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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Cups]
    #14603619 - 06/12/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Yeah but if you aren't scared of them then even if they happen is wouldn't diminish the happiness.




Only because if I weren't scared of them then these things would most likely be innately positive, no?  Intrinsically negative experiences tend to automatically decrease my happiness, and although you may be able to warp your perception of pain into a masochistic sort of pleasure it seems as though this would not be beneficial to you in the long run.  :dominatrix:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
    #14603663 - 06/12/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:

But you raise a good point.  Think of pain from the perspective of a tortured prisoner and then from the perspective of a world class weightlifter.

The tortured guy views it negatively and screams and hollers and probably gets scarred for life.

The weightlifter on the other hand looks forward to the pain, feels the burn...literally seeks it out.

Same receptors, same chemicals, etc.  Different perspective.


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What's up everybody?!

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
    #14604192 - 06/13/11 01:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
No, we're not going to agree to disagree, we're going to argue about it.:tongue:

Hate is a particular form of fear. Hate is a sub-category of fear. If you disagree, provide an example. Let's examine.




Hate is what we fear about ourselves taken out on others.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14604310 - 06/13/11 02:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
:lol:

But you raise a good point.  Think of pain from the perspective of a tortured prisoner and then from the perspective of a world class weightlifter.

The tortured guy views it negatively and screams and hollers and probably gets scarred for life.

The weightlifter on the other hand looks forward to the pain, feels the burn...literally seeks it out.

Same receptors, same chemicals, etc.  Different perspective.




Given that mental experience seems inextricably correlated to brain activity I would think that a different perspective would entail different patterns of chemical reactions, no?  :tongue:

On the whole I agree that perspective can make bad situations livable, but I still see fear as useful insofaras it prevents me from experiencing certain types of suffering.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
    #14604360 - 06/13/11 02:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Because simply not liking something isn't enough to prevent one from doing that thing. Furthermore, if you wouldn't feel fear about something, I can only assume that doing it wouldn't be that bad for you either. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
    #14605037 - 06/13/11 08:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Given that mental experience seems inextricably correlated to brain activity I would think that a different perspective would entail different patterns of chemical reactions, no?  :tongue:




Yeah I thought you might say that. I don't know...not even sure neuro-scientists know how perspective works.  The always impressive "hard problem of consciousness".

I saw a brain study on LSD usage and they said the scans always looked the same even though each person was having a completely different trip.  A cool research thing would be to scan guys feeling the burn and pushing it til their muscles quit on them....and some guy feeling unwanted intense pain.

See if its the same image just interpreted different ways by the subject.


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What's up everybody?!

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
    #14606233 - 06/13/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Edit: In saying that, I will say that it's worth some more thought. I am undecided. I am having trouble comming up with a scenario in which the hate was in response to something other than fear. Can anyone help me out?


Hate is a response to not having our preferences met..one example of hate having nothing to do with fear is hating the smell of shit. :glittershitz:

Another example would be hating a particular TV show, or even hating TV altogether.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
    #14606479 - 06/13/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well I guess if hate means dislike then yes.

" I hate the rain."  Do I really, or is that an exaggerated expression?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Icelander]
    #14606546 - 06/13/11 02:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I guess if hate means dislike then yes.


Hate is extreme dislike.


Quote:

Icelander said:
" I hate the rain."  Do I really, or is that an exaggerated expression?


It depends on if you truly hate the rain, or if you're just exaggerating. :shrug:

It could be that you're exaggerating out of anger, and that, instead of actually hating the rain, you merely dislike the discomfort it's causing you at the moment. It could also be that you truly hate rain, in all its forms, whether it's causing you discomfort at the moment or not.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
    #14606857 - 06/13/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Actually I'm afraid of the rain.:sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
    #14607512 - 06/13/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

one example of hate having nothing to do with fear is hating the smell of shit.




Shit can carry pathogens, so hate is a possible reaction to the fear of crap. If crap was generally healthy, people would generally love the smell of crap.

Quote:

Another example would be hating a particular TV show, or even hating TV altogether.




If someone thinks a particular activity is a complete waste of time, or instills un-useful viewpoints, hate is a possible reaction to the fear of wasting ones time or culturing views that are wasteful or even detrimental.

Try again.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Offlinebobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
    #14611232 - 06/14/11 10:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bobchillaxed said:
In love one expands, in fear one shrinks. In Fear one becomes closed, in love one opens. In fear one doubts, in love one trusts. In fear one is left lonely, in love one disappears; hence there is no question of loneliness at all




hate is not the same as fear;
you can hate without shrinking.
you can hate without becoming closed.
you can hate without being lonely.

(just to add:)
science approves of this:grin:
your DNA "relaxes" more..expanding and loosening up when feeling a state of love, and your DNA does the opposite when in fear. studies were done on this.

there's an hour long video that is well worth a watch,
called "Gregg Braden - The Science of Miracles" that goes over this and many other things.

if you just want to read about the DNA experiment, here's the link about halfway down the page. (very interesting)


Quote:

Rahz said:

Shit can carry pathogens, so hate is a possible reaction to the fear of crap. If crap was generally healthy, people would generally love the smell of crap.

If someone thinks a particular activity is a complete waste of time, or instills un-useful viewpoints, hate is a possible reaction to the fear of wasting ones time or culturing views that are wasteful or even detrimental.

Try again.





i think  your perspective on hate is exaggerated..it's not the same as fear. the Donnie Darko love/fear lifeline scene i thought was interesting.. whereas "life is not that simple.. you cannot just lump everything in two categories" .. "Fear and love are the deepest of human emotions".. "Ok, but you're not listening to me. There are other things that need to be taken in to account here.. like the whole spectrum of human emotion. You can't just lump everything in to two categories and then just deny everything else!"

open for discussion,
but i had to remind you of the original post.

Edited by bobchillaxed (06/14/11 10:29 AM)

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
    #14614104 - 06/14/11 07:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not sure about "DNA", but I can point out that hate is fairly tense as well. If tension is the opposite of love, then hate and fear could be the same. To your credit, hate and fear can be seen as opposites in the same sense that fight/flight are opposites, but these opposites become the same when measured against love.

But wait, there's more to see through!

(hate = fear) = love. 

Smoke that and we can talk about the buzz.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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OfflineOddEye


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
    #14615341 - 06/15/11 12:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

in my opinion the opposite of love is hate, I'm not trying to play with word but wouldn't the opposite of fear be fearless?
I think love and hate can't really be true together for the same thing on the same point. If you hate and love something you do so for different reason.


--------------------
I'm at the highest peak, still glad the meak is understandin' me
Artillery, thoughts of killin' me is just a fantasy
The man in me is ready for war, like Holyfield-Tyson IV

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: OddEye]
    #14615490 - 06/15/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I always thought apathy was the opposite of every emotion.


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Offlinebobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14618699 - 06/15/11 05:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

a) fear
b) nothingness/emptiness

it's one of those; but i don't think it's hate as the opposite of love.

that's what i think.


--------------------
like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
    #14618979 - 06/15/11 06:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If I love something, I ascribe positive qualities to that thing and want to maintain its existence.  if I hate something, I ascribe negative qualities to that thing and want to destroy it.  Seems like opposites to me.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
    #14626709 - 06/17/11 05:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

one example of hate having nothing to do with fear is hating the smell of shit.




Shit can carry pathogens...


I don't think little children who react hatefully to the smell of shit think about pathogens.


Quote:

Rahz said:
...so hate is a possible reaction to the fear of crap.


I guess the key-word here is "possible"..you have not established that all humans hate the smell of crap due to the fear of the potential danger that it poses.


Quote:

Rahz said:
If crap was generally healthy, people would generally love the smell of crap.


What are you basing this on?


Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Another example would be hating a particular TV show, or even hating TV altogether.




If someone thinks a particular activity is a complete waste of time, or instills un-useful viewpoints...


Those are not the only possible reasons for why a human might hate TV.


Quote:

Rahz said:
...hate is a possible reaction to the fear of wasting ones time or culturing views that are wasteful or even detrimental.


Again, "possible" is the key-word..you've only explained why one human might hate TV due to fear, you have not at all established that all humans who hate TV do so due to fear.



Try again. :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/17/11 07:13 AM)

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
    #14626874 - 06/17/11 07:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
If I love something, I ascribe positive qualities to that thing and want to maintain its existence.  if I hate something, I ascribe negative qualities to that thing and want to destroy it.  Seems like opposites to me.




You obviously haven't met my last girlfriend.  Her frustration was not being able to destroy or change the things she hated in me so she could love me all the way. 

I'm still alive but not as good as before.  Well in some ways better actually.  Maybe a lot better.  The yoke of trying has been lifted!


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
    #14628200 - 06/17/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I guess the key-word here is "possible"..you have not established that all humans hate the smell of crap due to the fear of the potential danger that it poses.




Nor do I need to. You should not expect me to list all possible reasons for your example 'hatred of crap'. Maybe someones uncle used crap to try and suffocate them when they were a small child or something. You must show the alternative reason that contains no fear if that is your assertion. Pathogens seems to be the most logical reason for an aversion to crap, though there could be an unlimited number of reasons since we have minds that are capable of faulty correlations.

And that's what it comes down to, aversion and attraction. I will retract my statement that hate is a sub-category of fear. Hate and fear are both emotional aspects of aversion, and I cannot think of any circumstance in which I'm sure there is one without the other. When a person has a fear, there will naturally be a component of hate, even if it is dormant or repressed. When a person hates, there will naturally be a component of fear. The dominant expression is whatever seems to be the most effective strategy. There are an unlimited number of easy examples which prove this out. It's up to you to establish hate in the absence of fear or vice versa. You give me an example of 'hatred of crap' yet you do not provide a reason. Until you give a reason, we must assume the person in question hates crap just because it's 'displeasing'. However, there's nothing logical or reasonable about it if you do not provide any logic or reason.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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