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ShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Seuss]
#14613925 - 06/14/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > If you want to end it, get a gun.
I disagree. Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.
There are plenty of ways to kill yourself cleanly without a need of a doctor.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
#14613945 - 06/14/11 07:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:
Seuss said: > If you want to end it, get a gun.
I disagree. Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.
There are plenty of ways to kill yourself cleanly without a need of a doctor.
Of course there are, but why does that mean you shouldn't be able to use a doctor?
-------------------- Live your Life!
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ShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: 4896744]
#14613980 - 06/14/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
ShroomyJohn said: I think you're looking too deep into what I've said. If you want to end it, get a gun. If you want a medical procedure or pill get a prescription. Either way if you want to die you will have the right to, but if you're so sure you want to do it, and do it humanely, you should be able to sit down and discuss it. I'm not going to change my stance because of some overly complicated interpretation of my view.
Is your argument really that my interpretation was too "complicated"? I thought it was pretty straightforward.
I never said it was too complicated, I said it was an overcomplicated analysis of my statement . Your argument makes sense but it is unnecessary and adds nothing of discussion because you add no opinion you simply ask me to explain myself further when my stance is perfectly clear.
Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:
Seuss said: > If you want to end it, get a gun.
I disagree. Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.
There are plenty of ways to kill yourself cleanly without a need of a doctor.
Of course there are, but why does that mean you shouldn't be able to use a doctor?
You can. Are my statements too simple?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
#14614039 - 06/14/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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ShroomyJohn said: Because lots of people hit some real tough times and there no reason to let them just run and end it irrationally, maybe all fucked up on drugs or something.
So what you're saying is we shouldn't be in charge of and responsible for our own decisions and our own lives, you should.
Never mind as I see the conversation has progressed.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (06/14/11 07:46 PM)
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ShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Icelander]
#14614333 - 06/14/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you want to kill yourself nobody is stopping you. I don't get the issue. Go buy a tank of nitrous and put yourself to sleep. You ever seen the suicide booths in Futurama? It would be ridiculous to let anybody just go and kill themselves with medical assistance. Completely irresponsible to society. Never once did I say that it would he difficult to get this prescription nor did I say that it would be would denied.
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ShroomyJohn
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
#14614356 - 06/14/11 08:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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ShroomyJohn said: All I was answering was the OP. Its just what I believe. Some people just need to be talked through some shitty, fixable situation. You should have the right, nobody should stop you, but at least slow it down maybe show that it may not be the best choice.
Ill quote myself for convenience .... where do I say anything about anybody being prevented from doing anything they want to do? Just slow it down a little and make sure its what they actually want.
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Icelander
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
#14614701 - 06/14/11 09:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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ShroomyJohn said: If you want to kill yourself nobody is stopping you. I don't get the issue. Go buy a tank of nitrous and put yourself to sleep. You ever seen the suicide booths in Futurama? It would be ridiculous to let anybody just go and kill themselves with medical assistance. Completely irresponsible to society. Never once did I say that it would he difficult to get this prescription nor did I say that it would be would denied.
I think the issue is around those that are unable to off themselves. Like if someone was too weak or paralyzed.
Fuck I have every intention of offing myself at some point.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Adden

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Loc:
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt] 1
#14616003 - 06/15/11 06:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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My take on it is that no one asked me to sign a consent form to be created. My autonomy, or presumed autonomy I suppose, was stripped from me and brought me into this world.
So who's to say that after vacationing in this life for awhile that I can't justly utilize my personal autonomy and end it?
There was a case, my apologies no source, that a gentleman signed off forms for his partner to kill him and cannibalize him so he could "get off". Both had something to gain from it, although the murdered gentleman couldn't really get off after being dead. Life imprisonment even after signed consent forms.
Anyway, I dunno, trying not to be emotional here. My brother's suicide 'anniversary' is on Mon 20th. For the last few years I've had PTSD and other assorted mental issues. I think somehow in a way, if I had known what was going on in his head, it would've been OK.
In some sense, and I don't know if this has just been a justification or something logical, but it was his choice. It wouldn't have been within my realm to rob him of his autonomy by saying "No, dude, forget what you're feeling or thinking, you're going to negatively affect us all. So stop being selfish because the rest of us are."
An unsolved murder, a drunk-driver, who knows.. I can't imagine that.. but at least Joey had a choice. And he took it.
@Seuss - yes, guns are messy. I heard the gunshot and he died in my arms. Holding a convulsing body with half the head blown off, hoping paramedics can save them because you're not thinking rationally, is a pretty fucked up experience to go through.
At least he did it outside, I dunno.
But I guess, since it's really hard for me to step away from this, I just think it's up to the person. I think it's fucked up the state can hold you against your own will for 48 hours if you're a danger to yourself. Why do they have the power to dictate what we can do?
I don't even buy the 'mental health patient' part of it. Our reality is what we create by perception. Shit, if it sucks, then damn it life sucks. And it does. I hate to quote Terminator II here, but your fate is what you make.
As far as Jack goes - he was doing a legitimate service for people.
I've thought about suicide in the past, and sometimes look back on it and still even feel it to this day. I don't want my wife or kids left behind. I couldn't do that to them. If my suffering was so severe that I couldn't rationally think of things like this, then I have the right to die, and if I wanted to seek out someone to help me in doing it, I would.
@LDS - agreed. Any time, for any reason. It's their life, and no one has the right to impede on their happiness. If they can become happy by ending it and stop their suffering / turmoil / etc., then why not?
@LisonAlGaib - illegality for collection of life insurance and the repayment of debts to the next of kin. We had to pay off my brother's student loans and in no way was his 'estate' close. We weren't even in the contract or under obligation to do so. Nearly had to sue to get 8k to put him in the ground.
@Icelander - if my heart doesn't give out by 40, and if I ever lose my wife, I'm outta here. Pretty much by age 16 I knew my heart would go, I'd be in jail, or I'd have suicided out. I don't wanna die of lung cancer, I don't wanna suffer, I'm suffering enough already with mental health issues... if everything gets so bad it reaches a certain point, that line's already been drawn and I know the course of action.
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PileusSonofGalt
PhungiPharmer


Registered: 05/19/11
Posts: 240
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Icelander]
#14616870 - 06/15/11 10:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
ShroomyJohn said: If you want to kill yourself nobody is stopping you. I don't get the issue. Go buy a tank of nitrous and put yourself to sleep. You ever seen the suicide booths in Futurama? It would be ridiculous to let anybody just go and kill themselves with medical assistance. Completely irresponsible to society. Never once did I say that it would he difficult to get this prescription nor did I say that it would be would denied.
I think the issue is around those that are unable to off themselves. Like if someone was too weak or paralyzed.
Fuck I have every intention of offing myself at some point.
Glad I am not the only one, the day I cannot fuck my woman and wipe myself I am out of here.
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Big Worm
Perf



Registered: 04/20/09
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Seuss]
#14616890 - 06/15/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > If you want to end it, get a gun.
I disagree. Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.
I wonder how many cases of attempted suicide ended up this way, I mean, it's a gun to your dome piece, how can you really screw that up?
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PileusSonofGalt
PhungiPharmer


Registered: 05/19/11
Posts: 240
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Adden]
#14616944 - 06/15/11 11:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dystopia said: My take on it is that no one asked me to sign a consent form to be created. My autonomy, or presumed autonomy I suppose, was stripped from me and brought me into this world.
So who's to say that after vacationing in this life for awhile that I can't justly utilize my personal autonomy and end it?
There was a case, my apologies no source, that a gentleman signed off forms for his partner to kill him and cannibalize him so he could "get off". Both had something to gain from it, although the murdered gentleman couldn't really get off after being dead. Life imprisonment even after signed consent forms.
Anyway, I dunno, trying not to be emotional here. My brother's suicide 'anniversary' is on Mon 20th. For the last few years I've had PTSD and other assorted mental issues. I think somehow in a way, if I had known what was going on in his head, it would've been OK.
In some sense, and I don't know if this has just been a justification or something logical, but it was his choice. It wouldn't have been within my realm to rob him of his autonomy by saying "No, dude, forget what you're feeling or thinking, you're going to negatively affect us all. So stop being selfish because the rest of us are."
An unsolved murder, a drunk-driver, who knows.. I can't imagine that.. but at least Joey had a choice. And he took it.
@Seuss - yes, guns are messy. I heard the gunshot and he died in my arms. Holding a convulsing body with half the head blown off, hoping paramedics can save them because you're not thinking rationally, is a pretty fucked up experience to go through.
At least he did it outside, I dunno.
But I guess, since it's really hard for me to step away from this, I just think it's up to the person. I think it's fucked up the state can hold you against your own will for 48 hours if you're a danger to yourself. Why do they have the power to dictate what we can do?
I don't even buy the 'mental health patient' part of it. Our reality is what we create by perception. Shit, if it sucks, then damn it life sucks. And it does. I hate to quote Terminator II here, but your fate is what you make.
As far as Jack goes - he was doing a legitimate service for people.
I've thought about suicide in the past, and sometimes look back on it and still even feel it to this day. I don't want my wife or kids left behind. I couldn't do that to them. If my suffering was so severe that I couldn't rationally think of things like this, then I have the right to die, and if I wanted to seek out someone to help me in doing it, I would.
@LDS - agreed. Any time, for any reason. It's their life, and no one has the right to impede on their happiness. If they can become happy by ending it and stop their suffering / turmoil / etc., then why not?
@LisonAlGaib - illegality for collection of life insurance and the repayment of debts to the next of kin. We had to pay off my brother's student loans and in no way was his 'estate' close. We weren't even in the contract or under obligation to do so. Nearly had to sue to get 8k to put him in the ground.
@Icelander - if my heart doesn't give out by 40, and if I ever lose my wife, I'm outta here. Pretty much by age 16 I knew my heart would go, I'd be in jail, or I'd have suicided out. I don't wanna die of lung cancer, I don't wanna suffer, I'm suffering enough already with mental health issues... if everything gets so bad it reaches a certain point, that line's already been drawn and I know the course of action.
http://butcheredatbirth.tumblr.com/post/1703984691/der-metzgermeister-armin-meiwes-a-44-year-old
Is this the story you are referring to? If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.
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PileusSonofGalt
PhungiPharmer


Registered: 05/19/11
Posts: 240
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Big Worm]
#14616953 - 06/15/11 11:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Big Worm said:
Quote:
Seuss said: > If you want to end it, get a gun.
I disagree. Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.
I wonder how many cases of attempted suicide ended up this way, I mean, it's a gun to your dome piece, how can you really screw that up?
You would be suprised. Many people are shot point blank with a gun, in the dome, and survive. Like the woman in Arizona earlier this year that works for the feds. Now a shotgun to the face, I do not think you can mess that up, but a handgun, happens all the time.
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Big Worm
Perf



Registered: 04/20/09
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Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
#14616978 - 06/15/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:
Big Worm said:
Quote:
Seuss said: > If you want to end it, get a gun.
I disagree. Guns leave a huge mess for somebody else to clean up. And if you screw up, the rest of us end up paying to take care of the vegetable left behind.
I wonder how many cases of attempted suicide ended up this way, I mean, it's a gun to your dome piece, how can you really screw that up?
You would be suprised. Many people are shot point blank with a gun, in the dome, and survive. Like the woman in Arizona earlier this year that works for the feds. Now a shotgun to the face, I do not think you can mess that up, but a handgun, happens all the time.
wow, I couldn't imagine. I mean, being attacked, getting shot in the head and living, is remarkable but there would most likely be people around to get you help asap.
But trying to die and shooting yourself in the head, most likely when no one is around and still being alive but not capable of finishing the job and then waiting for someone to come in and find you, is just horrifying.
I wonder if it's best to shoot your head from the side where you're temple is, or straight against your forehead then.
edit: not always.
Edited by Big Worm (06/15/11 11:23 AM)
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
#14617020 - 06/15/11 11:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you ever need someone to talk with pm me, I have been in some really bad spots in my life and having someone to at the very least that would have listened, would have helped tremendously. I hope you never get to the point of wanting to end it, I hope that your family can provide you with the happiness you require to continue going, if not I hope someone is willing to help you carry out your decision and right, to end your life. It is a shame he did not confide in you, it may have made it much easier on those of you that loved him, yet I think you and I both know, he probably would not have done what he did if he thought he had another way of quelling the pain and turmoil in his head. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, however if I am wrong, I hope he found his peace. If this offends you I apologize in advance, but I will drink a toast of champagne to his memory next Monday.
Why do you want him to continue living so badly? Does his negative view on life make you feel uncomfortable about your positive one? Does it seem less substantially positive when fellow human beings have a differing opinion on this predicament we call life?
-------------------- Live your Life!
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Big Worm]
#14617121 - 06/15/11 11:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Big Worm said: I wonder if it's best to shoot your head from the side where you're temple is, or straight against your forehead then.
Best is to shoot yourself in the brain stem by shooting straight back into your mouth. If you shoot sideways into your temple, you're most likely to just blow your eyes out. If you shoot straight up into your chin, you might just shoot your face off. Both of those happen pretty often.
Statistically, gun shot wounds to the head only result in mortality 80% of the time.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14617155 - 06/15/11 12:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for the great info on head shots. I have a helium tank myself. I'm going out on opium, helium and chocolate donuts.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AlphaFalfa
imagine


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Icelander]
#14617223 - 06/15/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is huge money in prolonging life!
Where is there money?
Most people who want to die are either seriously in a lot of pain and/or depressed or suffer from some sort of crippling condition. All of which usually require some form of medical instrument/pharmaceutical to manage and achieve a higher quality of life with.
If these people have the choice to end their lives early, there goes 10 years of prescriptions that make the pharmaceutical industry wealthy.
There is no conspiracy!!! It's obvious that the pharmaceutical industry lies and intentionally focuses on research that propogates their profits, instead of peoples well-being.
Do you honestly expect pharmaceutical companies to care for your well-being??? You would have to be incredibly naive to think that. They are in the business of making money off of illness for fuck sakes!!!
Lobby groups are more powerful than you can ever imagine.
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14617244 - 06/15/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is huge money in prolonging life!
Bingo! I read somewhere that two thirds of the money you will spend on health care in your life will be spent in the last three months of your life. (your children's inheritance.) Can't remember if those were the exact figures.
You also, in many states cannot put your pet down yourself without facing criminal charges. For any reason.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AlphaFalfa
imagine


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Posts: 3,857
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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: Icelander]
#14617296 - 06/15/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: There is huge money in prolonging life!
Bingo! I read somewhere that two thirds of the money you will spend on health care in your life will be spent in the last three months of your life. (your children's inheritance.) Can't remember if those were the exact figures.
You also, in many states cannot put your pet down yourself without facing criminal charges. For any reason.
Yeah, its easy for me and you to accept this because we know how ones body given the right nutrition and physical activity can heal itself.
I would never expect anyone who doesn't know how easy most diseases are healed with a proper diet/activity.
Most will just think I am crazy.

My brothers skin disorder which he had for 5 years and cost our family over 5 000 dollars in creams/pharma drugs, was healed in one month in following a regimen of high greens, veggies, fruits, nuts and fish intake. He even had the occasional pizza and chicken/rice.
3 years later and still no show of a relapse and man does this kid eat unhealthy now....
thanks for nothing!!1
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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AlphaFalfa
imagine


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Re: What do you think about a persons right to die? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14617309 - 06/15/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Culturally people are so against it because mainstream media talks a lot of trash against suicide and keeps the subject taboo in many peoples minds. Historically this has been the case atleast.
Obviously there is religious nuts who think god decides when you should go and move to imply their way of thinking on your mind.....
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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