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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
#14628164 - 06/17/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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it's easy to say nothing is real and there is no meaning but i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.
Very much agree. When I see people acting like nothing is real then maybe I'll take that mindset seriously. Otherwise I think we can call bs. Even if it turns out nothing is actually real.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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nglsnv
Becoming



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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: 4896744]
#14628456 - 06/17/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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Professor Tibbs said: ...i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.
So what if it's not productive? 
then someone is wasting their time 
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iThink said:
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i'm not arrogant enough to assert that there is some sort of objective truth to our existence but i'm also not naive enough to think that people don't assign meaning to the various aspects of their lives. it's easy to say nothing is real and there is no meaning but i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.
Productive by whose standards, yours?
yes.
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4896744
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
#14628479 - 06/17/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then why would your subjective definition of "productive" matter? Other people may have a different subjective definition of what being "productive" is that a nihilistic attitude is compatible with.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
#14628494 - 06/17/11 02:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Professor Tibbs said:
Quote:
Poid said:
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Professor Tibbs said: ...i don't think this is a very productive mindset to have.
So what if it's not productive? 
then someone is wasting their time 
So being unproductive is necessarily a waste of time?
I like masturbating, and it produces nothing but semen, yet I don't consider it to be a waste of time..I'm pretty sure you like masturbating as well, and also don't consider it to be a waste of time.
I could mention a whole shitload of other unproductive fun stuff, but hopefully you get the point.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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nglsnv
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: 4896744]
#14630230 - 06/17/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said: Other people may have a different subjective definition of what being "productive" is that a nihilistic attitude is compatible with.
this is true, but i'm not arguing that my standard of productivity should matter to anyone, this is just how i feel. i'll pretend you asked me: why be productive?
why be productive? like you pointed out, i can only know my reasonings fully. as for other people, i can only assume that they are doing the things they do because it is in their best interest, that they are working towards a goal. productive actions would be actions that work in some way towards a desired goal.
poid mentioned masturbation as an example. if this is a step towards emotional/sexual/spiritual/etc. release or practice, then this would be productive for the individual.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
#14630242 - 06/17/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Professor Tibbs said:
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iThink said: Other people may have a different subjective definition of what being "productive" is that a nihilistic attitude is compatible with.
this is true, but i'm not arguing that my standard of productivity should matter to anyone, this is just how i feel. i'll pretend you asked me: why be productive?
why be productive? like you pointed out, i can only know my reasonings fully. as for other people, i can only assume that they are doing the things they do because it is in their best interest, that they are working towards a goal. productive actions would be actions that work in some way towards a desired goal.
poid mentioned masturbation as an example. if this is a step towards emotional/sexual/spiritual/etc. release or practice, then this would be productive for the individual.
If you want to talk about how you "feel" on issues, go to S&M.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: 4896744]
#14630275 - 06/17/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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nglsnv
Becoming



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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: 4896744]
#14630526 - 06/17/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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hmm, no.
i can feel philosophically.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
#14630659 - 06/17/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Please read the forum rules:
This debate-oriented forum is for the discussion of philosophical ideas that can be backed up with some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning. Topics may include epistemology, ethics, metaphysics/ontology, the psychology of mind and the sociological study of cultural and individual behavior.
If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.
This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate..personal feelings have no room in a debate, as they are subjective opinions and so are therefore neither "right", "wrong", "true", or "false". The purpose of debate is to discover what is right, wrong, true, and false.
As iThink suggested, if you do not wish to debate, then consider posting in the Spirituality & Mysticism forum where tough debate is not encouraged, and where discussion of non-debatable topics like your subjective feelings is.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#14630800 - 06/17/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate..personal feelings have no room in a debate, as they are subjective opinions and so are therefore neither "right", "wrong", "true", or "false". The purpose of debate is to discover what is right, wrong, true, and false.
Nobody has an objective viewpoint. I feel that feelings are extremely relevant.
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nglsnv
Becoming



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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#14630817 - 06/17/11 10:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate
this is false.
the forum, which happens to be debate oriented, is designed specifically for the discussion of philosophical ideas. naturally, these ideas need to be backed up with some logic and reasoning.
i stated my ideas, and you tell me i'm doing it wrong and to get out? how about challenge my ideas
just because i use the word feel to describe my ideas doesn't mean you can dismiss them.
Edited by nglsnv (06/18/11 06:53 AM)
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xFrockx


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
#14630860 - 06/17/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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How does one "feel philosophically"?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
#14630902 - 06/17/11 10:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
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Poid said: This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate..personal feelings have no room in a debate, as they are subjective opinions and so are therefore neither "right", "wrong", "true", or "false". The purpose of debate is to discover what is right, wrong, true, and false.
Nobody has an objective viewpoint. I feel that feelings are extremely relevant.
...if backed up by some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning.
I'd appreciate it if you responded to my response to your first post in this thread..it's had me thinking a bit. 
Quote:
Professor Tibbs said:
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Poid said: This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate
this is false.
the forum, which happens to be debate oriented, is designed specifically for the discussion of philosophical ideas.
No, that's not what the rules state..read them again.
Quote:
Professor Tibbs said: i stated my ideas, and you tell me i'm doing it wrong and to get out? how about challenge my ideas 
You're basically speaking about your personal morals..really, that has no place in a debate forum, because, again, morals are neither "true" or "false", and the purpose of debate is to discover what is true and what is false.
Quote:
Professor Tibbs said: just because i use the world feel to describe my ideas doesn't mean you can dismiss them.
Well, actually, I can dismiss whatever the hell I want for whatever reason I want to, and you can do the same. 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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nglsnv
Becoming



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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
#14630960 - 06/17/11 10:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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to feel philosophically would be to use one's feelings in order to gain philosophical insight. a feeling about an issue would lead to a decision about that issue, and one would come to a conclusion about whether it is right or wrong.
are one's feelings not based on one's philosophical perspective?
i can't say whether i feel good or bad about people stealing, for example. i would judge based on the context. if a starving peasant steals some bread from the market i would be less inclined to feel bad about stealing than if a company's ceo is stealing money from his coworkers.
if i would have stated my beliefs in a different way, without having mentioned my feelings would we really be talking about this? or could we have moved on to discuss the ideas further?
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nglsnv
Becoming



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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#14631018 - 06/17/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Professor Tibbs said:
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Poid said: This isn't a philosophical brainstorm forum, it is designed specifically for debate
this is false.
the forum, which happens to be debate oriented, is designed specifically for the discussion of philosophical ideas.
No, that's not what the rules state..read them again.
i get the impression you are just here to debate, no matter whether it's over the forum rules, philosophy, or whatever. you don't have to argue to discuss ideas. try to look past the way i express my ideas and see the ideas that i'm expressing.
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Professor Tibbs said: i stated my ideas, and you tell me i'm doing it wrong and to get out? how about challenge my ideas 
You're basically speaking about your personal morals..
i never said anything about morals, because i don't buy into the idea. morals are too restricting. read my response to frock about stealing. this is why i don't talk about 'stealing is bad' morals.
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Poid said:
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Professor Tibbs said: just because i use the world feel to describe my ideas doesn't mean you can dismiss them.
Well, actually, I can dismiss whatever the hell I want for whatever reason I want to, and you can do the same.  
i can. i can also choose to address your ideas and counter/support them with my ideas. and just a heads up, when i post, it's to address ideas
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xFrockx


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: nglsnv]
#14631188 - 06/17/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"to feel philosophically would be to use one's feelings in order to gain philosophical insight."
Can you give one example of one such insight that you know?
"are one's feelings not based on one's philosophical perspective?"
I don't know.
"if i would have stated my beliefs in a different way, without having mentioned my feelings would we really be talking about this? or could we have moved on to discuss the ideas further?"
Its one thing to say you feel a certain way about things, its another to tell other people that and expect anything more than, "So what?" You can have feelings, they just don't form a basis for knowledge anymore than feeling Santa's presence proves Santa's existence.
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laserpig
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#14631207 - 06/17/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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By definition, the science of psychology is better suited to study psychology than is anything other than psychology.
The more interesting question is, between psychology and spirituality, which system of understanding is to be preferred?
That depends entirely on, wait for it ... your preferences. If you're looking for research data, psychology is to be preferred. If you're looking for a narrative in which to contextualize your life, spirituality.
I do not feel that either of these preferences is "more good" than the other, nor do I think they can be meaningfully compared, as their intended goals differ so significantly.
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xFrockx


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: laserpig]
#14631222 - 06/17/11 11:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"By definition, the science of psychology is better suited to study psychology than is anything other than psychology. "
Isn't psychology the study of the human brain/mind, NOT the study of psychology (which would just be circular, I think you might be equivocating)? Psychology does not study itself, does it? Isn't that's more of the role of philosophy?
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laserpig
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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: xFrockx]
#14631303 - 06/18/11 12:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thread title:
Quote:
What describes human psychology more accurately ... psychology or spirituality?
If it were instead "what describes the human psyche more accurately, psychology or spirituality," it would still be begging the question. Psychology is the study of the psyche. It is by definition the answer to the question. Spirituality discusses the spirit/soul, not the psyche. They not the same concept, even if there is some overlap in the minds of certain new-age authors.
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xFrockx


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Re: What describes human psychology more accurately/solidly: psychology or spirituality? [Re: laserpig]
#14631330 - 06/18/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"They not the same concept, even if there is some overlap in the minds of certain new-age authors."
I'm not sure they are different. What makes the idea that there really is a soul or spirit any different than the idea that there is a psyche or self?
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