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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Rahz]
    #14599359 - 06/12/11 03:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I not really agree. I think, everybody sees the world with unique eyes. There are similarities, but even there are differences. So imho it's not correct to say you is me, as I might never see/experience the world through your perspective :shrug:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599386 - 06/12/11 03:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It's only the situation that is different.




Situations begin by being novel to the viewers perspective. That doesn't reflect on the self, unless we are describing the self as a product of circumstance. In that case, the self isn't really anything at all except a product of circumstance. I prefer to view self as the direct experience of life, in which case the self is generic, and the only thing that creates diversity is the 'situation'. This doesn't give rise to a specific viewpoint of reality. It's just a basis on which to examine the world without being the center of attention. We are the same on all the basic fronts. The differences people speak of aren't fundamental, they are experiential, and biased, guided by the past. How would it be if there were no experiential basis on which to form opinion?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Rahz]
    #14599419 - 06/12/11 03:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I tend to disagree. Even if we would experience situations similarly, our experiences still would happen in our own heads.
If I suddenly would see through your eyes in your head, with your brain and mind, I would start to wonder maybe.
On the other hand I agree that we are able to make very strong approximations so that it almost looks like as if we would see through the eyes of another, but physically, that is not the case.
So, does us bring that further to the question if the self is an illusion if it never can be experienced through a different (even replicated) body, or can it ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599423 - 06/12/11 03:58 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
So, does us bring that further to the question...


A little dyslexia there. :grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599438 - 06/12/11 04:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I tend to disagree. Even if we would experience situations similarly, our experiences still would happen in our own heads.
If I suddenly would see through your eyes in your head, with your brain and mind, I would start to wonder maybe.
On the other hand I agree that we are able to make very strong approximations so that it almost looks like as if we would see through the eyes of another, but physically, that is not the case.
So, does us bring that further to the question if the self is an illusion if it never can be experienced through a different (even replicated) body, or can it ?




Experiences are wildly different, so it is difficult to accept that we would be (almost ?) the same without them. It is an idea, and it isn't possible to prove, being that each circumstance comes with particular viewpoints, but it seems that it is the differences in perspective that create the 'differences of self'. -It is easy to point to the exterior/circumstantial differences.- Which interior differences can we describe to some meaningful degree?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14599492 - 06/12/11 04:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
So, does us bring that further to the question...


A little dyslexia there. :grin:



That happens when my 'mother tongue' slips out :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599497 - 06/12/11 04:58 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In Russia, us brings that!


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Rahz]
    #14599502 - 06/12/11 05:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I wanted to say, that it doesn't matter what experiences we make and what external or internal 'programs' rule out identity.
It's the continuation of the experience of the self, that makes the OP to speak about a non-illusionary self, as far as I understood it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (06/12/11 05:12 AM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14599506 - 06/12/11 05:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
In Russia, us brings that!



Hehe, no, in germane-land it's 'brings us that' :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14604640 - 06/13/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The illusion is somewhat powered down when you go to sleep, but not completely broken. You still dream, and the underlying cause of the illusion of the "self", your brain, is being maintained. However once that underlying cause of the emergent property we call the "self" is severed it can never come back.




Not really sure how you can call it an illusion.

Behind every illusion is a reality or a substance that lies behind the illusion, the illusion is only a mis-interpetaton of something that does exist.

You say that a link between "the self" and the brain is "severed" but what is there to be severed if the self does not exist?

You say the self stops existing with the demolition of the brain but if the self doesn't exist what is there to stop existing?

The reason rebirth is real is because we're never really in the world to begin with.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14604684 - 06/13/11 05:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

We just found out that the self is not an illusion, because there are scientific reasons for its existence :hissyfit:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14604833 - 06/13/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You're basically saying the self exists because it doesn't. Is that how it works?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: xFrockx]
    #14604882 - 06/13/11 07:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is a rock solid new age belief so don't mess.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14605111 - 06/13/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

IME the "new age" is about 4.

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14605301 - 06/13/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

The illusion is somewhat powered down when you go to sleep, but not completely broken. You still dream, and the underlying cause of the illusion of the "self", your brain, is being maintained. However once that underlying cause of the emergent property we call the "self" is severed it can never come back.




Not really sure how you can call it an illusion.

Behind every illusion is a reality or a substance that lies behind the illusion, the illusion is only a mis-interpetaton of something that does exist.

You say that a link between "the self" and the brain is "severed" but what is there to be severed if the self does not exist?

You say the self stops existing with the demolition of the brain but if the self doesn't exist what is there to stop existing?

The reason rebirth is real is because we're never really in the world to begin with.




If you had read through the thread you would have realized I retracted my use of the word "illusion". It was a poor choice. You also would have realized that DieCommie showed me the error in my thought experiment. You cannot have two exact copies of something because for them to be exactly the same, they would have to occupy the same spacial position and position in time.

And what do you mean by
Quote:

we're never really in the world to begin with


? That is bullshit. Where else would "we" be, and what do you define "we" as?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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