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soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher]
#14629141 - 06/17/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buddhists and other mystics hold to the belief of "no-self", but I must confess I don't entirely understand the doctrine. How do you define the self? Sites like ruthlesstruth.com approach the problem by stating that there is no 'you', but this seems blatantly false in that communication between two individuals requires a 'you' and a 'me'; by 'me' I am referring to this human. Is there more to the idea of the self than a reference point, and if so what is it?
As far as I know the idea that Buddhism teaches there is no self is nothing but a huge misunderstanding. The teaching is non-self or not-self. They teach that there is no self to be found in the phenomenal world, there is nothing to point to and say thats me.. Hence NOT self, non-self.
The point of the teaching is that our self is not what we typically think it is.. particularly the body.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: soldatheero]
#14629210 - 06/17/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
soldatheero said: The point of the teaching is that our self is not what we typically think it is.. particularly the body.
So you're saying this teaching says that the body is not part of our self?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Poid]
#14629228 - 06/17/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I buy that in an ownership sense. I don't own the body because I didn't create it and I can't prevent its demise. So it isn't "mine" to do with what I please. And I also buy that line of thought for all things. But IMO it's a defense, a release from the pain it brings to hold impermanent things past their time.
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soldatheero
lastirishman


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Poid]
#14630096 - 06/17/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm saying the teaching is that the body is not the self, depending on your perspective you could say the body is apart of the self.. the self has a body but it is not the body.
The self is the self, the self is not something besides the self. Self is self-existing self.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: soldatheero] 1
#14632714 - 06/18/11 08:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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more than anything the body is the self, but from a cognitive point of view, we suffer because of an illusion of self that blossoms out of the trails of experiencing and memory.
the body self is not false, but also it is not the one causing trouble. the mind self which is a problem is not mind itself, but the side-effect of the richness of experiences overlapping memories and vice-versa.
by observing body and observing mind, one can see things as they are more or less and that is very liberating from the "tyrrany" of buy-ing into this rich self-dream as the primary reality/acutality.
I usually identify more with my mind than my body, though I have taken them as one thing. I have spent more than 1/2 my waking life taking myself seriously. (my no-self that is, which puts me in error at least half the time).
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_ 🧠_
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viginti tres
Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 95
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher]
#14634551 - 06/18/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Buddhists and other mystics hold to the belief of "no-self", but I must confess I don't entirely understand the doctrine. How do you define the self?
I'm not sure how much I really understand the concept either (if at all), but from what I have read on the subject no-self seems to be the state (some may call it enlightenment) of liberation from conditioning/programming and the false self created and shaped by the synthesis of life experience (including other people with various motives) and weighed down by belief systems and burdens and other junk.
Knowledge that we are a creation of nature can then be seen in a different light; we are simply nature / the uni/multiverse / god observing itself and its creation. After this realization is the freedom to reprogram our "true self" and ascend toward our highest aspirations and/or just enjoy playing in the garden... merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.
Quote:
deCypher said: Sites like ruthlesstruth.com approach the problem by stating that there is no 'you', but this seems blatantly false in that communication between two individuals requires a 'you' and a 'me'; by 'me' I am referring to this human.
But remember that language is a human creation; words like 'you' and 'me' make communication easier, but can also shape and distort the way we think just as any language does.
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my posts are nothing more than fiction
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Cesar
I AM


Registered: 06/17/11
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Loc: Medellin
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher]
#14635638 - 06/18/11 10:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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A state of non-self implies remembering that you're primarily being and nothing more, like when one says "I am" but add nothing more to that. The self is related to the ego; when being sees the reflection of the self, the ego is created.
I hope that makes any sense.
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Edited by Cesar (06/18/11 10:34 PM)
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher] 1
#14636141 - 06/19/11 01:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is a self in one sense, no-self in a sense, and both a self and no-self in another sense. In any sense, anything is not a thing in it's self but an interaction between two or more other things.
This belongs in the Utter Nonsense thread.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: Middleman]
#14636153 - 06/19/11 01:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, for once I'm now more confused about this topic then I was before starting this thread. Thanks guys.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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xFrockx


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher]
#14636161 - 06/19/11 01:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Probably could have just ended it at the title.
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zoomfan
doubt 'er


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: xFrockx]
#14637094 - 06/19/11 10:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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great post, this is such a tricky thing to talk about which is why people shy away from it and see it as nonsense, saying there is no self is just a very general way of putting it, its not that there is no self, its that the idea of a self is an illusion this body/experience exists, theres no disputing that, but as soon as you start talking about it or thinking about it your dreaming about your interpretation of reality. so when people say there is no self, what they often mean, even if they dont know it, is that the idea of a self is just a dream, all thinking is in an entirely different realm as physical reality and in no way represents physical reality, yes it can be a useful tool in navigating the physical reality, but it should not ever be taken as a factual representation or interpretaion of reality. dont get me wrong i think logic is great and its ok to trust it to some degree but when it comes to reality, it can never touch it, its a whole different world.
we're so cought up in thinking that it sometimes seems like it is synonomous with living/being but thinking is just a survival tool, the real experience is sensory. almost everything enjoyable in life is sensory derived, yet we often pay more attention to our thoughts than what our body is experiencing thinking must be reserved as a tool if you want to derive the most pleasure out of life.
this idea of a central doer
-------------------- Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher]
#14637324 - 06/19/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Well, for once I'm now more confused about this topic then I was before starting this thread. Thanks guys. 
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: deCypher]
#14637366 - 06/19/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
great post, this is such a tricky thing to talk about which is why people shy away from it and see it as nonsense, saying there is no self is just a very general way of putting it, its not that there is no self, its that the idea of a self is an illusion this body/experience exists, theres no disputing that, but as soon as you start talking about it or thinking about it your dreaming about your interpretation of reality. so when people say there is no self, what they often mean, even if they dont know it, is that the idea of a self is just a dream, all thinking is in an entirely different realm as physical reality and in no way represents physical reality, yes it can be a useful tool in navigating the physical reality, but it should not ever be taken as a factual representation or interpretaion of reality. dont get me wrong i think logic is great and its ok to trust it to some degree but when it comes to reality, it can never touch it, its a whole different world.
we're so cought up in thinking that it sometimes seems like it is synonomous with living/being but thinking is just a survival tool, the real experience is sensory. almost everything enjoyable in life is sensory derived, yet we often pay more attention to our thoughts than what our body is experiencing thinking must be reserved as a tool if you want to derive the most pleasure out of life.
this idea of a central doer
Theres a solid answer for you
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: soldatheero]
#14638516 - 06/19/11 04:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: andrewss]
#14638717 - 06/19/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's all imagination. It's one consciousness "experiencing itself subjectively" - this is a perspective and not an idea. There is an awareness before the "I" comes into being, and that is the thing you feel as 'you' when you truly know there is a you. It's hilariously simple and this is why it's not being shouted in the streets, so to speak. The mystics and masters who figured it out are just as ordinary as you and me.
Then you realise, reality is your creation...
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: circastes]
#14639041 - 06/19/11 06:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also another way to look at it is that the 'self' is a concept comprised entirely of the past, and there is no past...
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: circastes]
#14639245 - 06/19/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said: Also another way to look at it is that the 'self' is a concept comprised entirely of the past, and there is no past...
Actually, there is a past. It just has a different position in space and time.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: 4896744]
#14642063 - 06/20/11 09:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I EXIST!!!!!!
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: 4896744]
#14642549 - 06/20/11 11:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is it there or was it there?
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: What is the self, and why doesn't it exist? [Re: xFrockx]
#14642753 - 06/20/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Is it there or was it there?
According to the leading scientific theories it is there.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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