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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Poid]
    #14602821 - 06/12/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

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Poid said:
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Rahz said:
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Poid said:
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Rahz said:
I guess it depends on what your opinion of the average person is.


Why would it depend on that? We need self-esteem for psychological reasons, regardless of what our opinion of the average person is.




I don't see any strong correlation between self-esteem and caring what people think. People with low self-esteem are the ones seeking validation from others.


So this means there is a strong negative correlation (if true).

People with high self-esteem must care about what certain people think about them because their self-esteem is based on the validation of those certain people.




I see where you're coming from, but I don't think the reality of the OP is black and white, and the position I was taking was also insufficient. People aren't always benevolent. Someone with low self-esteem might use their words to make others unsure of themselves in an attempt to make themselves feel better/superior. Someone who didn't have those issues might use their words in order to be helpful by pointing stuff out.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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OfflineComradez
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Rahz] * 2
    #14603145 - 06/12/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The way I look at things is, if I rely only on my own internal validation, if I say, "I don't care what other people think of me," then I'm only getting my subjective opinion of myself, and it could cause me to overlook something that I might not happen to consider, or that I might not want to consider. 

For example, let's say I am overweight and I say to myself, "I don't care if other people think I am overweight, I don't think I am, I like my body just the way it is!"  But what if I really am overweight in such a way that it would impinge upon my health or my ability to pick up girls/commute to work by bike/play basketball/get decent health insurance rates/whatever.?  Then it would be helpful for me to care about what other people thought in this instance and temporarily feel low self-esteem about my weight in order to help motivate me to get into better shape.  Although I will feel bad in the short term from the low self-esteem, in the long run feeling this low self-esteem until I do something to rectify the cause of it will actually benefit me in the long run.

I think that considering criticism from others and feeling low self-esteem as a consequence of that isn't helpful, however, in cases where there's nothing that I can do to act on that negative reinforcing impulse in order to rectify the situation.  For example, let's say people insulted me because I'm a woman (I'm actually a man, by the way, but just for the sake of this thought experiment...).  There's nothing I can do, short of very drastic measures, to change the fact that I'm a woman.  (Ditto if I was black).  So it would be counter-productive to let that negative social pressure impinge upon my self-esteem, because all I'm going to do is unproductively beat myself up over something I can't change, and this would be an appropriate time to say, "I don't care what those other people think."

In general, the more informed and considered other people's opinion of you is, the more you should care about it, and the less informed and more prejudiced their opinion of you is, the less you should care about it. 

This applies to positive social reinforcement as well.  When people find out that I graduated from Harvard, they tend to immediately congratulate me, but it would be a mistake of mine to allow this to boost my self-esteem because it could instill delusions of grandeur or perfection in me and make me overlook negative aspects of myself that I could improve, and need to improve. 

However, it is different if my dad gives me a heartfelt congratulations for graduating Harvard, because his opinion is more informed.  He is familiar with the aspects of my character that that graduation reflects.  So the same exact statement can have either no implications or immense justified implications for your self-esteem, depending on how well-informed and thoughtful the person was on that subject.

Let's take another example:  let's say I mention to different friends that I have tried psychedelics.  One friend is absolutely ignorant about psychedelics, and he starts treating me like a lowlife druggie just because I revealed this to him.  Here's where I'd say, "I don't give a shit what he thinks."  But let's say another friend is a seasoned veteran of psychedelics, and let's just hypothetically imagine that for some reason he responds with disappointment and anxiety about my future.  This would give me reason to pause and consider whether I should really feel good about having done psychedelics.


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

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Offlinethedudeman
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Registered: 06/20/09
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Comradez]
    #14603289 - 06/12/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

so i think maybe what self esteem should be defined better, that seems a bit strange
[it] is a protective shield designed to control the potential for terror that results from awareness of the horrifying possibility that we humans are merely transient animals groping to survive in a meaningless universe...”
im very sure that when someone loses there self esteem they don't immediately think of themselves as this..
it seems to me it comes out in ways like, im not good enough to be loved or, people don't like me

and we do need people to like us, but i think the phrase, don't care what people think of you refers to being yourself even if you feel like you should act differently, not saying you've done something when you havn't is an example of caring what other people think, in the most common way of thinking, but you shouldn't be careless of what all people think, use your damn head. if some douche is trying to tell you to act some way don't, but if your mom needs help loading the groceries and you just say, no fuck you i don't care what you think, your thinking in absolutes and that never works

judge each situation differently and act as you normally would, but don't only go for self all the time. sometimes you have to give in to what another person might need, most of the time you won't

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14606129 - 06/13/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

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Grapefruit said:
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  But if you're gaining your sense of validation from the parameters of society





Not quite what I meant... the part about functioning well in society has nothing to do with validation but more to do with harmonious functioning with others, where the validation (perhaps) comes in is through meeting the standards I set for myself rather than the standards others expect of me.


But your standards are based upon functioning harmoniously with others..do you not see that this means your standards, and by extension your validation is dependent on others?


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Grapefruit said:
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Well no concept is really completely solid..I think current psychological models are solid enough, in that they describe human psychological behavior with a significant degree of accuracy, and can be reliably used as an aid to increase self-understanding/self-healing.

Spiritual teachings, on the other hand, are vague and can be interpreted in any number of ways..they are not solid, and so cannot be reliably used as an aid to increase self-understanding/self-healing.




Psychology is modelled upon people from a society that is generally unhealthy...


Psychology is modeled upon several people, and tries its best to take an objective standpoint on the human mind..that most people are generally unhealthy is merely incidental, and if anything reflects more on the human species than it does on any particular society.


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Grapefruit said:
...so while the models are generally accurate for most people the treatments may not apply to everyone.


This doesn't mean that you can't learn a lot about yourself from reading psychological literature, or that you can't use what you've learned from such literature to form your own personal treatment.


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Grapefruit said:
For me, getting a sense of gratification from others feels like a lie, it just feels like a stupid thing to base my happiness on. It's hard to say why that's so but it is.


Yet you still desire validation from others, don't you?


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
I find that some of the "spiritual" (I'd prefer the term psychological because although they are not based on psychological studies but personal experience of said teacher they have no mystical overtones) methods of looking into your own psychology to have affected me more to my liking (amplification of senses, emotions and life's vibrancy among other effects) than psychotherapuetical ones, I don't feel that psychotherapy is really about genuinely looking deeply into your psychology but more about denying the reality of life to increase comfort levels and decrease anxiety, this doesn't really interest me.


Can you give an example? IMO, you just described spirituality rather expertly. :lol:


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
This isn't to say I don't ever look for gratification from others, I certainly do but consider it detrimental in terms of taking as much of my moment to moment experience in through senses and emotions.


So, basically, you don't really care about being loved by others because you feel it's a stupid thing to base your happiness on?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/13/11 01:48 PM)

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Poid]
    #14606353 - 06/13/11 01:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But your standards are based upon functioning harmoniously with others..do you not see that this means your standards, and by extension your validation is dependent on others?




Sure in some sense everything I do has to be dependent on others, but I feel there's a definite distinction to be made between seeking direct validation from others and simply functioning well within the parameters set out because you have to. What I mean is that while I try to function with others because it benefits the functioning of my organism to do so, I try not to let them effect me on any more than a surface level. i.e. Your boss may shout at you and tell you your a shit worker or whatever, so you either walk out or you nod along depending on what suits you best but you don't let it effect what you think of yourself unless you see truth to what he's saying. I saw this kind of dynamic right through the education system.

Quote:

This doesn't mean that you can learn a lot about yourself from reading psychological literature, or that you can't use what you've learned from such literature to form your own personal treatment.




:thumbup:

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Yet you still desire validation from others, don't you?




Yes but it doesn't strike me as a good thing, I spent a lot of my teenage life being fairly severly bullied by people I had considered to be friends which led to serious levels of depression untill I stopped basing myself on them and told them to fuck off. I have had a lot of success lessening the amount of validation I need from others and I consider the changes it's wrought in me to be beneficial.

Quote:

Can you give an example? IMO, you just described spirituality rather expertly.




Sure, I went to a psychotherapist once and she told me to visualise fluffy clouds and then showed me I could move my arm further round my back if I'd "Just believe!". I've also heard of freudian psychotherapists getting people to look into some frankly barmy and fairly unscientific personal beliefs of sect which seems more a cult than anything, I like freuds work but some seem to take it as gospel. Then there's hypnotherapy, and cognitive psychology which seem to be about convincing you that everything is just fine and you are a special person with a special mission.

IMO a lot of these psychotherapeutical techniques are all about convincing the subject of a different kind of bullshit so they can block out the other bullshit. I'd rather the throw the whole system out and not lie to myself.

This isn't to say there aren't certain kinds of psychotherapy which wouldn't do this. I think REBT would be one example but I haven't really looked into it much. Still even that seems overly complex to me, IMO good spiritual teachings are very simplified, direct and focus on getting the practitioner to think for themselves and look at their own psychology and reality for themselves.

Quote:

So, basically, you don't really care about being loved by others because you feel it's a stupid thing to base your happiness on?




Yeah, love is almost a dead thing to me. I put self reliance before love, all needs beyond survival needs are crutches IMO, it's aim to throw away those crutches, even if it doesn't lead to greater happiness.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14606492 - 06/13/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
What I mean is that while I try to function with others because it benefits the functioning of my organism to do so, I try not to let them effect me on any more than a surface level.


I still don't see how this means your validation is purely internal..that you functioning with others for the sake of benefiting the function of your organism tells me that functioning with others is paramount to your happiness. How are you going to function well with others if you are not validated by them?


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
i.e. Your boss may shout at you and tell you your a shit worker or whatever, so you either walk out or you nod along depending on what suits you best but you don't let it effect what you think of yourself unless you see truth to what he's saying. I saw this kind of dynamic right through the education system.


This dynamic is the pecking order of human nature, and is apparent almost in all of our institutions. :satansmoking:


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

This doesn't mean that you can learn a lot about yourself from reading psychological literature, or that you can't use what you've learned from such literature to form your own personal treatment.




:thumbup:


There is a typo there..I mean't to say "can't" not "can" in the underlined part.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Yet you still desire validation from others, don't you?




Yes but it doesn't strike me as a good thing.


That is irrelevant, though..you were saying earlier that your validation is mostly internal, and that you generally don't require validation from others.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
I spent a lot of my teenage life being fairly severly bullied by people I had considered to be friends which led to serious levels of depression untill I stopped basing myself on them and told them to fuck off. I have had a lot of success lessening the amount of validation I need from others and I consider the changes it's wrought in me to be beneficial.


I'm glad to hear you overcame all that. :thumbup:

I think it's good to not need validation from absolutely everybody, and to learn to live with as little as necessary, but I don't see the desire for validation from others as being bad or wrong. We are intelligent social creatures, of course we are going to want validation from others of our own species.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Can you give an example? IMO, you just described spirituality rather expertly.




Sure, I went to a psychotherapist once and she told me to visualise fluffy clouds and then showed me I could move my arm further round my back if I'd "Just believe!". I've also heard of freudian psychotherapists getting people to look into some frankly barmy and fairly unscientific personal beliefs of sect which seems more a cult than anything, I like freuds work but some seem to take it as gospel. Then there's hypnotherapy, and cognitive psychology which seem to be about convincing you that everything is just fine and you are a special person with a special mission.

IMO a lot of these psychotherapeutical techniques are all about convincing the subject of a different kind of bullshit so they can block out the other bullshit. I'd rather the throw the whole system out and not lie to myself.


Psychotherapy is more of an art than a science, and doesn't amount to the totality of psychology..basing your opinion of the entire field of psychology on strange experiences you've had with psychotherapy would be a tad foolish IMO. :shrug:


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
...IMO good spiritual teachings are very simplified, direct and focus on getting the practitioner to think for themselves and look at their own psychology and reality for themselves.


All spiritual teachings seem to be vague and largely open to interpretation..there is no definite recipe for happiness contained in any spiritual teaching because of this.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

So, basically, you don't really care about being loved by others because you feel it's a stupid thing to base your happiness on?




Yeah, love is almost a dead thing to me. I put self reliance before love, all needs beyond survival needs are crutches IMO, it's aim to throw away those crutches, even if it doesn't lead to greater happiness.


So what's the purpose of throwing away those crutches if doing so doesn't lead to a greater quality of life?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Poid]
    #14606620 - 06/13/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That is irrelevant, though..you were saying earlier that your validation is mostly internal, and that you generally don't require validation from others.




I don't see how it's irrelevant, I never said that I didn't seek any external validation or that my validation was purely internal.
Quote:


How are you going to function well with others if you are not validated by them?




I don't see why I need them to validate me unless I want something material from them, if I don't need anything material from them then they can choose to like me, fine we can enjoy each others company otherwise I leave, no need either way.

To stress a point I don't mean to say that I am entierly like this, it just strikes me as ideal and a possibility.
Quote:


but I don't see the desire for validation from others as being bad or wrong.




I don't see it as bad or wrong either, just undesirable, it's a personal thing I guess.

Quote:

There is a typo there..I mean't to say "can't" not "can" in the underlined part.





That's how I read it.
Quote:


All spiritual teachings seem to be vague and largely open to interpretation..there is no definite recipe for happiness contained in any spiritual teaching because of this.




To me psychotherapy seems too tight and not open enough to interpretation. :lol: Guess we're not gonna agree.

Quote:

Psychotherapy is more of an art than a science, and doesn't amount to the totality of psychology..basing your opinion of the entire field of psychology on strange experiences you've had with psychotherapy would be a tad foolish IMO. :shrug:




As I said, I don't and I'm sure there are good psychotherapists and psychotherepeutical teachings out there. I could say the same to you about spirituality, I'd guess neither of us has much experience in the others field.
Quote:


So what's the purpose of throwing away those crutches if doing so doesn't lead to a greater quality of life?




I can't really describe why I feel like that, hopefully it does, but you can surely see there could be certain benefits to not needing anything from anyone outside of matieral gains. Then you are free to go where you like, be who you like and see who you like without feeling any pain of seperation or need to go back to anyone, it strikes me as a free mode of being.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14606713 - 06/13/11 02:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

That is irrelevant, though..you were saying earlier that your validation is mostly internal, and that you generally don't require validation from others.




I don't see how it's irrelevant, I never said that I didn't seek any external validation or that my validation was purely internal.


Oh, I guess I read you wrong.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:


How are you going to function well with others if you are not validated by them?




I don't see why I need them to validate me unless I want something material from them...


I don't see how you can function well with them unless they accept/validate you to at least a certain extent..you said you want to function well with others because it benefits the functioning of your own organism, right?


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
To stress a point I don't mean to say that I am entierly like this, it just strikes me as ideal and a possibility.


Ah, I see. :thumbup:


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:


All spiritual teachings seem to be vague and largely open to interpretation..there is no definite recipe for happiness contained in any spiritual teaching because of this.




To me psychotherapy seems too tight and not open enough to interpretation. :lol: Guess we're not gonna agree.


I kinda agree with you about psychotherapy, but that is not what I was talking about..I was talking about psychological theories in general, not psychotherapy in particular. Many theories in psychology are pretty solid, as I explained earlier, and can be used to gain further self-understanding, which can further aid one in self-healing.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Psychotherapy is more of an art than a science, and doesn't amount to the totality of psychology..basing your opinion of the entire field of psychology on strange experiences you've had with psychotherapy would be a tad foolish IMO. :shrug:




As I said, I don't and I'm sure there are good psychotherapists and psychotherepeutical teachings out there.


I don't even understand why you brought up psychotherapy to begin with..I was talking about psychological theories, not psychotherapy methods. :shrug:


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:


So what's the purpose of throwing away those crutches if doing so doesn't lead to a greater quality of life?




I can't really describe why I feel like that, hopefully it does, but you can surely see there could be certain benefits to not needing anything from anyone outside of matieral gains.


Well we are social creatures, so it stands to reason that we need attention from each other..something that is not exactly material. Sure, there could be benefits from not needing to socialize, but I don't think we were built to be that way.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Then you are free to go where you like, be who you like and see who you like without feeling any pain of seperation or need to go back to anyone, it strikes me as a free mode of being.


I suppose it would be, but I don't think attaining such a mode of being is practical for humans..it may in fact be impossible. Much better to work within the confines of what we were programmed to be, and gain as much as possible from that than to strive toward a practically impossible ideal IMO.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Poid]
    #14606884 - 06/13/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I don't see how you can function well with them unless they accept/validate you to at least a certain extent..you said you want to function well with others because it benefits the functioning of your own organism, right?




Yes but I don't mean by this that I neccessarily always want to get along with others, just to watch my own actions to seek healthy functioning, i it really has nothing to do with validation from others unless that has to be there for material gains. For instance a part of the internal validation would be seeing to it that I don't depend on others validation.

Quote:

Well we are social creatures, so it stands to reason that we need attention from each other..something that is not exactly material. Sure, there could be benefits from not needing to socialize, but I don't think we were built to be that way.





While I agree that socialization is good for humans, I'd rather not if I don't like the society and due to this there are few people I get along with.

Quote:

I was talking about psychological theories in general, not psychotherapy in particular. Many theories in psychology are pretty solid, as I explained earlier, and can be used to gain further self-understanding, which can further aid one in self-healing.





Agreed.

Quote:

I don't even understand why you brought up psychotherapy to begin with..I was talking about psychological theories, not psychotherapy methods. :shrug:




If you are criticizing spiritual methods of psychotherapy then surely you must have some alternative unless you're just criticizing all teachings, which wasn't how I took it.
Quote:


I suppose it would be, but I don't think attaining such a mode of being is practical for humans..it may in fact be impossible. Much better to work within the confines of what we were programmed to be, and gain as much as possible from that than to strive toward a practically impossible ideal IMO.




I think this is really the crux of where we disagree, or rather... it's not that I neccessarily disagree with you, I think you might be right but something in me has to give the alternative a shot even if it drives me mad, I can't quite say why that is, likely it's just vanity. But perhaps it's something else, to use a UGK quote I'm quite fond of:

There is only the one thought, "How?" The one question that this organism is interested in is, "How to throw off the whole thraldom, the whole strangling influence of culture?" That question is the only question this organism has—not as a word, not as a thought—the whole human organism is that one question. I don't know whether I make myself clear. That is the one question, you see, which is throbbing, pulsating in every cell, in the very marrow of your bones, trying to free itself from this stranglehold.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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OfflineZiggy-Shr00mdust
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Re: Why do some say "You shouldn't care what people think of you."? [Re: Poid]
    #14609407 - 06/13/11 10:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well many people say it because they think you should be able to be yourself without the influence of others making you into somebody they want you to be.

I say it because worrying about what other people think about the illusion of the self you have erected simply reinforces the notion that there is a self to be worried about.


--------------------
He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it


To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders


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