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InvisibleShins
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Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ?
    #14608044 - 06/13/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I wasn't sure which forum to post this in, but i thought it would reach the most people who would immediately discount or doubt this idea in this one, thus i believe it would be most productive here. (feel free to move it mods.)

First of all, I am a very scientifically minded person, and i have confidence in the scientific method in attaining it's goals.

Okay so let me explain; lets do a thought experiment.


What is the ultimate goal of science?

I believe it is to discover a set of 100% complete universal laws of physics, can we agree?

Now, if a man did indeed discover and understand [in full, absolute detail] this would indeed elevate such a man to the position of god itself.

The ten commandments, which i believe are based on cause and effect, state #1 that you shall have no "god" above "god"

I believe "god" is another way of saying "the all" and refers to the universe as a whole.

I believe that "the messiah" is actually in reference to each and ever person making a messiah of themselves in their own right by following these laws of cause and effect.

messiah = christ

So, in this regard, are the ultimate goals of science not anti-christ?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14608064 - 06/13/11 06:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I believe it is to discover a set of 100% complete universal laws of physics, can we agree?




I think that is going too far.  To know 100% complete universal laws is to deny doubt, skepticism and the tentative nature of all scientific theories/laws.  It is an antithesis to key components of science, doubt and skepticism.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14608154 - 06/13/11 07:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

All man seeks to do with science is better interact with the world around him.  Just like man has been doing since the dawn of man.

But who cares if it's "anti-christ" or not?

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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14608156 - 06/13/11 07:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
To know 100% complete universal laws is to deny doubt, skepticism and the tentative nature of all scientific theories/laws.  It is an antithesis to key components of science, doubt and skepticism.




Would not having an omnipotent, complete, an validated understanding of universal law render science obsolete?


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14608173 - 06/13/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
All man seeks to do with science is better interact with the world around him.  Just like man has been doing since the dawn of man.




is this not vanity though?

Quote:

But who cares if it's "anti-christ" or not?




I believe that messianism and the ten commandments are based on humanitarian laws of cause and effect.

Since we are human, i believe we have no hope of ever discovering such a 100% set of universal laws.

But humanitarian laws are within our reach.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14608285 - 06/13/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
All man seeks to do with science is better interact with the world around him.  Just like man has been doing since the dawn of man.




is this not vanity though?




Is what not vanity?  Man walks through the forest looking for food and one day realizes that a long stick can be used to knock down nuts that are out of reach of his hands.  Man discovers technology.  This is science. 


If man did not begin practicing science, man would not have bibles.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14608689 - 06/13/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Is what not vanity? 




The scientific pursuit of an elevated state of technology and materialism. 


Quote:

Man walks through the forest looking for food and one day realizes that a long stick can be used to knock down nuts that are out of reach of his hands.  Man discovers technology.  This is science. 


If man did not begin practicing science, man would not have bibles.




I would say that is humanitarian cause and effect.

Lets examine the definition of science;

Quote:

sci·ence
   /ˈsaɪəns/ Show Spelled[sahy-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2.
systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.




I would not say that your stick example is systematic, or showing operation in the sense of this definition.

Man knows that stick can reach nuts, but he does not understand the underlying factors that make nuts high in trees, or why sticks are solid objects etc.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14609455 - 06/13/11 10:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Is what not vanity? 




The scientific pursuit of an elevated state of technology and materialism. 




I don't know if it's vain or not, because I'm not really sure what vanity is.  Therefore, I don't know if vanity is necessarily something to be avoided either. 

Quote:

I would say that is humanitarian cause and effect.

Lets examine the definition of science;

Quote:

sci·ence
   /ˈsaɪəns/ Show Spelled[sahy-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2.
systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.




I would not say that your stick example is systematic, or showing operation in the sense of this definition.





Modern science is merely an evolved and more complex version of the above example.  Once man starts poking nuts with sticks, he starts experimenting with different lengths of sticks and sticks with different types of ends to make the task easier.  Over time, using logic and trial and error the process by which man discovers technologies like the stick became more refined and optimized to weed out false starts.  Science is nothing more than this.

Quote:


Man knows that stick can reach nuts, but he does not understand the underlying factors that make nuts high in trees, or why sticks are solid objects etc.




Neither of those things are inherent in developing the technology to better remove nuts from trees.  After picking lots of nuts, man will learn which nuts are removed easily with sticks, which trees make better nut-knocking sticks, and so on and his knowledge of nut harvesting will become very systematic and this knowledge will have been obtained by observation and experimentation.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14609673 - 06/13/11 11:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

So can we agree that science is the pursuit of ease and efficiency?

Isn't a complete unified set of laws like i described not the epitome of that?


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14610345 - 06/14/11 03:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
So can we agree that science is the pursuit of ease and efficiency?



No. It's about knowledge, and the way in which that knowledge is obtained. You try to connect one specific purpose to science, but in my opinion, and by the definition you posted earlier, science need not be defined along the lines of a purpose or an end point. In reality, when observing scientific progress, it becomes apparent that the single distinguishable and pervasive purpose of science seems to be science itself, or the advancement of knowledge.

Quote:

Isn't a complete unified set of laws like i described not the epitome of that?



Speaking of science in terms of laws is in my opinion extremely shortsighted and neglects vast expanses of scientific territory in which absolute laws do not play a significant role. Of course, it's possible to use a more restricted definition of science, in which only those phenomena for which absolute laws can be derived are defined as subject to science, but personally, I would consider that too narrow a definition.

Would you care to elaborate how science, i.e. the scientific method and the knowledge that is gained through it, is actually at odds with the Ten Commandments? Your initial argument seems to rely on the implicit assumption that science would somehow take the place of God, in the sense that a person could either believe in God, or in science, but not in both. In practice, this sometimes is true, but I know for a fact that there are hordes of scientists who also happen to believe in God. And I think there are even more scientists who do not believe in God, but still respect the Ten Commandments. So please enlighten me: where exactly is the conflict?

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: koraks]
    #14613365 - 06/14/11 05:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Koraks good points!

I think the key distinction is people's intentions, and the goals they start out with.

Quote:

Would you care to elaborate how science, i.e. the scientific method and the knowledge that is gained through it, is actually at odds with the Ten Commandments?





It's really not at all, good point!

Scientific method itself cannot be called anti-christ in this regard.

I guess it all comes down to your intentions when you apply it.

So that leads me to the next question;  were/are all the people who are attempting to find such a complete unified set of laws in every way, including how those laws can be different depending on circumstances etc. completely complete in this regard.

Are they anti-christ?


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14615736 - 06/15/11 03:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Are they anti-christ?



I think not, by the simple fact that scientists (in the modern sense) in the early stages of the Age of Enlightenment (and much later too, right up to the present) attempt to unify science and religion (being Christianity or any other flavor), or at least strive for a peaceful coexistence of the two. So I would be tempted to believe that scientific and religious or spiritual inclinations are separate things that may exist alongside in a single human being. But I see your point: modern science as well as organized religion tend to come with some sort of belief system: a set of knowledge of how the world works and why it works that way. And those belief systems can be conflicting. As a quasi-objective onlooker, I don't think that necessarily corrupts either belief system, but it does clearly carry the possibility of creating an internal conflict within a person who attempts to unify both belief systems. Does that make such a person 'anti-christ'? Possibly, for example if he elects a belief system that excludes and even negates all elements of Christianity. But then it is still a matter of choice, and not of necessity. So I would argue that science does not automatically lead to anti-christ tendencies.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: koraks]
    #14615763 - 06/15/11 03:28 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

"So I would argue that science does not automatically lead to anti-christ tendencies. "




Agreed.

I guess that i was trying to say that the first commandment says "no god above me"

So people who would intend to use science to elevate themselves to the position of "god" goes against religious messianism and is thus anti-christ.

This is of course relative to the religion/commandments :wink: which i do believe to be based "scientific" humanitarian cause and effect.

Cool discussion.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14615788 - 06/15/11 03:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
So people who would intend to use science to elevate themselves to the position of "god" goes against religious messianism and is thus anti-christ.




Exactly. And the decision to do so, to either consider yourself god-like because you have a scientific inclination, or to behold science itself as god-like, is a personal choice, but not a consequence of either belief system.

Quote:

This is of course relative to the religion/commandments  which i do believe to be based "scientific" humanitarian cause and effect.



This keeps puzzling me though. What do you actually mean by this? That the Ten Commandments are derived from some sort of 'universal' cause and effect (if so, how does that work for people who don't believe in such a clear causality?) Or that the Ten Commandments are internally causally related? Or that the Ten Commandments have a causal relationship with something that comes after them? Please explain!

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: koraks]
    #14620677 - 06/16/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This keeps puzzling me though. What do you actually mean by this? That the Ten Commandments are derived from some sort of 'universal' cause and effect (if so, how does that work for people who don't believe in such a clear causality?) Or that the Ten Commandments are internally causally related? Or that the Ten Commandments have a causal relationship with something that comes after them? Please explain!





Basically; do unto others as you would have done unto you.

I believe these commandments, while not perfect, are a good basis for that, and that they reduce negative emotions in others.

They come from a source of love for yourself and your brothers in humanity.


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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14623851 - 06/16/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

@OP: The chance of us ever understanding things to the depth at which you state in your first post seems slightly impossible to me with an average human and probably even with a genius or savant.  Barring the large possibility that we'll eradicate ourselves or a natural disaster of a magnitude never witnessed by our species ravaging the Earth, we may get to the point of engineering both synthetic technologies/genetics to such a point that we can augment ourselves to have capacities far greater than those we're naturally born with, and that may allow us to achieve quite incredible things. 

Comparing science and religion is like comparing apples to oranges in my opinion.  Like my signature says, science is a way of thinking, and it's also a body of knowledge.  It isn't based on faith or anything divine.  It doesn't tell you how to live your life.  It won't pretend to assume what happens after death.  Religion(s) is archaic in my mind and the predecessor to science.  People used it to explain natural phenomena when they couldn't logically/rationally/empirically explain it before. 

Your comparison to the ten commandments alone is enough to make me assume you were raised in a predominantly Christian environment, because you assume there is some validity to the bible in which the commandments are derived.  You didn't compare science to the beliefs of Hinduism, Islam, Scientology, or the countless other religions out there.


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14623914 - 06/16/11 05:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:


Now, if a man did indeed discover and understand [in full, absolute detail] this would indeed elevate such a man to the position of god itself.





You say so, but you don't explain how this follows.


We know 'everything' for all practical purposes about the mechanics of systems other than the very small in particular situations.  This does not mean we have god-like power over such systems.  It still requires energy to move matter and manipulate it.  It still requires knowledge to know in what ways to manipulate it to achieve a particular end, and simply because you know of the way to solve a particular problem does not mean you can solve it- some problems are just too complex to be solved in any practical manner.

This counterexample seems pretty damning to your claim, whatever the argument for it is.




Quote:

I believe "god" is another way of saying "the all" and refers to the universe as a whole.




Why?

That is the universe, or multiverse in some speculative scenarios, not "god".  A staple of philosophy trying to abuse science to fit its ends is this dishonest changing of the definition of a term.  If your going to change the definition, then why use a word that allready has a meaning unless your intent is to confuse matters?




Quote:


So, in this regard, are the ultimate goals of science not anti-christ?




How does that follow?

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14626552 - 06/17/11 03:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:

Basically; do unto others as you would have done unto you.




That's the categorical imperative. I believe that's something different than the Ten Commandments. The categorical imperative is essentially a means to your project personal norms concerning dealing with people on your own behavior towards others, so it will automatically lead to a subjective or actor-dependent set of norms. The Ten Commandments on the other hand are a universal set of norms that are supposed to be true for all people. Different animals!

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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: koraks]
    #14626591 - 06/17/11 03:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Beautiful Koraks, that is a great example of how science can be the complete opposite of anti-christ.

Quote:

The categorical imperative is the central philosophical concept in the moral philosophy of Immanuel Kant, as well as modern deontological ethics. Introduced in Kant's Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals, it may be defined as a way of evaluating motivations for action.

According to Kant, human beings occupy a special place in creation, and morality can be summed up in one ultimate commandment of reason, or imperative, from which all duties and obligations derive. He defined an imperative as any proposition that declares a certain action (or inaction) to be necessary.
Hypothetical imperatives compel actions in given circumstances:




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Re: Science and the ten commandements. Is science anti-christ? [Re: Shins]
    #14663681 - 06/24/11 03:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well science is certainly anti-Bible, that much is true. Of course, people desperately cling to belief and so they reinterpret the Bible (my uncle believe God to be aliens, Adam to be a slave race created for mining planets and Eve to be a mixture of Adam and our animals.) At the end of the day, the Bible is a collection of previously books (a lot of them are really unconnected, they just happened to be compiled together.) Genesis was to explain the origins of humans. The people that wrote it had very little scientific knowledge and modern knowledge proves the Genesis account of creation is wrong. Science proves that the story of Noah's ark is not plausible etc.

There is little reason to keep the Bible sacred. It tells people to do horrible things (read the law codes laid out in Leviticus and Exodus) and has backwards moral laws which say owning slaves is morally right.


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