fully realizing it. the latter brings enormous benefit according to some, the former not so much. and it appears there's subtler and subtler levels of self-identification that go unnoticed that have to be pierced through. we've run these mind machines for so long on the ignorance cycle, that it takes a bit of work to re-align the thing, or something
--------------------
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deff]
#14667690 - 06/24/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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What is this difference and what benefit does it bring to ones life?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 7 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Icelander]
#14667716 - 06/24/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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intellectual understanding just gives you a nice little conceptual toy
truly realizing it means you never get deluded into experiencing a sense of self again, it's a complete shift in your being and brings about the cessation of pretty much all suffering. intellectual understanding reduces suffering too, but not to the same degree.
the benefits are complete peace, complete acceptance, no inner drama and turmoil again, etc
but i think it's easy to think one has fully 'gotten it' before they really have, as there's still subtler subconscious identification going on all the time. this is why in buddhism, it's typical to meditate on no-self and interdependence and things for many years or decades, and not just read about them and nod your head.
--------------------
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Icelander]
#14667735 - 06/24/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah I have better things to do than post here
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#14667769 - 06/24/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said: redgreenvines totally nailed it with the horse sequence analogy.
The concept of not-self doesn't mean we don't experience "selves" of our own, clearly we do, it just means that if you carefully observe whatever it is you experience as "yourself" you will ultimately find that it's all just transient thoughts, memories and impressions. It's a big grab bag of mental shit that you think of as you at any given time, along with external objects (including your body and your possessions) that you identify with, and it's going to be different on different days. No part of it is static.
Not-self is just referring to the notion that there's nothing solid to be found at the center of all that swirling conditional shit, nothing stable to hang your hat on and call it you.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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