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InvisiblePoid
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What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality?
    #14606825 - 06/13/11 03:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

'Tis a real beard-stroker. :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14607248 - 06/13/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Question doesn't make any sense.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14607256 - 06/13/11 04:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sleepwalker said:
Question doesn't make any sense.




Doesn't make sense?  It's a tautology.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14607377 - 06/13/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I like psychology for it's detail and I like spirituality for it's simplicity. Both have their junk. It's hard to say just what either spirituality or psychology are though, they both have different people saying different things so you're on your own ultimately.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisiblenglsnv
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Grapefruit] * 1
    #14607762 - 06/13/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
I like psychology for it's detail and I like spirituality for it's simplicity. Both have their junk. It's hard to say just what either spirituality or psychology are though, they both have different people saying different things so you're on your own ultimately.




right. i think it's more of a question of what makes more sense to the individual.

spirituality can be intimidating because it sometimes just sounds like mumbo-jumbo.

psychology can be intimidating because it makes humans seem like they are machines.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14608050 - 06/13/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Psychology comprises a lot of conflicting notions, so... what psychology?

Spirituality also comprises a lot of conflicting notions, so... what spirituality?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14608072 - 06/13/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Psychology comprises a lot of conflicting notions, so... what psychology?

Spirituality also comprises a lot of conflicting notions, so... what spirituality?




In lieu of this specification, just take the broad definition.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14608080 - 06/13/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

In response, I will smash my face on my keyboard for your enjoyment:



tyujy6t5r4ewsderfgbnv  cdert6uy9jokerw24536789imn bvdfger45tyhjdfswq


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Offlineviktor
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14608144 - 06/13/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


psychology can be intimidating because it makes humans seem like they are machines.




Do you mean to imply that we're not machines?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblenglsnv
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: viktor]
    #14608450 - 06/13/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:


psychology can be intimidating because it makes humans seem like they are machines.




Do you mean to imply that we're not machines?




didn't mean to, really. i meant machine as in robotic, with no meaning to our actions/emotions/thoughts other than the processes that facilitate them.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14609906 - 06/14/11 12:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
In response, I will smash my face on my keyboard for your enjoyment:



tyujy6t5r4ewsderfgbnv  cdert6uy9jokerw24536789imn bvdfger45tyhjdfswq





Now THIS deserves a :strokebeard:
You're a deep guy, frock.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14610042 - 06/14/11 01:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14610700 - 06/14/11 07:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You notice the word "joker" ended up being in there? Lol.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14626694 - 06/17/11 05:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sleepwalker said:
Question doesn't make any sense.


It reads as a pretty simple, easy, straight-forward question to me..what about it doesn't make sense to you? :confused:



Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Sleepwalker said:
Question doesn't make any sense.




Doesn't make sense?  It's a tautology.


I don't really understand..are you saying that the statement is a rhetorical tautology, or a logical tautology? The inherent meanings and subsequent conclusions in rhetorical and logical tautologies are very different..I don't see how it's either. :undecided:


A rhetorical tautology conveys no useful information regardless of its length or complexity making it unfalsifiable..the question in the OP is neither long, complex, or unfalsifiable. It is also not meant to convey useful information as much as it is meant to ask a question.

Examples of logical tautologies would be the law of the excluded middle, and the principle known as reducto ad absurdum..I don't see how the question in the OP relates to either of those.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14626696 - 06/17/11 05:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:


psychology can be intimidating because it makes humans seem like they are machines.




Do you mean to imply that we're not machines?




didn't mean to, really. i meant machine as in robotic, with no meaning to our actions/emotions/thoughts other than the processes that facilitate them.


Why do you think there is any meaning our actions/emotions/thoughts?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (06/17/11 07:52 AM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14627660 - 06/17/11 11:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

well, psychological analysis is much less subjective and more reliable for the most part. I'd advise a psychologist over a psychic for most people.  But to neglect the spiritual transpersonal aspect of things is a mistake. How many people go to a psychologist and end up using what they learn to reinforce their own bullshit? When really what they need to hear is: wake the fuck up, your soul is dead, stop watching so much T.V. and eat some goddam mushrooms or do yoga or something.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: g00ru]
    #14627686 - 06/17/11 11:30 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Has anybody ever called you a stereotype?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Invisiblenglsnv
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14628066 - 06/17/11 01:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:


psychology can be intimidating because it makes humans seem like they are machines.




Do you mean to imply that we're not machines?




didn't mean to, really. i meant machine as in robotic, with no meaning to our actions/emotions/thoughts other than the processes that facilitate them.


Why do you think there is any meaning our actions/emotions/thoughts?




i'm not arrogant enough to assert that there is some sort of objective truth to our existence but i'm also not naive enough to think that people don't assign meaning to the various aspects of their lives. it's easy to say nothing is real and there is no meaning but i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14628081 - 06/17/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
...i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.


So what if it's not productive? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14628121 - 06/17/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


i'm not arrogant enough to assert that there is some sort of objective truth to our existence but i'm also not naive enough to think that people don't assign meaning to the various aspects of their lives. it's easy to say nothing is real and there is no meaning but i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.




Productive by whose standards, yours?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14628164 - 06/17/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

it's easy to say nothing is real and there is no meaning but i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.

Very much agree. When I see people acting like nothing is real then maybe I'll take that mindset seriously. Otherwise I think we can call bs.  Even if it turns out nothing is actually real.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblenglsnv
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: 4896744]
    #14628456 - 06/17/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
...i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.


So what if it's not productive? :undecided:




then someone is wasting their time :shrug:

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:


i'm not arrogant enough to assert that there is some sort of objective truth to our existence but i'm also not naive enough to think that people don't assign meaning to the various aspects of their lives. it's easy to say nothing is real and there is no meaning but i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.




Productive by whose standards, yours?




yes.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14628479 - 06/17/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Then why would your subjective definition of "productive" matter? Other people may have a different subjective definition of what being "productive" is that a nihilistic attitude is compatible with.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14628494 - 06/17/11 02:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
...i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.


So what if it's not productive? :undecided:




then someone is wasting their time :shrug:


So being unproductive is necessarily a waste of time?

I like masturbating, and it produces nothing but semen, yet I don't consider it to be a waste of time..I'm pretty sure you like masturbating as well, and also don't consider it to be a waste of time.


I could mention a whole shitload of other unproductive fun stuff, but hopefully you get the point. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Invisiblenglsnv
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: 4896744]
    #14630230 - 06/17/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Other people may have a different subjective definition of what being "productive" is that a nihilistic attitude is compatible with.




this is true, but i'm not arguing that my standard of productivity should matter to anyone, this is just how i feel. i'll pretend you asked me: why be productive?

why be productive? like you pointed out, i can only know my reasonings fully. as for other people, i can only assume that they are doing the things they do because it is in their best interest, that they are working towards a goal. productive actions would be actions that work in some way towards a desired goal.

poid mentioned masturbation as an example. if this is a step towards emotional/sexual/spiritual/etc. release or practice, then this would be productive for the individual.


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Offline4896744
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14630242 - 06/17/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Other people may have a different subjective definition of what being "productive" is that a nihilistic attitude is compatible with.




this is true, but i'm not arguing that my standard of productivity should matter to anyone, this is just how i feel. i'll pretend you asked me: why be productive?

why be productive? like you pointed out, i can only know my reasonings fully. as for other people, i can only assume that they are doing the things they do because it is in their best interest, that they are working towards a goal. productive actions would be actions that work in some way towards a desired goal.

poid mentioned masturbation as an example. if this is a step towards emotional/sexual/spiritual/etc. release or practice, then this would be productive for the individual.




If you want to talk about how you "feel" on issues, go to S&M.


--------------------
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: 4896744]
    #14630275 - 06/17/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:bondage:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Invisiblenglsnv
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: 4896744]
    #14630526 - 06/17/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

hmm, no.

i can feel philosophically.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14630659 - 06/17/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Please read the forum rules:

This debate-oriented forum is for the discussion of philosophical ideas that can be backed up with some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning.  Topics may include epistemology, ethics, metaphysics/ontology, the psychology of mind and the sociological study of cultural and individual behavior. 

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.



This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate..personal feelings have no room in a debate, as they are subjective opinions and so are therefore neither "right", "wrong", "true", or "false". The purpose of debate is to discover what is right, wrong, true, and false.

As iThink suggested, if you do not wish to debate, then consider posting in the Spirituality & Mysticism forum where tough debate is not encouraged, and where discussion of non-debatable topics like your subjective feelings is.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14630800 - 06/17/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate..personal feelings have no room in a debate, as they are subjective opinions and so are therefore neither "right", "wrong", "true", or "false". The purpose of debate is to discover what is right, wrong, true, and false.




Nobody has an objective viewpoint.  I feel that feelings are extremely relevant.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14630817 - 06/17/11 10:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate




this is false.

the forum, which happens to be debate oriented, is designed specifically for the discussion of philosophical ideas. naturally, these ideas need to be backed up with some logic and reasoning.

i stated my ideas, and you tell me i'm doing it wrong and to get out? how about challenge my ideas  :yawn:

just because i use the word feel to describe my ideas doesn't mean you can dismiss them.


Edited by nglsnv (06/18/11 06:53 AM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14630860 - 06/17/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How does one "feel philosophically"?


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14630902 - 06/17/11 10:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sleepwalker said:
Quote:

Poid said:
This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate..personal feelings have no room in a debate, as they are subjective opinions and so are therefore neither "right", "wrong", "true", or "false". The purpose of debate is to discover what is right, wrong, true, and false.




Nobody has an objective viewpoint.  I feel that feelings are extremely relevant.


...if backed up by some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning.

I'd appreciate it if you responded to my response to your first post in this thread..it's had me thinking a bit. :sun:



Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
Quote:

Poid said:
This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate




this is false.

the forum, which happens to be debate oriented, is designed specifically for the discussion of philosophical ideas.


No, that's not what the rules state..read them again.


Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
i stated my ideas, and you tell me i'm doing it wrong and to get out? how about challenge my ideas  :yawn:


You're basically speaking about your personal morals..really, that has no place in a debate forum, because, again, morals are neither "true" or "false", and the purpose of debate is to discover what is true and what is false.


Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
just because i use the world feel to describe my ideas doesn't mean you can dismiss them.


Well, actually, I can dismiss whatever the hell I want for whatever reason I want to, and you can do the same. :usa::grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14630960 - 06/17/11 10:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

to feel philosophically would be to use one's feelings in order to gain philosophical insight. a feeling about an issue would lead to a decision about that issue, and one would come to a conclusion about whether it is right or wrong.

are one's feelings not based on one's philosophical perspective?

i can't say whether i feel good or bad about people stealing, for example. i would judge based on the context. if a starving peasant steals some bread from the market i would be less inclined to feel bad about stealing than if a company's ceo is stealing money from his coworkers.

if i would have stated my beliefs in a different way, without having mentioned my feelings would we really be talking about this? or could we have moved on to discuss the ideas further?


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14631018 - 06/17/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
Quote:

Poid said:
This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate




this is false.

the forum, which happens to be debate oriented, is designed specifically for the discussion of philosophical ideas.



No, that's not what the rules state..read them again.





i get the impression you are just here to debate, no matter whether it's over the forum rules, philosophy, or whatever. you don't have to argue to discuss ideas. try to look past the way i express my ideas and see the ideas that i'm expressing.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
i stated my ideas, and you tell me i'm doing it wrong and to get out? how about challenge my ideas  :yawn:



You're basically speaking about your personal morals..





i never said anything about morals, because i don't buy into the idea. morals are too restricting. read my response to frock about stealing. this is why i don't talk about 'stealing is bad' morals.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
just because i use the world feel to describe my ideas doesn't mean you can dismiss them.



Well, actually, I can dismiss whatever the hell I want for whatever reason I want to, and you can do the same. :usa::grin:




i can. i can also choose to address your ideas and counter/support them with my ideas. and just a heads up, when i post, it's to address ideas :cool:


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14631188 - 06/17/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"to feel philosophically would be to use one's feelings in order to gain philosophical insight."

Can you give one example of one such insight that you know?

"are one's feelings not based on one's philosophical perspective?"

I don't know.

"if i would have stated my beliefs in a different way, without having mentioned my feelings would we really be talking about this? or could we have moved on to discuss the ideas further?"

Its one thing to say you feel a certain way about things, its another to tell other people that and expect anything more than, "So what?" You can have feelings, they just don't form a basis for knowledge anymore than feeling Santa's presence proves Santa's existence.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14631207 - 06/17/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

By definition, the science of psychology is better suited to study psychology than is anything other than psychology.

The more interesting question is, between psychology and spirituality, which system of understanding is to be preferred?

That depends entirely on, wait for it ... your preferences. If you're looking for research data, psychology is to be preferred. If you're looking for a narrative in which to contextualize your life, spirituality.

I do not feel that either of these preferences is "more good" than the other, nor do I think they can be meaningfully compared, as their intended goals differ so significantly.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: laserpig]
    #14631222 - 06/17/11 11:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"By definition, the science of psychology is better suited to study psychology than is anything other than psychology. "

Isn't psychology the study of the human brain/mind, NOT the study of psychology (which would just be circular, I think you might be equivocating)? Psychology does not study itself, does it? Isn't that's more of the role of philosophy?


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14631303 - 06/18/11 12:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thread title: 

Quote:

What describes human psychology more accurately ... psychology or spirituality?




If it were instead "what describes the human psyche more accurately, psychology or spirituality," it would still be begging the question. Psychology is the study of the psyche. It is by definition the answer to the question. Spirituality discusses the spirit/soul, not the psyche. They not the same concept, even if there is some overlap in the minds of certain new-age authors.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: laserpig]
    #14631330 - 06/18/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"They not the same concept, even if there is some overlap in the minds of certain new-age authors."

I'm not sure they are different. What makes the idea that there really is a soul or spirit any different than the idea that there is a psyche or self?


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14631374 - 06/18/11 12:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

In every psychology text I've encountered, psyche refers to a person's thoughts, memories, emotional complexes, etcetera. In spiritual terms, none of that is considered to be the true self. Thoughts etc are said to be "conditioned mind," or maya, illusion.

Spirituality addresses the eternal soul which is independent of mental content. Psychology studies mental content, nothing else. I have no comment on the existence or nonexistence of the soul, but this distinction is nonetheless what makes the difference between psychology and spirituality.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: laserpig]
    #14631406 - 06/18/11 12:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"In spiritual terms, none of that is considered to be the true self. "

Which spiritual terms? When you look at how the Christian concept of soul is used in practice, especially before it fell out of favor in recent years, I think you'll find it no different than any other word we use for personal identity, save for the explanation they give of its origin.

"Spirituality addresses the eternal soul which is independent of mental content. "

Spirituality in general? That's not the only issue though, I've heard soul and mind used interchangably by plenty of "spiritual" people in "spiritual" uses, like Descartes. The soul is not anything if not consciousness to many of these people, including Descartes. Just look at Descartes proof of the existence of his soul. It is based directly from his Cogito argument, is it not? He even went as far as to describe the soul as the "pilot" of the body, giving it directions via thoughts, etc. Is that not spiritual enough for you? I think you might be talking out of your ass here. Am I wrong?


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14631472 - 06/18/11 12:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I admit that 16th century Christianity is not what I had in mind when defining spirituality. The spiritual traditions I am most familiar with are those of Asia. Hinduism and Buddhism are quite clear about the distinction between mental content and soul, but I see your point that Descartes thought differently. Perhaps spirituality is simply too broad a label to be meaningfully contrasted against modern psychology.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: laserpig]
    #14631480 - 06/18/11 12:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Perhaps spirituality is simply too broad a label to be meaningfully contrasted against modern psychology."

:thumbup:

And let's not forget vice-versa. Psychology is also extremely broad and with many differing notions of mind/the lack thereof.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14631683 - 06/18/11 01:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Psychology comprises a lot of conflicting notions, so... what psychology?

Spirituality also comprises a lot of conflicting notions, so... what spirituality?




In lieu of this specification, just take the broad definition.




--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
    #14632110 - 06/18/11 04:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Clearly, there is no broad definition of spirituality. Eastern and Western definitions contradict each other, as xFrockx just pointed out. IMO this renders a meaningful general comparison between spirituality and psychology impossible (or between spirituality and anything else, for that matter).


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14632493 - 06/18/11 06:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"to feel philosophically would be to use one's feelings in order to gain philosophical insight."

Can you give one example of one such insight that you know?




use the search function, i've posted here before.

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"if i would have stated my beliefs in a different way, without having mentioned my feelings would we really be talking about this? or could we have moved on to discuss the ideas further?"

Its one thing to say you feel a certain way about things, its another to tell other people that and expect anything more than, "So what?" You can have feelings, they just don't form a basis for knowledge anymore than feeling Santa's presence proves Santa's existence.




i don't expect anything more than 'so what'. if that's all you have to contribute then fine, you might as well not reply to my posts.

what forms your basis of knowledge?


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14632664 - 06/18/11 08:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Gestalt psychology address both figure and ground:
The theoretical principles are the following:

Principle of Totality - The conscious experience must be considered globally (by taking into account all the physical and mental aspects of the individual simultaneously) because the nature of the mind demands that each component be considered as part of a system of dynamic relationships.

Principle of psychophysical isomorphism - A correlation exists between conscious experience and cerebral activity.

Based on the principles above the following methodological principles are defined:

Phenomenon Experimental Analysis - In relation to the Totality Principle any psychological research should take as a starting point phenomena and not be solely focused on sensory qualities.

Biotic Experiment - The School of Gestalt established a need to conduct real experiments which sharply contrasted with and opposed classic laboratory experiments. This signified experimenting in natural situations, developed in real conditions, in which it would be possible to reproduce, with higher fidelity, what would be habitual for a subject.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: g00ru]
    #14633256 - 06/18/11 11:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
How many people go to a psychologist and end up using what they learn to reinforce their own bullshit? When really what they need to hear is: wake the fuck up, your soul is dead, stop watching so much T.V. and eat some goddam mushrooms or do yoga or something.




so fucking true man. i'm new here (well i made an account to ask a question awhile back), and now that i actually partake in tripping a lot, i've decided to make my GLORIOUS return :dancer:

expect to see more of me veterans of this site. i've found my home  :inlove3:


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: TheOceanInside]
    #14633357 - 06/18/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I belive that they shouldn`t be broken apart,but taken and used together. Through psychological studies we can understand the nature of our psyche,and the relationships between our psyhical body and mind,we can study emotions,feelings,states of conciousness that are limited to our third-dimensional perception.We learn that our mind affects our psyhical body.

Spirituality comes here to fill some gaps,and add some more relationships. The mind affects not only our psyhical body,but our energy too.It offers us the chance to not only descend the ladder from our mind to our body,being limited in third dimension,but to extend the ladder to the singular and universal nature of the matter,and also to make our own ladders,going in any directions we want.

For that reason,many occultists had advanced knowledge in not only psychology,but biology physics and chemestry.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: laserpig]
    #14634544 - 06/18/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Clearly, there is no broad definition of spirituality. Eastern and Western definitions contradict each other, as xFrockx just pointed out.


They don't completely contradict each other, there are many similarities..here is a definition which is broad enough IMO to encompass both:

Spirituality
Quote:

Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality; an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.” Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual's inner life; spiritual experience includes that of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm. Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life. It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
    #14634931 - 06/18/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"what forms your basis of knowledge? "

I'm not sure if I have any knowledge. What is knowledge?


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