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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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What do you think about a persons right to die?
    #14612861 - 06/14/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Mister Jack Kevorkian died recently, most will remember him by the moniker Doctor Death. Unfortunately he spent many of his last years falsely imprisoned for helping others and did not get to enjoy his life as he should have. I am wondering what do you folks think of this, why should a person not be allowed to end their own life when they want too do so?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Posts: 29,258
Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt] * 1
    #14612907 - 06/14/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

why should a person not be allowed to end their own life when they want too do so?




The individual's right is presumed and it takes compelling evidence to justify denying it (rather than the opposite as your post alludes to).


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14612939 - 06/14/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

why should a person not be allowed to end their own life when they want too do so?




The individual's right is presumed and it takes compelling evidence to justify denying it (rather than the opposite as your post alludes to).




I would agree that it is up to the individual, I am trying to understand why so many in this country oppose this and are ok with people such as Jack going to prison for helping someone.


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InvisibleLisonAlGaib
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14612941 - 06/14/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
The individual's right is presumed and it takes compelling evidence to justify denying it (rather than the opposite as your post alludes to).




Many of Kevorkian's patient's left written permission for the doc to euthanize them (signed by witnesses and in later cases notarized) that were largely ignored by the courts.  Personally, I think the gov't wants to control every aspect of our lives, even our deaths must be under their control as well.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: LisonAlGaib]
    #14612961 - 06/14/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Even in states with "right to die" legislation on the books, it only covers terminal patients.  Healthy people aren't allowed to die without permission.


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Offlinelove2shpongleIRL
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt] * 1
    #14612964 - 06/14/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Easy, they should be able do what they choose. I don't understand why this is a tough issue for so many people. Is it religion? Can't only be that. Maybe it makes people nervous about their own mortality?


--------------------
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot


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InvisibleLisonAlGaib
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14613121 - 06/14/11 04:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Even in states with "right to die" legislation on the books, it only covers terminal patients.  Healthy people aren't allowed to die without permission.




I didn't know that.  That sucks, well, where to I get permission to die? 

Why is suicide illegal for that matter?


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: LisonAlGaib]
    #14613171 - 06/14/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Prescription only... shouldn't be something to go find a way out of a just shitty situation


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #14613185 - 06/14/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

love2shpongleIRL said:
Easy, they should be able do what they choose. I don't understand why this is a tough issue for so many people. Is it religion? Can't only be that. Maybe it makes people nervous about their own mortality?




I think that is a huge contributor. Everyone is so scared of their own death, that they don't like the idea of allowing people to stop treading water. They would rather deny the unpleasantness and inherent lack of meaning in life, and attempt to carry on like everything is ok.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14613188 - 06/14/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Prescription only... shouldn't be something to go find a way out of a just shitty situation




Why shouldn't you be allowed to use it as a way out of a "shitty situation"?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14613201 - 06/14/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Mister Jack Kevorkian died recently, most will remember him by the moniker Doctor Death. Unfortunately he spent many of his last years falsely imprisoned for helping others and did not get to enjoy his life as he should have. I am wondering what do you folks think of this, why should a person not be allowed to end their own life when they want too do so?





I think it's more about should you be able to get assistance in killing yourself.

But I'm in favor.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14613225 - 06/14/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Because lots of people hit some real tough times and there no reason to let them just run and end it irrationally, maybe all fucked up on drugs or something.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14613265 - 06/14/11 05:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Because lots of people hit some real tough times and there no reason to let them just run and end it irrationally, maybe all fucked up on drugs or something.




People should be allowed to end it for any and all reasons. No-one should be allowed to interfere in what must be a very personal choice.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinelove2shpongleIRL
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14613282 - 06/14/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

People already do that though. By allowing the right to die you take out government interference. For instance, a patient can be totally rational, but once they state they are suicidal I no longer need their expressed consent to transport them to a hospital. IF the patient refuses they are restrained and taken anyway. It can be a tool to save someones life but at the same time I see people faking suicidal emotion just so they get a month free living at the hospital. Sounds fucked up but true story.


--------------------
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #14613313 - 06/14/11 05:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Because lots of people hit some real tough times and there no reason to let them just run and end it irrationally, maybe all fucked up on drugs or something.




Why would ending your life be irrational? What objective reason is there to continue living?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14613323 - 06/14/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

All I was answering was the OP.  Its just what I believe. Some people just need to be talked through some shitty, fixable situation.  You should have the right, nobody should stop you, but at least slow it down maybe show that it may not be the best choice.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14613341 - 06/14/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
All I was answering was the OP.  Its just what I believe. Some people just need to be talked through some shitty, fixable situation.  You should have the right, nobody should stop you, but at least slow it down maybe show that it may not be the best choice.




What objective reason do you have for living being the "best" choice? You do realize that choices are made for subjective reasons don't you? Is it not possible that someone may actually prefer death to continued living? Why do you want to impose you own preference on others?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14613424 - 06/14/11 05:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think you're looking too deep into what I've said.  If you want to end it, get a gun. If you want a medical procedure or pill get a prescription.  Either way if you want to die you will have the right to, but if you're so sure you want to do it, and do it humanely, you should be able to sit down and discuss it.  I'm not going to change my stance because of some overly complicated interpretation of my view.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14613735 - 06/14/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> If you want to end it, get a gun.

I disagree.  Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up.  And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14613806 - 06/14/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
I think you're looking too deep into what I've said.  If you want to end it, get a gun. If you want a medical procedure or pill get a prescription.  Either way if you want to die you will have the right to, but if you're so sure you want to do it, and do it humanely, you should be able to sit down and discuss it.  I'm not going to change my stance because of some overly complicated interpretation of my view.




Is your argument really that my interpretation was too "complicated"? I thought it was pretty straightforward.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Seuss]
    #14613925 - 06/14/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you want to end it, get a gun.

I disagree.  Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up.  And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.



There are plenty of ways to kill yourself cleanly without a need of a doctor.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14613945 - 06/14/11 07:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you want to end it, get a gun.

I disagree.  Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up.  And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.



There are plenty of ways to kill yourself cleanly without a need of a doctor.




Of course there are, but why does that mean you shouldn't be able to use a doctor?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14613980 - 06/14/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
I think you're looking too deep into what I've said.  If you want to end it, get a gun. If you want a medical procedure or pill get a prescription.  Either way if you want to die you will have the right to, but if you're so sure you want to do it, and do it humanely, you should be able to sit down and discuss it.  I'm not going to change my stance because of some overly complicated interpretation of my view.




Is your argument really that my interpretation was too "complicated"? I thought it was pretty straightforward.




I never said it was too complicated, I said it was an overcomplicated analysis of my statement . Your argument makes sense but it is unnecessary and adds nothing of discussion because you add no opinion you simply ask me to explain myself further when my stance is perfectly clear.

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you want to end it, get a gun.

I disagree.  Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up.  And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.



There are plenty of ways to kill yourself cleanly without a need of a doctor.




Of course there are, but why does that mean you shouldn't be able to use a doctor?




You can.  Are my statements too simple?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14614039 - 06/14/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Because lots of people hit some real tough times and there no reason to let them just run and end it irrationally, maybe all fucked up on drugs or something.





So what you're saying is we shouldn't be in charge of and responsible for our own decisions and  our own lives, you should.

Never mind as I see the conversation has progressed.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (06/14/11 07:46 PM)


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Icelander]
    #14614333 - 06/14/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If you want to kill yourself nobody is stopping you.  I don't get the issue.  Go buy a tank of nitrous and put yourself to sleep.  You ever seen the suicide booths in Futurama? It would be ridiculous to let anybody just go and kill themselves with medical assistance.  Completely irresponsible to society.  Never once did I say that it would he difficult to get this prescription nor did I say that it would be would denied.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14614356 - 06/14/11 08:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
All I was answering was the OP.  Its just what I believe. Some people just need to be talked through some shitty, fixable situation.  You should have the right, nobody should stop you, but at least slow it down maybe show that it may not be the best choice.





Ill quote myself for convenience .... where do I say anything about anybody being prevented from doing anything they want to do?  Just slow it down a little and make sure its what they actually want.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14614701 - 06/14/11 09:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
If you want to kill yourself nobody is stopping you.  I don't get the issue.  Go buy a tank of nitrous and put yourself to sleep.  You ever seen the suicide booths in Futurama? It would be ridiculous to let anybody just go and kill themselves with medical assistance.  Completely irresponsible to society.  Never once did I say that it would he difficult to get this prescription nor did I say that it would be would denied.





I think the issue is around those that are unable to off themselves.  Like if someone was too weak or paralyzed.

Fuck I have every intention of offing myself at some point.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt] * 1
    #14616003 - 06/15/11 06:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

My take on it is that no one asked me to sign a consent form to be created. My autonomy, or presumed autonomy I suppose, was stripped from me and brought me into this world.

So who's to say that after vacationing in this life for awhile that I can't justly utilize my personal autonomy and end it?

There was a case, my apologies no source, that a gentleman signed off forms for his partner to kill him and cannibalize him so he could "get off". Both had something to gain from it, although the murdered gentleman couldn't really get off after being dead. Life imprisonment even after signed consent forms.

Anyway, I dunno, trying not to be emotional here. My brother's suicide 'anniversary' is on Mon 20th. For the last few years I've had PTSD and other assorted mental issues. I think somehow in a way, if I had known what was going on in his head, it would've been OK.

In some sense, and I don't know if this has just been a justification or something logical, but it was his choice. It wouldn't have been within my realm to rob him of his autonomy by saying "No, dude, forget what you're feeling or thinking, you're going to negatively affect us all. So stop being selfish because the rest of us are."

An unsolved murder, a drunk-driver, who knows.. I can't imagine that.. but at least Joey had a choice. And he took it.

@Seuss - yes, guns are messy. I heard the gunshot and he died in my arms. Holding a convulsing body with half the head blown off, hoping paramedics can save them because you're not thinking rationally, is a pretty fucked up experience to go through.

At least he did it outside, I dunno.


But I guess, since it's really hard for me to step away from this, I just think it's up to the person. I think it's fucked up the state can hold you against your own will for 48 hours if you're a danger to yourself. Why do they have the power to dictate what we can do?

I don't even buy the 'mental health patient' part of it. Our reality is what we create by perception. Shit, if it sucks, then damn it life sucks. And it does. I hate to quote Terminator II here, but your fate is what you make.

As far as Jack goes - he was doing a legitimate service for people.

I've thought about suicide in the past, and sometimes look back on it and still even feel it to this day. I don't want my wife or kids left behind. I couldn't do that to them. If my suffering was so severe that I couldn't rationally think of things like this, then I have the right to die, and if I wanted to seek out someone to help me in doing it, I would.

@LDS - agreed. Any time, for any reason. It's their life, and no one has the right to impede on their happiness. If they can become happy by ending it and stop their suffering / turmoil / etc., then why not?

@LisonAlGaib - illegality for collection of life insurance and the repayment of debts to the next of kin. We had to pay off my brother's student loans and in no way was his 'estate' close. We weren't even in the contract or under obligation to do so. Nearly had to sue to get 8k to put him in the ground.

@Icelander - if my heart doesn't give out by 40, and if I ever lose my wife, I'm outta here. Pretty much by age 16 I knew my heart would go, I'd be in jail, or I'd have suicided out. I don't wanna die of lung cancer, I don't wanna suffer, I'm suffering enough already with mental health issues... if everything gets so bad it reaches a certain point, that line's already been drawn and I know the course of action.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Icelander]
    #14616870 - 06/15/11 10:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
If you want to kill yourself nobody is stopping you.  I don't get the issue.  Go buy a tank of nitrous and put yourself to sleep.  You ever seen the suicide booths in Futurama? It would be ridiculous to let anybody just go and kill themselves with medical assistance.  Completely irresponsible to society.  Never once did I say that it would he difficult to get this prescription nor did I say that it would be would denied.





I think the issue is around those that are unable to off themselves.  Like if someone was too weak or paralyzed.

Fuck I have every intention of offing myself at some point.




Glad I am not the only one, the day I cannot fuck my woman and wipe myself I am out of here.


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OfflineBig Worm
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Seuss]
    #14616890 - 06/15/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you want to end it, get a gun.

I disagree.  Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.





I wonder how many cases of attempted suicide ended up this way, I mean, it's a gun to your dome piece, how can you really screw that up?


--------------------


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Adden]
    #14616944 - 06/15/11 11:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Dystopia said:
My take on it is that no one asked me to sign a consent form to be created. My autonomy, or presumed autonomy I suppose, was stripped from me and brought me into this world.

So who's to say that after vacationing in this life for awhile that I can't justly utilize my personal autonomy and end it?

There was a case, my apologies no source, that a gentleman signed off forms for his partner to kill him and cannibalize him so he could "get off". Both had something to gain from it, although the murdered gentleman couldn't really get off after being dead. Life imprisonment even after signed consent forms.

Anyway, I dunno, trying not to be emotional here. My brother's suicide 'anniversary' is on Mon 20th. For the last few years I've had PTSD and other assorted mental issues. I think somehow in a way, if I had known what was going on in his head, it would've been OK.

In some sense, and I don't know if this has just been a justification or something logical, but it was his choice. It wouldn't have been within my realm to rob him of his autonomy by saying "No, dude, forget what you're feeling or thinking, you're going to negatively affect us all. So stop being selfish because the rest of us are."

An unsolved murder, a drunk-driver, who knows.. I can't imagine that.. but at least Joey had a choice. And he took it.

@Seuss - yes, guns are messy. I heard the gunshot and he died in my arms. Holding a convulsing body with half the head blown off, hoping paramedics can save them because you're not thinking rationally, is a pretty fucked up experience to go through.

At least he did it outside, I dunno.


But I guess, since it's really hard for me to step away from this, I just think it's up to the person. I think it's fucked up the state can hold you against your own will for 48 hours if you're a danger to yourself. Why do they have the power to dictate what we can do?

I don't even buy the 'mental health patient' part of it. Our reality is what we create by perception. Shit, if it sucks, then damn it life sucks. And it does. I hate to quote Terminator II here, but your fate is what you make.

As far as Jack goes - he was doing a legitimate service for people.

I've thought about suicide in the past, and sometimes look back on it and still even feel it to this day. I don't want my wife or kids left behind. I couldn't do that to them. If my suffering was so severe that I couldn't rationally think of things like this, then I have the right to die, and if I wanted to seek out someone to help me in doing it, I would.

@LDS - agreed. Any time, for any reason. It's their life, and no one has the right to impede on their happiness. If they can become happy by ending it and stop their suffering / turmoil / etc., then why not?

@LisonAlGaib - illegality for collection of life insurance and the repayment of debts to the next of kin. We had to pay off my brother's student loans and in no way was his 'estate' close. We weren't even in the contract or under obligation to do so. Nearly had to sue to get 8k to put him in the ground.

@Icelander - if my heart doesn't give out by 40, and if I ever lose my wife, I'm outta here. Pretty much by age 16 I knew my heart would go, I'd be in jail, or I'd have suicided out. I don't wanna die of lung cancer, I don't wanna suffer, I'm suffering enough already with mental health issues... if everything gets so bad it reaches a certain point, that line's already been drawn and I know the course of action.




http://butcheredatbirth.tumblr.com/post/1703984691/der-metzgermeister-armin-meiwes-a-44-year-old

Is this the story you are referring to?
If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Big Worm]
    #14616953 - 06/15/11 11:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Big Worm said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you want to end it, get a gun.

I disagree.  Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.





I wonder how many cases of attempted suicide ended up this way, I mean, it's a gun to your dome piece, how can you really screw that up?




You would be suprised. Many people are shot point blank with a gun, in the dome, and survive. Like the woman in Arizona earlier this year that works for the feds. Now a shotgun to the face, I do not think you can mess that up, but a handgun, happens all the time.


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OfflineBig Worm
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14616978 - 06/15/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

Big Worm said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you want to end it, get a gun.

I disagree.  Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.





I wonder how many cases of attempted suicide ended up this way, I mean, it's a gun to your dome piece, how can you really screw that up?




You would be suprised. Many people are shot point blank with a gun, in the dome, and survive. Like the woman in Arizona earlier this year that works for the feds. Now a shotgun to the face, I do not think you can mess that up, but a handgun, happens all the time.






wow, I couldn't imagine.  I mean, being attacked, getting shot in the head and living, is remarkable but there would most likely be people around to get you help asap. 

But trying to die and shooting yourself in the head, most likely when no one is around and still being alive but not capable of finishing the job and then waiting for someone to come in and find you, is just horrifying.


I wonder if it's best to shoot your head from the side where you're temple is, or straight against your forehead then.


edit:  not always.


--------------------


Edited by Big Worm (06/15/11 11:23 AM)


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14617020 - 06/15/11 11:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.




Why do you want him to continue living so badly? Does his negative view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your positive one? Does it seem less substantially positive when fellow human beings have a differing opinion on this predicament we call life?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Big Worm]
    #14617121 - 06/15/11 11:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Big Worm said:
I wonder if it's best to shoot your head from the side where you're temple is, or straight against your forehead then.





Best is to shoot yourself in the brain stem by shooting straight back into your mouth.  If you shoot sideways into your temple, you're most likely to just blow your eyes out.  If you shoot straight up into your chin, you might just shoot your face off.  Both of those happen pretty often. 

Statistically, gun shot wounds to the head only result in mortality 80% of the time.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14617155 - 06/15/11 12:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the great info on head shots. :thumbup: I have a helium tank myself.  I'm going out on opium, helium and chocolate donuts. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Icelander]
    #14617223 - 06/15/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There is huge money in prolonging life!

Where is there money?

Most people who want to die are either seriously in a lot of pain and/or depressed or suffer from some sort of crippling condition. All of which usually require some form of medical instrument/pharmaceutical to manage and achieve a higher quality of life with.

If these people have the choice to end their lives early, there goes 10 years of prescriptions that make the pharmaceutical industry wealthy.

There is no conspiracy!!! It's obvious that the pharmaceutical industry lies and intentionally focuses on research that propogates their profits, instead of peoples well-being.

Do you honestly expect pharmaceutical companies to care for your well-being??? You would have to be incredibly naive to think that. They are in the business of making money off of illness for fuck sakes!!!

Lobby groups are more powerful than you can ever imagine.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14617244 - 06/15/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There is huge money in prolonging life!

Bingo!  I read somewhere that  two thirds of the money you will spend on health care in your life will be spent in the last three months of your life. (your children's inheritance.)  Can't remember if those were the exact figures.

You also, in many states cannot put your pet down yourself without facing criminal charges. For any reason.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Icelander]
    #14617296 - 06/15/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
There is huge money in prolonging life!

Bingo!  I read somewhere that  two thirds of the money you will spend on health care in your life will be spent in the last three months of your life. (your children's inheritance.)  Can't remember if those were the exact figures.

You also, in many states cannot put your pet down yourself without facing criminal charges. For any reason.




Yeah, its easy for me and you to accept this because we know how ones body given the right nutrition and physical activity can heal itself.

I would never expect anyone who doesn't know how easy most diseases are healed with a proper diet/activity.

Most will just think I am crazy.

:shrug:

My brothers skin disorder which he had for 5 years and cost our family over 5 000 dollars in creams/pharma drugs, was healed in one month in following a regimen of high greens, veggies, fruits, nuts and fish intake. He even had the occasional pizza and chicken/rice.

3 years later and still no show of a relapse and man does this kid eat unhealthy now....

thanks for nothing!!1


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14617309 - 06/15/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Culturally people are so against it because mainstream media talks a lot of trash against suicide and keeps the subject taboo in many peoples minds. Historically this has been the case atleast.

Obviously there is religious nuts who think god decides when you should go and move to imply their way of thinking on your mind.....


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14617848 - 06/15/11 02:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.




Why do you want him to continue living so badly? Does his negative view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your positive one? Does it seem less substantially positive when fellow human beings have a differing opinion on this predicament we call life?





Dude... your "argument " makes no sense once again.  Stop with the "deep" questions


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14618115 - 06/15/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.




Why do you want him to continue living so badly? Does his negative view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your positive one? Does it seem less substantially positive when fellow human beings have a differing opinion on this predicament we call life?





Dude... your "argument " makes no sense once again.  Stop with the "deep" questions




All that I am doing is asking questions to see how you justify your claims. All you did was say how you thought the regulation of suicide should be. There was no evidence or logical argument to substantiate anything you said.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14618369 - 06/15/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Because lots of people hit some real tough times and there no reason to let them just run and end it irrationally, maybe all fucked up on drugs or something.




Why would ending your life be irrational? What objective reason is there to continue living?




Why wouldn't ending your life be irrational? What objective reason is there to not continue living?

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you want to end it, get a gun.

I disagree.  Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up.  And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.



There are plenty of ways to kill yourself cleanly without a need of a doctor.




Of course there are, but why does that mean you shouldn't be able to use a doctor?




Why doesn't that mean you shouldn't be able to use a doctor?


Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.




Why do you want him to continue living so badly? Does his negative view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your positive one? Does it seem less substantially positive when fellow human beings have a differing opinion on this predicament we call life?




Why don't you want him to continue living so badly? Does his positive view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your negative one? Does it se
Quote:

iThink said:


Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.




Why do you want him to continue living so badly? Does his negative view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your positive one? Does it seem less substantially positive when fellow human beings have a differing opinion on this predicament we call life?





Dude... your "argument " makes no sense once again.  Stop with the "deep" questions




All that I am doing is asking questions to see how you justify your claims. All you did was say how you thought the regulation of suicide should be. There was no evidence or logical argument to substantiate anything you said.




All that are you are doing is asking questions to see how you don't justify your (nonexistent) claims. All you did was question how the regulation of suicide should be.  There is no evidence or ANY argument to substantiate anything you asked.


You don't think.  People who think form opinions and you are apparently unable to do so.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14618399 - 06/15/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Good use of personalisms. :thumbup:

And you are exactly right, there is no objective reason to kill yourself. That is exactly my point. It is completely subjective because it is a freaking choice. I am the one saying that the individual should be allowed to make the choice as to whether they continue living or not. You on the other hand, are saying that the government should intervene here in what could easily be taken care of by the free market.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14618500 - 06/15/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Good use of personalisms. :thumbup:

And you are exactly right, there is no objective reason to kill yourself. That is exactly my point. It is completely subjective because it is a freaking choice. I am the one saying that the individual should be allowed to make the choice as to whether they continue living or not. You on the other hand, are saying that the government should intervene here in what could easily be taken care of by the free market.




Point proven.  For me that is.  You have no better reasoning for your beliefs than do I.  In fact, you have no reasoning, and try to hide it by bringing up new talking points.  You have dismissed all rational reasoning that I have provided.  I believe government is here to protect citizens and not providing any intervention (remember how I said you would be able to kill yourself no matter what? Nobody will stop you) would be irrational on their part. If you want a free market solution grab a nitrous tank and book a day at the spa.  There is nothing stopping you.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14619810 - 06/15/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Good use of personalisms. :thumbup:

And you are exactly right, there is no objective reason to kill yourself. That is exactly my point. It is completely subjective because it is a freaking choice. I am the one saying that the individual should be allowed to make the choice as to whether they continue living or not. You on the other hand, are saying that the government should intervene here in what could easily be taken care of by the free market.




Point proven.  For me that is.  You have no better reasoning for your beliefs than do I.  In fact, you have no reasoning, and try to hide it by bringing up new talking points.  You have dismissed all rational reasoning that I have provided.  I believe government is here to protect citizens and not providing any intervention (remember how I said you would be able to kill yourself no matter what? Nobody will stop you) would be irrational on their part. If you want a free market solution grab a nitrous tank and book a day at the spa.  There is nothing stopping you.




My reasoning is that there is no objective reason to continue living or not. Therefore, why should the government make that subjective judgement for you? Explain to me how not providing any intervention would be irrational.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14619956 - 06/15/11 10:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.




Why do you want him to continue living so badly? Does his negative view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your positive one? Does it seem less substantially positive when fellow human beings have a differing opinion on this predicament we call life?




I think you misunderstood my response to Dystopia, I was saying that I hope he never feels the need to end it due to happiness derived from his family. Yet if he did feel the need I would want him to have the help he needs in carrying it out.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14619994 - 06/15/11 10:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Good use of personalisms. :thumbup:

And you are exactly right, there is no objective reason to kill yourself. That is exactly my point. It is completely subjective because it is a freaking choice. I am the one saying that the individual should be allowed to make the choice as to whether they continue living or not. You on the other hand, are saying that the government should intervene here in what could easily be taken care of by the free market.




I may be mistaken but you can definitely make a decision to end your life for objective reasons. If I for instance was a paraplegic I would want to die, it is not based on my feelings, it is based on fact. I know that I would be a burden on others I love and they could not enjoy their life as much due to my disability. I would never be able to have sex with my woman, I could not cook myself carbonara, I would not be able to raise a garden or butcher my own meat, all things I feel are necessary to my overall well being. If I could not do these things I would have myself killed, not because I am letting my emotions get the best of me, but because objectively I know I will never be able to enjoy my life. What is subjective about that? The facts are there for me to examine and I make a choice based on that, my feelings about the matter would be secondary.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14620093 - 06/15/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Good use of personalisms. :thumbup:

And you are exactly right, there is no objective reason to kill yourself. That is exactly my point. It is completely subjective because it is a freaking choice. I am the one saying that the individual should be allowed to make the choice as to whether they continue living or not. You on the other hand, are saying that the government should intervene here in what could easily be taken care of by the free market.




I may be mistaken but you can definitely make a decision to end your life for objective reasons. If I for instance was a paraplegic I would want to die, it is not based on my feelings, it is based on fact. I know that I would be a burden on others I love and they could not enjoy their life as much due to my disability. I would never be able to have sex with my woman, I could not cook myself carbonara, I would not be able to raise a garden or butcher my own meat, all things I feel are necessary to my overall well being. If I could not do these things I would have myself killed, not because I am letting my emotions get the best of me, but because objectively I know I will never be able to enjoy my life. What is subjective about that? The facts are there for me to examine and I make a choice based on that, my feelings about the matter would be secondary.




I disagree, choices are always subjective. In the case of your example, you define things such as being a burden to others and being a paraplegic as "negative". That is always a completely subjective distinction. Subjectivity is always rooted in objectivity however. In the end there is an objective reason for everything, but for the sake of distinction, this would be considered subjective.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14620145 - 06/15/11 11:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Good use of personalisms. :thumbup:

And you are exactly right, there is no objective reason to kill yourself. That is exactly my point. It is completely subjective because it is a freaking choice. I am the one saying that the individual should be allowed to make the choice as to whether they continue living or not. You on the other hand, are saying that the government should intervene here in what could easily be taken care of by the free market.




I may be mistaken but you can definitely make a decision to end your life for objective reasons. If I for instance was a paraplegic I would want to die, it is not based on my feelings, it is based on fact. I know that I would be a burden on others I love and they could not enjoy their life as much due to my disability. I would never be able to have sex with my woman, I could not cook myself carbonara, I would not be able to raise a garden or butcher my own meat, all things I feel are necessary to my overall well being. If I could not do these things I would have myself killed, not because I am letting my emotions get the best of me, but because objectively I know I will never be able to enjoy my life. What is subjective about that? The facts are there for me to examine and I make a choice based on that, my feelings about the matter would be secondary.




I disagree, choices are always subjective. In the case of your example, you define things such as being a burden to others and being a paraplegic as "negative". That is always a completely subjective distinction. Subjectivity is always rooted in objectivity however. In the end there is an objective reason for everything, but for the sake of distinction, this would be considered subjective.




I understand your point of view, I think that being a hypomanic bipolar person allows me to detach myself from the emotions that normally would interfere with decisions such as this. It would be a negative, but I am looking at it from the economic point of view, not the emotional. it would cost my loved ones not only their money, but a large portion of the time they could be producing wealth, to care for me.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14620159 - 06/15/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Good use of personalisms. :thumbup:

And you are exactly right, there is no objective reason to kill yourself. That is exactly my point. It is completely subjective because it is a freaking choice. I am the one saying that the individual should be allowed to make the choice as to whether they continue living or not. You on the other hand, are saying that the government should intervene here in what could easily be taken care of by the free market.




I may be mistaken but you can definitely make a decision to end your life for objective reasons. If I for instance was a paraplegic I would want to die, it is not based on my feelings, it is based on fact. I know that I would be a burden on others I love and they could not enjoy their life as much due to my disability. I would never be able to have sex with my woman, I could not cook myself carbonara, I would not be able to raise a garden or butcher my own meat, all things I feel are necessary to my overall well being. If I could not do these things I would have myself killed, not because I am letting my emotions get the best of me, but because objectively I know I will never be able to enjoy my life. What is subjective about that? The facts are there for me to examine and I make a choice based on that, my feelings about the matter would be secondary.




I disagree, choices are always subjective. In the case of your example, you define things such as being a burden to others and being a paraplegic as "negative". That is always a completely subjective distinction. Subjectivity is always rooted in objectivity however. In the end there is an objective reason for everything, but for the sake of distinction, this would be considered subjective.




I understand your point of view, I think that being a hypomanic bipolar person allows me to detach myself from the emotions that normally would interfere with decisions such as this. It would be a negative, but I am looking at it from the economic point of view, not the emotional. it would cost my loved ones not only their money, but a large portion of the time they could be producing wealth, to care for me.




I realize this, but you still choose to subjectively define such event as negative. There is nothing wrong with this, but you should realize that it is a subjective distinction which isn't universal.


--------------------
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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14620879 - 06/16/11 02:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How is his subjective? If I am a parapalegic I am relying on others for my livelihood, that is wrong. I have no right to make a claim on anothers life. NONE.


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14621094 - 06/16/11 05:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Why do you want him to continue living so badly? Does his negative view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your positive one? Does it seem less substantially positive when fellow human beings have a differing opinion on this predicament we call life?




I try not to think of it as negative, moreso realistic. Also for points brought up by Pileus regarding quality of life and others around you. I'd wanna die if I couldn't walk again. God bless the people that live in wheelchairs. I can't even imagine.

I guess I'm not "strong enough", LOL.

But in the end, we should all have the right to die, and if for some reason we wanted help, we should be able to seek it.

No government intervention whatsoever.




@Pileus - never rely on family for happiness, lol.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Adden]
    #14621116 - 06/16/11 05:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But in the end, we should all have the right to die, and if for some reason we wanted help, we should be able to seek it.

No government intervention whatsoever.




I agree completely.  There should be a few catches regarding the help, just to ensure that people aren't being murdered, not to make it more difficult.  Life insurance policies could get tricky as well, though most states do not require life insurance payouts for suicide.


--------------------
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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Seuss]
    #14621742 - 06/16/11 09:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
How is his subjective? If I am a parapalegic I am relying on others for my livelihood, that is wrong. I have no right to make a claim on anothers life. NONE.




So you believe in objective morality? :nonono:

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

But in the end, we should all have the right to die, and if for some reason we wanted help, we should be able to seek it.

No government intervention whatsoever.




I agree completely.  There should be a few catches regarding the help, just to ensure that people aren't being murdered, not to make it more difficult.  Life insurance policies could get tricky as well, though most states do not require life insurance payouts for suicide.




:thumbup:


--------------------
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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14622390 - 06/16/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You give a thumbs up to him when he said the exact same thing that I did, but used a different reason for his opinion?


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14623041 - 06/16/11 02:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
You give a thumbs up to him when he said the exact same thing that I did, but used a different reason for his opinion?




No, you said that poison should not be given to someone by a doctor if they are just going through a temporarily bad time. Seuss suggested regulations that would protect other's "rights", as far as making sure that people would not be murdered as a result of assisted suicide.


--------------------
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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14623062 - 06/16/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
You give a thumbs up to him when he said the exact same thing that I did, but used a different reason for his opinion?




No, you said that poison should not be given to someone by a doctor if they are just going through a temporarily bad time. Seuss suggested regulations that would protect other's "rights", as far as making sure that people would not be murdered as a result of assisted suicide.





Find where I said it how you just claimed I did.  Go find it.  I even know what post you're going to try to quote... guess what, it didn't say that.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14623241 - 06/16/11 03:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
You give a thumbs up to him when he said the exact same thing that I did, but used a different reason for his opinion?




No, you said that poison should not be given to someone by a doctor if they are just going through a temporarily bad time. Seuss suggested regulations that would protect other's "rights", as far as making sure that people would not be murdered as a result of assisted suicide.





Find where I said it how you just claimed I did.  Go find it.  I even know what post you're going to try to quote... guess what, it didn't say that.





'Because lots of people hit some real tough times and there no reason to let them just run and end it irrationally, maybe all fucked up on drugs or something."

Your words.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14623336 - 06/16/11 03:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
All I was answering was the OP.  Its just what I believe. Some people just need to be talked through some shitty, fixable situation.  You should have the right, nobody should stop you, but at least slow it down maybe show that it may not be the best choice.





Ill quote myself for convenience .... where do I say anything about anybody being prevented from doing anything they want to do?  Just slow it down a little and make sure its what they actually want.




My words


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14623360 - 06/16/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Good for you. Admitting you talk from both sides of your mouth is the first step on a long road.

But you took it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14623388 - 06/16/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Except my first couple statements weren't nearly fully explained until I was asked and explained the reasoning behind them, and hey look at that, I never changed my opinion on the topic once.


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14623446 - 06/16/11 03:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Sure. We're supposed to know, or believe you.

:rofl2:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14623510 - 06/16/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What is there to believe? Is there some statement that people were supposed to simply believe me?  That I said anything that people were just supposed to take as a fact?  There is no believing opinions, you can either agree or disagree.

People didn't understand my position so I clarified it.  I already said my first posts were misleading to my actual stance, and they were then clarified.  I am failing to see how my position has changed AT ALL.

Nothing I have said is even remotely contradictory to what I previously said.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14623583 - 06/16/11 04:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:rofl2:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineorison
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14623590 - 06/16/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

they should be able to take as many pigs as they can with them.


--------------------


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14623603 - 06/16/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
:rofl2:




Ah, the "attempt to insult those who think differently than I do" maneuver.


Care to explain where my position has changed?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14623614 - 06/16/11 04:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Already done.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14623823 - 06/16/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Already done.




Where?  I still believe people shouldn't be given the freedom to go buy a pill and kill themselves without any sort of intervention.  There will be nobody stopping them, but simply throwing it into a lower gear to slow down and analyze the situation.  If they still want to kill themselves go ahead.  Please show me where this hasn't been my position (although less clear) the entire time?


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14624124 - 06/16/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
You give a thumbs up to him when he said the exact same thing that I did, but used a different reason for his opinion?




No, you said that poison should not be given to someone by a doctor if they are just going through a temporarily bad time. Seuss suggested regulations that would protect other's "rights", as far as making sure that people would not be murdered as a result of assisted suicide.





Find where I said it how you just claimed I did.  Go find it.  I even know what post you're going to try to quote... guess what, it didn't say that.





'Because lots of people hit some real tough times and there no reason to let them just run and end it irrationally, maybe all fucked up on drugs or something."

Your words.




^ This.

You basically changed your stance a little with every post though. It is not my fault that you couldn't fluidly explain what you meant in the first place.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14624746 - 06/16/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

My point is you take the words I say, interpret them the complete opposite way that I mean them, Andrew then try to use that as the logic of why I don't make sense.  Cuz I said "get a prescription" you automatically think you're gonna be stopped from getting it?  I'm pretty sure any female over the age of ten could walk into planned parenthood and get a fucking birth control prescripti


Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
All I was answering was the OP.  Its just what I believe. Some people just need to be talked through some shitty, fixable situation.  You should have the right, nobody should stop you, but at least slow it down maybe show that it may not be the best choice.



Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
I think you're looking too deep into what I've said.  If you want to end it, get a gun. If you want a medical procedure or pill get a prescription.  Either way if you want to die you will have the right to, but if you're so sure you want to do it, and do it humanely, you should be able to sit down and discuss it.  I'm not going to change my stance because of some overly complicated interpretation of my view.




First page.  Then you start with some pseudo philosophical bullshit completely steering the thread into somehow trying to destroy my personal beliefs like I'm going to give a shit what anybody thinks about them at the end of the day.  Ill argue my opinions, gonna argue my position on my belief I'm humanity because you're never going to convince me otherwise. This is the kind of shit that brings the entire discussion to a halt and it brings the level of intelligence down to a mockery of what it could have been.


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14624820 - 06/16/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

First page.  Then you start with some pseudo philosophical bullshit completely steering the thread into somehow trying to destroy my personal beliefs like I'm going to give a shit what anybody thinks about them at the end of the day.  Ill argue my opinions, gonna argue my position on my belief I'm humanity because you're never going to convince me otherwise. This is the kind of shit that brings the entire discussion to a halt and it brings the level of intelligence down to a mockery of what it could have been.




So your pissed off that i tried to debate with you in a debate oriented forum. Cool bro. :scumbagsteve:


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14624874 - 06/16/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You weren't trying to debate. shit if you want to talk philosophy and humanity I will go into that forum and discuss it with you.  All I was discussing was my opinion on the legal right to suicide and there is no reason to try to objectify my opinion on a hypothetical scenario.  PM me if you start a thread


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14627605 - 06/17/11 11:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
You weren't trying to debate. shit if you want to talk philosophy and humanity I will go into that forum and discuss it with you.  All I was discussing was my opinion on the legal right to suicide and there is no reason to try to objectify my opinion on a hypothetical scenario.  PM me if you start a thread




So how else do you arrive at your political conclusions without the help of philosophy?


--------------------
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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14628046 - 06/17/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You don't, but once again I'm not here to argue about my philosophy.  I'm here to argue my opinion on hypothetical implementation of my philosophical views


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14628050 - 06/17/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
You don't, but once again I'm not here to argue about my philosophy.  I'm here to argue my opinion on hypothetical implementation of my philosophical views




How do you hope to support your opinion beyond saying that it is right?


--------------------
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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14628057 - 06/17/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Its an opinion I don't have to support shit to prove that it is what I believe to be right.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14628071 - 06/17/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Its an opinion I don't have to support shit to prove that it is what I believe to be right.




I don't think anyone was doubting that you believe it to be right.


--------------------
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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14628097 - 06/17/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly.


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14628201 - 06/17/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Exactly.




:tard:


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14628213 - 06/17/11 01:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Exactly.





You have a right to be wrong. :thumbup:

Actually I think you position on this is reasonable.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
    #14631175 - 06/17/11 11:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
How is his subjective? If I am a parapalegic I am relying on others for my livelihood, that is wrong. I have no right to make a claim on anothers life. NONE.




So you believe in objective morality? :nonono:

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

But in the end, we should all have the right to die, and if for some reason we wanted help, we should be able to seek it.

No government intervention whatsoever.




I agree completely.  There should be a few catches regarding the help, just to ensure that people aren't being murdered, not to make it more difficult.  Life insurance policies could get tricky as well, though most states do not require life insurance payouts for suicide.




:thumbup:



Yes I do belive in objective morality, some things are always wrong, some are always right.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14631211 - 06/17/11 11:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Already done.




Where?  I still believe people shouldn't be given the freedom to go buy a pill and kill themselves without any sort of intervention.  There will be nobody stopping them, but simply throwing it into a lower gear to slow down and analyze the situation.  If they still want to kill themselves go ahead.  Please show me where this hasn't been my position (although less clear) the entire time?




Why should you have to get others to agree with you that it would be better for you to die? It is your body, your mind, and your right. Putting someone in front of a tribunal is not a good thing, many sex offenders have went before these types of panels you are calling for asking for castration or to die, and when they were denied they repeated the actions again, causing harm to others, because they were not "allowed" to end their life or be castrated. But hey they were only looking out for his well being. You shoul be the ultimate authority in these manners, only you know what is best for YOU. Actually in your case you might not know.


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Offlinenonduality
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Registered: 04/18/11
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14719021 - 07/05/11 06:14 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

There isn't really anything wrong with being sick or with dying. Who said you're supposed to survive? Who gave you the idea that it's a gas to go on and on and on and we can't say that it's a good thing for everything to go on living from the very simple demonstration that if we allow everyone to go on living we overcrowd ourselves. We're like an unpruned tree. So therefore one person who dies in a way is honorable because he's making room for others and the panic that all life everywhere must be saved. Although each one of us individually will naturally appreciate when someone saves our life. If we apply that case all around we can see that it's not workable. We can also look further into and see that if our death would be indefinitely postponed, we would not actually go on postponing it indefinitely because after a certain point we would realize that that isn't the way in which we wanted to survive. Why else would we have children? Because children arrange for us to survive in another way, by as it were, passing on a torch, so you don't have to carry it all the time. There comes a point where you can give it up and say 'now you work'. It's a far more amusing arangement for nature to continue the process of life through different individuals than it is always with the same individual because as each new individual approaches life, life is renewed and one remembers how fascinating the everyday most ordinary things are to a child because they see them all as marvelous because they see them all in a way that is not related to survival and profit. When we get to a way of thinking of everything in terms of survival and profit then the shapes and scratches on the floor cease to have magic, and most things cease to have magic. So therefore in the course of nature when we have ceased to see magic in the world anymore we are no longer fulfilling natures game of being aware of itself. There's no point in it and so we die and so something else comes to birth which gets an entirely new view and so natures self awareness is a game worth the candle. It is not therefore natural for us to wish to prolong life indefinitely, but we live in a culture where it has been rubbed into us in every conceivable way that to die is a terrible thing and that is a tremendous disease from which our culture in particular suffers. And we notice it firstly in the way that death is swept under the carton. This is one of the major problems in hospital work. When a family conspires with the doctor to keep from grandmother the knowledge that she is dying. Grandmother suspects that she is dying but probably doesn't want to know for sure and her family talk with her in such a way as to tell her that well you'll probably be getting alright in a few weeks, won't it be great to do this that and the other. Because they have this funny feeling that it is important to build up courage and hope. And so they become liars and a mutual mistrust develops, because once you are playing the mistrust on that level you tend to play the mistrust on other levels. So the person is left to die alone, suddenly, unprepared and doped up to the point where death hardly happens. And there is no derivation from it from the percuilar spiritual experience that can come with death.
- Alan Watts

Man that took ages to write anyways I think this panic to go on and on is the reason that people are against euthanasia and things of that sort. I love Alan Watts :laugh:


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