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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? *DELETED* [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14608018 - 06/13/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by PileusSonofGalt

Reason for deletion: Duplicate.


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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14608029 - 06/13/11 06:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

what do u want me to reply? u don't address what i'm asking, why should i keep replies to u when u avoid every question i ask?


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:willynilly:

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14608089 - 06/13/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

closed veil said:
what would u do if the gov't gave u a check for $40,000 dollars? pay off your house? put it in a bank? they banks would have still gotten the money, and the foreclosure rate would be far lower then it is.




this is america.  most of us would take a vacation, buy a big bag of weed, a few new toys, and a few bills.  but WE WOULDN'T just pay off our house with all of it.  people are greedy when they're suddenly flush





but the money would have still ended up in banks. that is my point. why is our gov't bailing out any business? it's in direct contrast to the very idea of "the free market". banks that made risky loans should have gone under, just like the homeowners who now find their homes are underwater.

BTW- i used the number $40,000 because that what just the first bail out would have been if it was divided up to every american citizen.




We do not have or nor have we had a free market in this country, we have had times that we came close, but their has always been government intervention in the market since the United States was founded and ratified. You assume that all banks in the U.S. recieved bailouts, this is however very untrue, the vast majority of banks in the U.S. did not recieve a boilout, instead they failed. Like they should have.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14608143 - 06/13/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

closed veil said:
u have not addressed a single point i made, rather, u twist my words and twist the meaning of what i've said. so why should i make further explanations of my beliefs when u avoid every question and point i make, and instead twist my words to mean something completely different from what i said?

Quote:

closed veil said:
majority votes wins, if u don't vote your opinion means nothing in a democracy.  and u ppl keep saying democracy. u do realize the USA is a republic and not a democracy right?




u have not replied to this at all.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
...Would you trade the life of your most beloved for one million lives of people whom you do not know or have ever met? I would hope not, because if so then you have no morals worth speaking of.




Quote:

closed veil said:
how does what u just asked me apply in anyway to the quotes above it? u said money was more important to u then lives. don't back down, make a point don't change the subject!




have have not replied to this at all

Quote:

closed veil said:
i think it's unethical to borrow money to someone when u know they will not be able to pay u back at the interest rate u intend to charge. that's what the mafia does.

if u don't agree that's fine. we can't all have the same opinions, ethics and feelings.





Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
First off it is loan not borrow money to someone, second no one will ever force you to go into a bank or to a  loan shark and ask for money. You make the choice to do so, no one else.





i said fooled, you said forced. you do know the difference right? your replies seem to indicated that u don't know the difference.

fooled
1. To deceive or trick; dupe:

2. To confound or prove wrong; surprise, especially pleasantly

forced
1. done because of force; compulsory
2. false or unnatural



the two words have to very different meanings and should not be used interchangeably as u have done.

there is a word for someone who fools ppl out of money, con-man. the banks may have done it legally, but it doesn't make it any less of a con job, or make it ethical.




barley avoid the ban.:smirk: only cuz i'm usually a good boy.



Quote:

closed veil said:
the banks fooled stupid ppl into signing up for a mortgage that they could not afford. don't u think it's unethical to fool ppl out of their money?



They did not fool anyone, they gave them an option of either taking a loan that they wanted or not, it is up to the individual to decide wether or not they could afford it. The bank would not have loaned the money if they did not think they could pay it back, that is how they earn profit, and profit is what every business is in it for. Haters gonna hate though. If you went and got a loan for a brand new AMG Benz that at the time you could afford, and you lost your job and missed the payments would that make them wrong and unethical for taking the property that they own back from you? If you bought into the hype that home prices would only go up in the U.S. then you were a victim of the government, not the bank.





Quote:

closed veil said:
what do u want me to reply? u don't address what i'm asking, why should i keep replies to u when u avoid every question i ask?





Page fourteen fourth post from the bottom, I responded to all of your allegations and provided rebutals to your, lack of a better word "arguments" over an hour ago. So at what point did I avoid your questions? Ask a question and you shall get a response.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14608216 - 06/13/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
i say again, the term for someone who use unethical means and lies to take money from someone is a con-man. this is what they do, and they do it well. if you don't think it's unethical to fool someone out of their money, think about it form another point of view: what if u bought drugs from someone, and the drugs turned out to be bunk?




This is a great example of a straw man argument.  If the banks were guilty of fraud, they would be prosecuted for fraud as this is already illegal.  Banks are not allowed to lie to customers about their products.  If this kind of fraud was banks' bread and butter as you assert, they'd probably get caught for it a lot more often, wouldn't you think?

Quote:


i understand the way banks work




This seems doubtful.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14608289 - 06/13/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

closed veil said:
i say again, the term for someone who use unethical means and lies to take money from someone is a con-man. this is what they do, and they do it well. if you don't think it's unethical to fool someone out of their money, think about it form another point of view: what if u bought drugs from someone, and the drugs turned out to be bunk?




This is a great example of a straw man argument.  If the banks were guilty of fraud, they would be prosecuted for fraud as this is already illegal.  Banks are not allowed to lie to customers about their products.  If this kind of fraud was banks' bread and butter as you assert, they'd probably get caught for it a lot more often, wouldn't you think?

Quote:


i understand the way banks work




This seems doubtful.




Your argument is flawed. If you bought drugs that the person told you were real and they were fake, he commited fraud. If however you went into a bank, and asked for a loan, and they gave you a piece of paper with the terms they are requiring for said loan, and you accept it, then you get the money. You leave with the real deal, nothing fake yet, then you miss a payment and your rate goes up. You are still getting the real deal, you singed a paper saying this was ok, you continue to not pay and they take back their property. Again you are getting the full value of the contract according to the terms you AGREED with by signing. Please refute my statement, I want to hear this.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14608559 - 06/13/11 08:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Your argument is flawed. If you bought drugs that the person told you were real and they were fake, he commited fraud. If however you went into a bank, and asked for a loan, and they gave you a piece of paper with the terms they are requiring for said loan, and you accept it, then you get the money. You leave with the real deal, nothing fake yet, then you miss a payment and your rate goes up. You are still getting the real deal, you singed a paper saying this was ok, you continue to not pay and they take back their property. Again you are getting the full value of the contract according to the terms you AGREED with by signing. Please refute my statement, I want to hear this.




I think you responded to the wrong person.

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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14608668 - 06/13/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

u all con't to twist what i am saying. i never said the banks committed fraud, nor did i say the forced anyone to sign a mortgage.

i will say this one more time:

1. i feel the risky loans the banks engaged in was unethical. if you don't agree, we simply have different ethics.
2. the ppl who signed mortgages are feeling the full brunt of the recession, while many of the banks got bailed out, even tho each party is equally responsible.
3. i can't "prove" my ethics any more then any of you can. it is like asking me to prove my faith, or my love. impossible. ethics are a belief, a feeling, nothing that can be proven.
4. PileusSonofGalt, i feel your answers are weak and flawed, just as you seem to think the same way of mine.


--------------------
:willynilly:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken] * 1
    #14608703 - 06/13/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think the average consumer is an accident waiting to happen.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14608747 - 06/13/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
u all con't to twist what i am saying. i never said the banks committed fraud, nor did i say the forced anyone to sign a mortgage.

i will say this one more time:

1. i feel the risky loans the banks engaged in was unethical. if you don't agree, we simply have different ethics.
2. the ppl who signed mortgages are feeling the full brunt of the recession, while many of the banks got bailed out, even tho each party is equally responsible.
3. i can't "prove" my ethics any more then any of you can. it is like asking me to prove my faith, or my love. impossible. ethics are a belief, a feeling, nothing that can be proven.
4. PileusSonofGalt, i feel your answers are weak and flawed, just as you seem to think the same way of mine.




I do feel that about your premises, yet I still responded to your inquisitions, I was only asking you to do the same. We are not twisting what you are saying. You stated that it is unethical for these practices to take place, yet the person that signed the mortgage, whom is now saying they had been fleeced, is the unethical person. Because they want the contract to be null now that they understand the consequences. They signed a leaglly binding contract, it does not matter if they understood the ramifacations of this, it is irrelevant to say that you think it was unethical because the loan officers did not force them to do take the loan. You cannot be unethical for giving someone what they want when they came to you asking for it. If I ask you to punch me in the face, and you say sure and give me a contract to sign, and I do not read the clause that says you are going to do so with brass knuckles instead of a bare hand, and you break my face causing me thousands of dollars in hospital bills, you would not have done anything unethical. You have simply fulfilled our contract. That we both agreed upon. You should read some Ayn Rand, it may help you in understanding this.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14608751 - 06/13/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Your argument is flawed. If you bought drugs that the person told you were real and they were fake, he commited fraud. If however you went into a bank, and asked for a loan, and they gave you a piece of paper with the terms they are requiring for said loan, and you accept it, then you get the money. You leave with the real deal, nothing fake yet, then you miss a payment and your rate goes up. You are still getting the real deal, you singed a paper saying this was ok, you continue to not pay and they take back their property. Again you are getting the full value of the contract according to the terms you AGREED with by signing. Please refute my statement, I want to hear this.




I think you responded to the wrong person.




Sorry about that.

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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14608829 - 06/13/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ayn Rand, like most novelist, is boring as fuck. i would rather read about actual history and current events then apply the morals of a novelist's story to the real world.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Icelander]
    #14608899 - 06/13/11 09:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
The role of the federal government is spelled out by the constitution.  I'm sure everyone with an upside down mortgage would love it if the government came and bailed them out of it so that they can continue being irresponsible.  Fortunately, that's not the role of the federal government no matter how many people think it is.



THANK YOU Chuang, meams and zappa, we should get Falcon and Shroomy a pacifier and a spit rag, and we also need a dumbed down version of Mother Suess for these guys, just in case they cannot understand the words clearly written on the paper.



Please show me where this is clearly written in the constitution that it is not allowed.  I'm going to keep asking until I get an answer.

Edit:  I'm NOT agreeing the Government should bail homeowners out.  I'm simply asking where in the constitution this would be illegal.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
We need to dumb it down somehow so that he can understand that if a company pays you more than what you are worth to them that they go out of business and then none of you involved make any money



You twisted my words.  Please show me where I said a company should pay anyone MORE than what someone is worth.

Quote:

closed veil said:
u twist my words and twist the meaning of what i've said



Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Don't twist shit into your own little way



Pileus, you seriously need to learn to use the quote button better, and not make up what other people say.  You do this all the time.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Unethical?  Whose ethics?  I say schmucks were born to be fleeced.



A difference between liberals and conservatives?  Between the wild west and civiilized society?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
it's in direct contrast to the very idea of "the free market".



So what?  Free market isn't law nor is it in the constitution.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/13/11 09:23 PM)

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14609085 - 06/13/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
u all con't to twist what i am saying. i never said the banks committed fraud, nor did i say the forced anyone to sign a mortgage.




Yes, actually you did:

Quote:

closed veil said:
i say again, the term for someone who use unethical means and lies to take money from someone is a con-man. this is what they do, and they do it well. if you don't think it's unethical to fool someone out of their money, think about it form another point of view: what if u bought drugs from someone, and the drugs turned out to be bunk?



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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14609155 - 06/13/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

why didn't u bold the word fraud in my quote? oh right, because it's not in there.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14609382 - 06/13/11 10:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Please show me where this is clearly written in the constitution that it is not allowed.  I'm going to keep asking until I get an answer.




The constitution lists only a few specific things that the federal government cannot do.  It does clearly state, however, that the powers of the federal government are enumerated and that any powers not granted to the federal government by the constitution are powers reserved to the states and the people.  The commerce clause has been used to justify just about anything, so it would probably pass muster here, but I wouldn't agree with it.  My point was mainly that the federal government can't do whatever the people want whether they have a majority or not--not without changing the constitution at least.

Quote:

You twisted my words.  Please show me where I said a company should pay anyone MORE than what someone is worth.




You didn't directly say that a company should pay someone more than someone is worth, you merely re-defined "worth" to suit your purposes in this post and your follow-up to it:

Quote:

You don't get the concept of "what you're worth".  If I'm on a team of 20 at McDonald's, and we sell $2,000 worth of food an hour (which I used to do when I worked at my first job at McDonalds), what am I "worth"?  I realize that the business owners get to make a nice profit.  But we were making an average of $3.50/hr (the minimum wage at the time was $3.35), which cost McDonald's about $70/hr.  We worked our asses off to sell that much food, it was one of the hardest jobs I ever had.  If you think we were only worth $3.50/hr, then you're a conservative.  McDonalds could have easily paid us $10/hr, and still made a huge profit.



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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14609403 - 06/13/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
why didn't u bold the word fraud in my quote? oh right, because it's not in there.




You said the banks of using 'lies to take money from someone'.  Do you want to take a gander at the definition of fraud?  I'll give you one guess.

And wouldn't you know, there is even a federal agency devoted to fraud already.

:foreheadslap:

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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14609423 - 06/13/11 10:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:

The constitution  lists only a few specific things that the federal government cannot do.  It does clearly state, however, that the powers of the federal government are enumerated and that any powers not granted to the federal government by the constitution are powers reserved to the states and the people.  The commerce clause has been used to justify just about anything, so it would probably pass muster here, but I wouldn't agree with it.  My point was mainly that the federal government can't do whatever the people want whether they have a majority or not--not without changing the constitution at least.




and yet, the federal gov't comes in and crushes states rights all the time. the fed gov't has expanded far beyond usefulness, become bloated and unconstitutional. and are now engaging in police state and terrorist acts against it's own citizens. they don't need to change the constitution, they simply ignore the parts that they do not like.


--------------------
:willynilly:

Edited by broken (06/13/11 11:36 PM)

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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14609437 - 06/13/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

closed veil said:
why didn't u bold the word fraud in my quote? oh right, because it's not in there.




You said the banks of using 'lies to take money from someone'.  Do you want to take a gander at the definition of fraud?  I'll give you one guess.

And wouldn't you know, there is even a federal agency devoted to fraud already.

:foreheadslap:





but i never used the word fraud! u con't to twist my words and the meaning behind them!

the banks may not have broken laws, but what they did was, in my opinion, unethical. how many times do i have to say that?


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14609450 - 06/13/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
Ayn Rand, like most novelist, is boring as fuck. i would rather read about actual history and current events then apply the morals of a novelist's story to the real world.





She was not a novelist, she was a philosopher whom only wrote a few novels. She wrote Atlas Shrugged as a philosophic treatise, if you had actually read anything by her you would know this. She has many non fiction books, and many, many more articles and speeches. Her works are based on facts from history, I think she, living in a communist country, has a little better perspective than someone whom has never been subjected to these conditions.

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