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ManicMongrel
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Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate
#14605459 - 06/13/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm no expert at microbiology, and I'm still quite fresh at mushroom farming. I've had good results with growing Panaeolus on straw and dung based substrates, this time around the goal is to better understand contamination and how the fungi I'm growing defend itself against invading microorganisms. Some of this theory might seem a little sketchy to some of you, but this is a experimental technique not a TEK, so feel free to add some constructive input especially on the theory part.
The idea with this experiment was to make a substrate with a high resistance to trichodermia types of mold and loaded with nutrition. I figured one of the easiest way to make a substrate resistant to mold is to have a high content of beneficial bacterias, low amounts of the molds favorite nutrition (carbohydrates). This procedure should create a clean bacterial culture that produce compounds which doesn't affect dung fungi but keep annoying contaminants down.
Here is the procedure I used:
Substrate and equipment:
-Fresh(!) cow manure (I know... Yuck!) -wheat bran -coffee grinds -straw -Owen bags
The point here is that the fresh manure probably has much more bacterias than the matured sort and turned out to be better than the aged horse manure I used last time. The bran has lots of nutrition though it has starch and sugar as well, the idea is that the bacterias will eat up the carbohydrates fairly quick and take away the molds prime advantage for rapid growth.
Straw makes the substrate less dense, give better gas exchange and has lots of surface area for the mycelia to grow on, I really dont see a point of using vermiculite for straw substrates. Coffee adds even more nitrogen, phosphate and minerals, maybe a little overkill to use it, though pasteurized coffee adds plenty of nutrition without increasing contamination risk.
First step is to sterilize the straw and wheat bran, pressure cooker is to prefer though boiling it twice with 12h interval does the trick as well. The bran is pretty much saturated with endospores, so it has to be sterilized. It might not be necessary with the straw but, the boiling makes it crack up a little which is makes it easier for the mycelia to grow on.
The cow manure was then mixed with boiling water and the coffee grinds, next step is to mix in the bran to this thick smelly soup and stir until you have an nice even consistency. Then last add the straw and make sure everything is soaked in the poop juice.
Now for the pasteurization:
Fill up that oven bags and try to have as little air as possible in them to allow them to expand without farting, make them as flat as you can to have even temperature distribution, then last give them a very thorough pasteurization in the oven.

After the pasteurization is done, they need to ferment for at least a week at room temperature. This is the anaerobic part, the substrate will be full of lactic acid and smells sour and pretty bad. The substrate then needs fresh air for at least another week before its finally done. When its finished you should have a substrate that is only attractive to dung fungi and very little else.
What I did was to put some of the substrate on jars after the anaerobic fermentation, inoculated with Panaeolus spores and kept them at germination temperature. Not surprisingly it took almost 2 weeks before anything happened. I don't understand the exact details about whats happens during the aerobic fermentation period, though I believe the bacterias use the available oxygen to catabolize lactic acid and nasty nitrogen compounds left in the mix and slowly make it appealing for the fungi.
After about 2 weeks with fresh air fermentation a small mycelial rose appeared, it now grows at full speed for pans and new ones pops up every 10 hours.
This is day 2 after the pan mycelia appeared:

I have exposed some of the jars to green mold spores a few times, and no mold has appeared after 2 weeks. Its still a little early to tell, but everything is looking good so far.
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14605497 - 06/13/11 10:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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This does not really sound like it's going to work, but, hell, give it a shot if you really feel like experimenting. Anyway, I think what you actually aim for is a composted substrate. There is an entire chapter on this in the mushroom cultivator, maybe you should check it out.
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: Lord_McLovin]
#14605527 - 06/13/11 10:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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im not really sure what is going on in fresh manure
but are you sure its not actually harmful to dung loving mycelium.
things like ammonia, raw material, etc
im really curious
and what is the consistency of your substrate? doesnt look like what is considered field capacity. looks very wet. does it dry in fermintation?
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  -------------------------------------------------- -pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs- "The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
Edited by just me (06/13/11 11:02 AM)
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Smeesh
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14605567 - 06/13/11 11:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Interesting experiment but im sure there is a good reason people here dry and leech manure before using it as a sub.
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14605596 - 06/13/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yep, the consistency is about field capacity. Its growing very fast, so it doesn't exactly seem to be harmful. Besides, it has been brewing for a few weeks so I think a lot of the harmful stuff should be gone by now.
And yeah, this is definitely compost.
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14605626 - 06/13/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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stinky 
maybe perfect for outdoor patches
the whole thing with indoor is keeping it tidy at least for me and not smelling like a stable...although
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  -------------------------------------------------- -pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs- "The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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higgledy-piggledy
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: Smeesh]
#14605633 - 06/13/11 11:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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hmm, theres a lot of water at the bottom of the jars;
might not be good at all, but obviously the mycelium doesnt care.
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14605662 - 06/13/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have seen Pans grow on reasonably fresh manure in rice fields. I have read that fresh manure has ammonia and other nitrogen compounds that retard the growth of some dung fungi, at least cubes. There is not all that much specific info on pans so I also wanted to see if pans need aged manure.
You need water at the bottom if your growing in jars in open air, the jars are placed in a tub with water kept warm and stable by an aquarium heater. This has always worked really well for growing and fruiting from jars, at least when dealing with pans.
Whats really weird is that it doesn't smell anymore... I'm serious about the smell when preparing it though, the whole place smell like ass
Edited by ManicMongrel (06/13/11 11:31 AM)
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14606027 - 06/13/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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can i see your set up?
possibly setup and fruiting jars?
--------------------
  -------------------------------------------------- -pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs- "The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14606036 - 06/13/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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that mycelium looks happy
but why would you keep THAT much water in the fruiting container.
you could guarantee that any substrate @ waterlevel or under, is completely useless(right?), and most likely a good portion up from water level is too wet also.
why not use hydrated perlite, or verm, etc in the bottoms of your jars?
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  -------------------------------------------------- -pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs- "The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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SKrink
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14606114 - 06/13/11 12:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interesting. I have been experimenting (non-myco-related) with anaerobic fermentation for my kitchen waste compost, and those microbes continue to amaze me.
Anyway you might have stumbled upon this already, but if not: check out Carsten/Mycello's awesome thread: Grain spawn without pressure cooking (Fermented grain/substrate techniques) Lots of good info and ideas there, might take awhile to sift through though.
Keep the updates and info coming!
--------------------
SWEET POTATO HOME FRIES
HOW TO USE A PENIS ENVY SPORE SWAB
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14606124 - 06/13/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The water level is too high in that one for sure, it will evaporate down to decent level pretty quick at 28C though. Its a good idea to use perlite at the bottom but I have to go far to buy it, so its more out of lazyness. The mycelia actually grow all the way down to the water line, believe it or not.
The setup is just a tub with water, salt and a heater. The jars are placed in the water and kept heated until fully colonized. When they are done I wrap them in aluminum foil take off the lid and place them in the standard monotub plastic container. The container is heated in the tub in the same way. The flushes would perform a lot better in trays, with a few inches dept, but I want to see what the mycelia looks like during the fruiting cycle with this substrate and all.
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14606142 - 06/13/11 01:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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on the outside of the substrate the mycelium reaches water line, but id be surprised if you can actually get full colonization/consolidation like that
but then again maybe the pans like fruiting from an undercolonized sub, again, idk. very curious
--------------------
  -------------------------------------------------- -pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs- "The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14606161 - 06/13/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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they would perform better if you dried them up a little i think (i wouldnt let them colonize in standing water at all)(although you say you like it for fruiting) and fruiting in something with maybe a little more environmental fluctuation, than a monotub with jars in it.
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  -------------------------------------------------- -pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs- "The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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anonjon
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14606174 - 06/13/11 01:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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So the point is to observe a substrate that is infected w/ anaerobic bacteria?
You can come over to my house. Some of my spawn was at 95 degrees for a couple days and went bacterial when spawned.
Not much to observe tho, apart from a big stinky mess. Some of the tubs survived, but aren't any the better for having been infected.
And I can tell you what happens if you leave pasteurized horse manure sit for a week without using it. It smells like horse farts and breaks out in small patches of trich after the first flush.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14606254 - 06/13/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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If they dont dry up soon enough I'll adjust the water line with a syringe. The monotub might not be perfect but it has worked nicely before, these pans like stable temperature for some reason, I'm not arguing they all do though, there is a lot more strain difference than people give them credit for. This strain fruit ridiculously easy by the way, fruiting happens so quick it can almost be annoying.
I was told by a local in Thailand that these pans typically pop up on dung patties during the wet season, and usually grow in very humid places the rest of the year. It could be why they like it so wet.
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14606291 - 06/13/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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are you taking prints? have you "heard" anything on the potency of these?
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  -------------------------------------------------- -pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs- "The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: anonjon]
#14606346 - 06/13/11 01:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm making compost by attempting to use a controlled bacterial culture. I'm guessing you used rye berries and if thats the case then I'm not very surprised your infected shitpile didn't perform all that well.
As for trich growing on pasteurized manure? Sound like you went a little hard on the pasteurization man.
You are welcome to disagree with me mate, I'm not hell bent on proving anything. I'm experimenting and the results looked good enough so far, so I decided to share the results. The pictures talk for them selves, and if I get trich I will post that too, I wont care much for your little victory dance either.
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
Edited by ManicMongrel (06/13/11 02:25 PM)
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14606377 - 06/13/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Potency were good last time I tried them, OK to be pans, not as spectacular as Lao-strain pan cyans (watch out for those!). I'm mainly using them because they are the simplest to grow out of the strains I have.
I will definitely take prints if this goes well, I'm running short of spores for this strain. I'll gladly share prints, but judging from the substrate it can be a royal pain to inoculate these on agar
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
Edited by ManicMongrel (06/13/11 02:04 PM)
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14606581 - 06/13/11 02:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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an easy fruiting pan sounds nice
--------------------
  -------------------------------------------------- -pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs- "The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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anonjon
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14606891 - 06/13/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ManicMongrel said: I'm making compost by attempting to use a controlled bacterial culture. I'm guessing you used rye berries and if thats the case then I'm not very surprised your infected shitpile didn't perform all that well.
As for trich growing on pasteurized manure? Sound like you went a little hard on the pasteurization man.
You are welcome to disagree with me mate, I'm not hell bent on proving anything. I'm experimenting and the results looked good enough so far, so I decided to share the results. The pictures talk for them selves, and if I get trich I will post that too, I wont care much for your little victory dance either.
Me? What would I be victorious about? I'm missing something. What do you hope to observe/learn or achieve? Are you wanting it to ferment so you can use it for compost? Excuse me for asking I guess.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: anonjon]
#14607074 - 06/13/11 03:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
anonjon said:
Quote:
ManicMongrel said: I'm making compost by attempting to use a controlled bacterial culture. I'm guessing you used rye berries and if thats the case then I'm not very surprised your infected shitpile didn't perform all that well.
As for trich growing on pasteurized manure? Sound like you went a little hard on the pasteurization man.
You are welcome to disagree with me mate, I'm not hell bent on proving anything. I'm experimenting and the results looked good enough so far, so I decided to share the results. The pictures talk for them selves, and if I get trich I will post that too, I wont care much for your little victory dance either.
Me? What would I be victorious about? I'm missing something. What do you hope to observe/learn or achieve? Are you wanting it to ferment so you can use it for compost? Excuse me for asking I guess.
Doesn't seem like you read the initial post, anyway the idea was to try to make very nutritions compost with as good contam resistance as possible. It might not sound very convincing and you could easily make million arguments for why it wont work but, I'm in experimentation mood and decided to test it. This is not quite the same as bacterial contam in any bulk substrate like you compared it to.
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: SKrink]
#14607160 - 06/13/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SKrink said: Very interesting. I have been experimenting (non-myco-related) with anaerobic fermentation for my kitchen waste compost, and those microbes continue to amaze me.
Anyway you might have stumbled upon this already, but if not: check out Carsten/Mycello's awesome thread: Grain spawn without pressure cooking (Fermented grain/substrate techniques) Lots of good info and ideas there, might take awhile to sift through though.
Keep the updates and info coming!
Thanks
It can be hard to predict the outcomes in the microbial world, things never stop to surprise you.
That was a really interesting thread, fermenting rye with ordinary bacterial contam to turn it into a nice substrate is just awesome
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
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anonjon
Partially Right

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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14607198 - 06/13/11 04:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ManicMongrel said: Doesn't seem like you read the initial post,
Yeah, I guess not. I definitely missed this:
Quote:
ManicMongrel said:After the pasteurization is done, they need to ferment for at least a week at room temperature. This is the anaerobic part, the substrate will be full of lactic acid and smells sour and pretty bad. The substrate then needs fresh air for at least another week before its finally done. When its finished you should have a substrate that is only attractive to dung fungi and very little else.
I get your premise now neway.
So, are you going to then use it as is after it has sat outside for a week or will you repasteurize it right before use?
I forget where I read it, but I've read before about some kind of acid treatment to pre-digest the lignins. Can't remember if it was lactic acid..er now I remember, lime. But who knows, maybe lactic acid does something similar.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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SKrink
KING MOB


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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14608804 - 06/13/11 08:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ManicMongrel said:
Quote:
SKrink said: Very interesting. I have been experimenting (non-myco-related) with anaerobic fermentation for my kitchen waste compost, and those microbes continue to amaze me.
Anyway you might have stumbled upon this already, but if not: check out Carsten/Mycello's awesome thread: Grain spawn without pressure cooking (Fermented grain/substrate techniques) Lots of good info and ideas there, might take awhile to sift through though.
Keep the updates and info coming!
Thanks
It can be hard to predict the outcomes in the microbial world, things never stop to surprise you.
That was a really interesting thread, fermenting rye with ordinary bacterial contam to turn it into a nice substrate is just awesome 
I know with my kitchen waste fermentation experiments, it's lactobacillus working in anaerobic conditions-- turning regular rotting food into a pickled mess that breaks down faster than regular compost when later exposed to aerobic conditions in soil. Creating healthy fertile soil more quickly than a large compost heap. Kinda affirms what you're saying about your process involving lactic acid, anaerobic, then aerobic.
Weirdly enough, the anaerobic stage doesn't stink for me. I know I got it right when my bucket smells fruity. Only when it goes aerobic does it stink. But then again, you're using dung so stink is not surprising.
Eagerly awaiting the results on your contam-resistance factor!
--------------------
SWEET POTATO HOME FRIES
HOW TO USE A PENIS ENVY SPORE SWAB
... Oh mighty masticator, salivator, vocalizer, swallower, licker biter sucker brow-knitter looker blinker rubbernecker thumber prodder up-yours fingerer ringwearer nosepicker waver drinker armlifter bodybender hipswiveler kneer springer runner ZERO::::::::OOOOOOOOO:::::::: RUN!!!
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: anonjon]
#14611057 - 06/14/11 09:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
anonjon said:
I get your premise now neway.
So, are you going to then use it as is after it has sat outside for a week or will you repasteurize it right before use?
I forget where I read it, but I've read before about some kind of acid treatment to pre-digest the lignins. Can't remember if it was lactic acid..er now I remember, lime. But who knows, maybe lactic acid does something similar.
Luckily I didn't have to re pasteurize it , the pan mycelia grows vigorously now so it works well in that sense. I'm going to test contam resistance next, I'm quite eager to see how the fruits turn out as well.
Lignin is supposedly very tough, could be that its not even affected by low pH. The lactic acid is not a very strong acid, it will definitely dissolve a lot of fiber structures but probably not celluloses or lignin. I believe the lactic acid is catabolized to CO2 and water in the aerob period, raising the pH again, which is probably why the fungus started to grow. I'm not sure what happens in the aerob part, I have only observed that there needs to be one before the mycelia appears.
-------------------- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility - Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013] "Familiarity breeds contempt"
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LayinUp
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14611118 - 06/14/11 09:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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so basically prepping this sub takes a week+? eww i always thought proper pasteurization and high spawn ratios were adequate to prevent contamination!
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: LayinUp]
#14611256 - 06/14/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LayinUp said: so basically prepping this sub takes a week+? eww i always thought proper pasteurization and high spawn ratios were adequate to prevent contamination!
Its usually adequate for sure but, I wanted to see if I could take it a step further and see if I could make something close to trich proof. I live on the countryside in an student apartment with LOTS of trich spore flying around, of all kinds, especially grass mold. There is no forgiveness for being sloppy when I'm pasteurizing, if its not thorough it will grow mold, no exceptions.
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LayinUp
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14611382 - 06/14/11 10:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ManicMongrel said: Its usually adequate for sure but, I wanted to see if I could take it a step further and see if I could make something close to trich proof. I live on the countryside in an student apartment with LOTS of trich spore flying around, of all kinds, especially grass mold. There is no forgiveness for being sloppy when I'm pasteurizing, if its not thorough it will grow mold, no exceptions.
yeah i get you man. if you succeed in making this actually contam proof, or near contam proof, you should totally open an E-store and sell that shit. there isn't a noob alive that wouldn't buy contam resistant bulk sub ~_^
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: SKrink]
#14616237 - 06/15/11 08:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Time for update!

Looking good on the contam front, both have been exposed to grass, grain and fruit mold a few weeks ago. The trich spores has been there from the start of the aerob period.
- The big jar had a trich infected panaeolus backup culture on the bottom of it, before the culture was buried in the new substrate. The pan mycelia was dormant but woke up while the substrate was brewing, its thriving as you can see, and there is no sign of trich expanding anywhere. The trich mycelia is dormant, though hard to predict if it will wake up.
- The small one is the same as last time, it has only been exposed to trich spores. No trich to spot here either. On a side note, the water level has shrunk, not sure if it has vaporized, been drained by the culture or both.
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Edited by ManicMongrel (06/15/11 08:58 AM)
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just me
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14616372 - 06/15/11 08:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The big jar had a trich infected panaeolus backup culture on the bottom of it, before it was buried in the new substrate.
 
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Sillicybin
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14616838 - 06/15/11 10:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Man, that makes me a little queasy just looking at those jars.
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: Sillicybin]
#14616882 - 06/15/11 11:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sillicybin said: Man, that makes me a little queasy just looking at those jars. 
Ah... The things we do to get high... Kind of make you reflect sometimes, especially after this job
I have to admit, having it all bagged and bottled gave a weird sense of relief. It smelled bad while mixing it, now it just smells a little sour, thats all.
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14619062 - 06/15/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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man i like playin in the mud when im high, not not getting filthy
im alllllllll about what youre trying to do here
im so organic bro, i wanna stick my toes in the dirt and just stay there HJAAAAAAAAAA
even with what you got going on Mongrel, you could improve on some things(im sure youre thinking way more than i am) like moisture content
maybe the water is helping keep "contamination" down somehow in your fun experiment, but its definitely not helping it fruit at full potential.
maintaining optimal performance, while controlling competitor spores etc. is where this needs to head  
but you already knew
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14619865 - 06/15/11 09:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC... NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: just me]
#14632749 - 06/18/11 08:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Fruiting time!
The jars are close to fully colonized, the small uncolonized patch should be covered soon. If not, its a small test whether naked substrate is vulnerable to contams. Both jars are reasonably moist at the moment with no excess water at the bottom.

The monotub has 14 breathing holes, I washed it with soap and water so its reasonably clean. The filters are thin enough to allow gas exchange, they are unsterilized and definitely have mold spores on them.

As you can see this setup has the cleanness of an average meth-lab. So remains to see if the fruiting turns to an epic failure by getting completely blasted with trich or actually produce some healthy potent fruits.
Quote:
just me said: man i like playin in the mud when im high, not not getting filthy
im alllllllll about what youre trying to do here
im so organic bro, i wanna stick my toes in the dirt and just stay there HJAAAAAAAAAA
even with what you got going on Mongrel, you could improve on some things(im sure youre thinking way more than i am) like moisture content
maybe the water is helping keep "contamination" down somehow in your fun experiment, but its definitely not helping it fruit at full potential.
maintaining optimal performance, while controlling competitor spores etc. is where this needs to head  
but you already knew 
Thanks for the input, do you think I should add some salt water to the bottom of the tub to keep the humidity more stable? Do the breather holes seem sufficient?
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14632774 - 06/18/11 08:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ManicMongrel said: salt water ... to keep the humidity more stable?
what is the relationship between them?
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: higgledy-piggledy]
#14632786 - 06/18/11 08:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
higgledy-piggledy said:
Quote:
ManicMongrel said: salt water ... to keep the humidity more stable?
what is the relationship between them?
I just add salt to make sure microorganisms don't thrive in it, it evaporates quicker though, which isn't all that good.
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higgledy-piggledy
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14632812 - 06/18/11 09:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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common salt (nacl) is hygroscopic.
the hydrated ions like to have a hydrosphere, they attract water molecules really good (hydrogen bridge bonds and so on; 9th grade).
ergo, the water does evaporate... slower.
salty water in fc -> no es bueno
edit: why do you care about contaminats at all? i thought you want to put them to the test?!
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: higgledy-piggledy]
#14632868 - 06/18/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You're correct, salt ions lowers vapor pressure so it evaporates slower, I just heard it once without giving it much thought.
Salt does retard the growth of most microorganisms though, the ion-gates(whatever its called in english) on their membranes keep ion content at fixed level which creates a huge osmotic pressure difference that suck the microbes dry.
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14632960 - 06/18/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interesting. Keep up the innovation/experimentation, Manic Mongrel!
Edited by husmmoor (06/18/11 09:56 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: husmmoor]
#14633042 - 06/18/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate
Honestly, this has as much chance of success as developing a T-Bone steak which a dog won't snatch off the table, if given the chance.
Stated another way, it's like making a food that a person in Dallas will love, but a person in Fort Worth will leave completely alone. It just ain't gonna happen. Sorry. It's the reason we've developed sterile techniques. Research and development is always good, but be aware of the needs of the organism and it's competitors you're researching first. RR
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ManicMongrel
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14633267 - 06/18/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate
... be aware of the needs of the organism and it's competitors you're researching first. RR
Which was the point of fermenting it, its hopefully all fairly composted material, making a less appealing menu. Not everything thrive in compost thats already occupied by shitloads of bacterias and their waste. We'll see soon enough. Its close to fruiting now, suppose its when its most vulnerable.
This sounds a lot like an auto-reply. I'm not exactly challenging classic procedures here, I'm imitating the premises a common wild shroom has, to see why they grow so easily in the wild without being eaten by contams.
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14633572 - 06/18/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
why they grow so easily in the wild without being eaten by contams.
That's why it takes a 200 ton tree in the forest to produce a few pounds of oyster or reishi mushrooms per year, when twice that many mushrooms can be grown on a ten pound straw substrate in six weeks.
In nature, P cubensis grows in cow pastures, but one needs to pick a 100 acre field to get the amount of cubes he can get from a mini-greenhouse in his bedroom. Remember, we're not duplicating nature with mushroom growing the way we do with plant farming. We're improving on it greatly.
One other thing to consider is that breaking down a substrate via composting will make it more suitable for contaminant molds, not less. Trichoderma rarely inhabits fresh material in nature, but once a tree or manure pile, etc., is attacked by other organisms, molds then move in and finish the job.
I'm not trying to be discouraging of research, but rather gently prodding in a different direction. RR
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14634061 - 06/18/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
why they grow so easily in the wild without being eaten by contams.
That's why it takes a 200 ton tree in the forest to produce a few pounds of oyster or reishi mushrooms per year, when twice that many mushrooms can be grown on a ten pound straw substrate in six weeks.
In nature, P cubensis grows in cow pastures, but one needs to pick a 100 acre field to get the amount of cubes he can get from a mini-greenhouse in his bedroom. Remember, we're not duplicating nature with mushroom growing the way we do with plant farming. We're improving on it greatly.
One other thing to consider is that breaking down a substrate via composting will make it more suitable for contaminant molds, not less. Trichoderma rarely inhabits fresh material in nature, but once a tree or manure pile, etc., is attacked by other organisms, molds then move in and finish the job.
I'm not trying to be discouraging of research, but rather gently prodding in a different direction. RR
I dont believe mushrooms grow in mono-cultures in nature either, I am aware we give one species monopoly on the resources when we farm them. Any celluloses eating fungi will need as much surface area as possible since the crystal fences of celluloses fibers are not broken down very easily which is why wood rot quite slow, same principle give any straw or sawdust based substrate much more yield for the same amount in the form of a woodblock.
I thought the types of trichoderma that mainly causing problems with mushroom farming or any food storage, are the ones specialized on metabolizing high energy compounds for rapid growth and reproduction.
One thing I have observed though, is that food or substrate with bacterial contamination rarely grow mold, rather disintegrate and dry out. I dont exactly claim to be an expert on trichoderma, but I have never seen it grow on dung or other things with high bacterial content, which I take as an indication that it doesnt happen often.
Anyway, I got the idea to see if substrate fermented to resemble dung would have better contamination resistance. I'm not sure if I succeeded at the fermentation completely but, whatever happened it doesn't seem to favor mold as much, since its been exposed to both mold spores and mycelia. It will never be failsafe for mold of course, but if it proves to grow mold less frequently its at least an improvement.
The reason I chose a wild Panaeoulus strain is that it grows very quick and is very common in wet season, I doubt you need a 100 acre field to match a monotub.
Thanks for the reply though, I didn't know typical contamination mold could be secondary decomposers, I had the impression they were prime since they often attack food like fruit, bread, jam and vegetables.
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