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Offlinetimelapses
Life in free form
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Registered: 01/26/11
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14601871 - 06/12/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Sarcasm is hard to convey through e-mails or posting.  I don't agree on the principle that it's the same if its a dollar or a billion.  But the wealth disparity like the economy is rigged for the rich economically and politically like Vegas is rigged for the house. Such a global economy as it's set up, is bullshit.

Revolutions have happened in similar circumstances and it's probably heading towards that.


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Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14601929 - 06/12/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Ok no one allows you nor anyone else to live. That is an inalienable human right, no one has a right to prevent you from that. One hundred or one billion the premise is the same, you want something for nothing. Yes I do have an overwhelming sense of greed, I want the absolute best for myself and the ones I love, no one else. That is what keeps the advancement of the human race going. GREED is GREAT! Selfishness is a virtue as well, without either we would still be living in caves and eating the daily catch.

That comment above about the good taxpaying Americans? Really??? The large majority of taxpayers get very little in the way of benefits from the taxes paid. However those with a negative tax rate have the most benefit.





you sound like gordon gekko. more power to you, and bud fox and blue star. greed for lack of a better word, is good.


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: imachavel]
    #14602006 - 06/12/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It is good, I wish more people thought this way. Unfortunately most people would rather save Blue Star type companies, because those people cannot be laid off! Gasp, oh no :frown: They seem to forget about the people who are employed because of stuff like this happening, you know auctioneers, movers, demolition crews, construction crews to build the new company that steps in to fill the void, all the people that rich evil bastard employs. Like maintenance men for his home and office, designers, cooks, servers, whiskey makers, wine makers, car manufactures, mechanics, even your health care is lower because of them. I only can hope that some day more people realize this.

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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #14602016 - 06/12/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Ok no one allows you nor anyone else to live. That is an inalienable human right, no one has a right to prevent you from that. One hundred or one billion the premise is the same, you want something for nothing. Yes I do have an overwhelming sense of greed, I want the absolute best for myself and the ones I love, no one else. That is what keeps the advancement of the human race going. GREED is GREAT! Selfishness is a virtue as well, without either we would still be living in caves and eating the daily catch.

That comment above about the good taxpaying Americans? Really??? The large majority of taxpayers get very little in the way of benefits from the taxes paid. However those with a negative tax rate have the most benefit.




You are once again completely backwards.  Greed didn't get us out of caves, working together did.  Selfishness is not a virtue, however selfLESSness is.  Greed doesn't keep the human race going, compassion for others of the human race does.

Maybe you should listen to one of the richest men in the world, and how he will be voting for obama again: Warren Buffet.

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/warren-buffett-read-lips-raise-taxes/story?id=12199889

"The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we'll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on," Buffett explained.

This man, the third richest man in the world, signed a pledge that he would be donating over half his wealth to charity, along with many other billionaires.  These are the people that understand the system and what the system has done for them, and try to give back.  Good people. 

“The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

Mr Buffett, who runs the investment group Berkshire Hathaway and is widely regarded as the world’s most successful investor, said that he was a Democrat because Republicans are more likely to think: “I’m making $80 million a year – God must have intended me to have a lower tax rate.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14602224 - 06/12/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You are once again completely backwards.  Greed didn't get us out of caves, working together did.  Selfishness is not a virtue, however selfLESSness is.  Greed doesn't keep the human race going, compassion for others of the human race does.

If you consider selflessness a virtue then you should hand over every possession you have to someone with less, when you get sick and have only enough money to buy the meds that will save your life you must give them to another less fortunate person. Greed most definitely got us out of caves, if it was not for greed Rome would have never had running water, it would have never had roads, or coliseums. However after the fall of the Roman empire what happened? The dark ages came about due to people thinking like you, altruism is a very evil notion. Altruism is what caused the death and despair of countless millions over the history of time. What happened in Russia when they took greed out of the equation and decided everyone would work together or die? You guessed it, over 30 MILLION perished, because they could not work for themselves.

Maybe you should listen to one of the richest men in the world, and how he will be voting for obama again: Warren Buffet.

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/warren-buffett-read-lips-raise-taxes/story?id=12199889

"The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we'll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on," Buffett explained.

This man, the third richest man in the world, signed a pledge that he would be donating over half his wealth to charity, along with many other billionaires.  These are the people that understand the system and what the system has done for them, and try to give back.  Good people. 

“The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

Mr Buffett, who runs the investment group Berkshire Hathaway and is widely regarded as the world’s most successful investor, said that he was a Democrat because Republicans are more likely to think: “I’m making $80 million a year – God must have intended me to have a lower tax rate.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece




Savvy investor, yes he is. Smart man? Not really, no one just gives rich people money, they either invest with or buy from them. That is how they get the money, you and others freely hand it over. The statement he makes about paying less tax by percentage may be true, if he does not include the taxes paid by his company on profits before he gets paid. However, it is his company, so the taxes being paid are his as well, couple that with the taxes taken from his salary and it easily outpaces any house cleaner. Not to mention his capital gains taxes, state, local, sales, investment, and the taxes he pays on oh yes CHARITABLE DONATIONS. Why must he give his money to someone else to distribute as they see fit because he wants to donate money to a youth program or a food kitchen?

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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14602285 - 06/12/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You're trying to say Warren Buffet is not a smart man?  Get real.  You're trying to say that the third richest man in the world asking for higher taxes on the rich, the man that said he would donate 99% of his wealth... Isn't doing something good?  Get real.

Also: Everybody knows business degrees are a JOKE.  There is a reason your average joe shmoe goes to college for a BUSINESS degree.  It takes little to no real intelligence to get.  There is nothing innovative, nothing groundbreaking, in a business degree that you would not be able to learn by reading a damn book.  Every business major I know is a damn slacker.  They're the ones paying me to take their calculus final because they didn't show up to class more than three times the whole semester, even though they never had to wake up before 1PM.

Seriously though, PM me this woman's contact info, I'm struggling.  I could use a fat ass scholarship.  Help me find a job, because the last 15 applications I've filled out in the past week seem to be going completely ignored.  I don't accept handouts even though I could, because I don't think that I am struggling enough (although after next month's rent/food/insurance bills I will be pretty damn close to being homeless after that).  There are people that need it more than I do.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14602353 - 06/12/11 06:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You're trying to say Warren Buffet is not a smart man?  Get real.




He's apparently not smart enough to realize he could have been handing over considerably more of his money each year to the IRS. They won't refuse to take it, I guarantee you. Or is Buffet saying he won't give more of his money to the government until they force him to? Sure sounds like it to me. How does that make him any different - or any smarter - than the rest of us?

Quote:

You're trying to say that the third richest man in the world asking for higher taxes on the rich, the man that said he would donate 99% of his wealth... Isn't doing something good?




He said he'd donate 99% of his wealth? Really? You said he was going to donate "over half" of it. Which is it?

Also, note where that wealth is going - to charities, not to the IRS.







Phred


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: Phred]
    #14602427 - 06/12/11 06:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/15/news/newsmakers/Warren_Buffett_Pledge_Letter.fortune/

FORTUNE -- In 2006, I made a commitment to gradually give all of my Berkshire Hathaway stock to philanthropic foundations. I couldn't be happier with that decision.

Now, Bill and Melinda Gates and I are asking hundreds of rich Americans to pledge at least 50% of their wealth to charity. So I think it is fitting that I reiterate my intentions and explain the thinking that lies behind them.


First, my pledge: More than 99% of my wealth will go to philanthropy during my lifetime or at death. Measured by dollars, this commitment is large. In a comparative sense, though, many individuals give more to others every day.

Millions of people who regularly contribute to churches, schools, and other organizations thereby relinquish the use of funds that would otherwise benefit their own families. The dollars these people drop into a collection plate or give to United Way mean forgone movies, dinners out, or other personal pleasures. In contrast, my family and I will give up nothing we need or want by fulfilling this 99% pledge.

Moreover, this pledge does not leave me contributing the most precious asset, which is time. Many people, including -- I'm proud to say -- my three children, give extensively of their own time and talents to help others. Gifts of this kind often prove far more valuable than money. A struggling child, befriended and nurtured by a caring mentor, receives a gift whose value far exceeds what can be bestowed by a check. My sister, Doris, extends significant person-to-person help daily. I've done little of this.

What I can do, however, is to take a pile of Berkshire Hathaway stock certificates -- "claim checks" that when converted to cash can command far-ranging resources -- and commit them to benefit others who, through the luck of the draw, have received the short straws in life. To date about 20% of my shares have been distributed (including shares given by my late wife, Susan Buffett). I will continue to annually distribute about 4% of the shares I retain. At the latest, the proceeds from all of my Berkshire shares will be expended for philanthropic purposes by 10 years after my estate is settled. Nothing will go to endowments; I want the money spent on current needs.

This pledge will leave my lifestyle untouched and that of my children as well. They have already received significant sums for their personal use and will receive more in the future. They live comfortable and productive lives. And I will continue to live in a manner that gives me everything that I could possibly want in life.

Some material things make my life more enjoyable; many, however, would not. I like having an expensive private plane, but owning a half-dozen homes would be a burden. Too often, a vast collection of possessions ends up possessing its owner. The asset I most value, aside from health, is interesting, diverse, and long-standing friends.

My wealth has come from a combination of living in America, some lucky genes, and compound interest. Both my children and I won what I call the ovarian lottery. (For starters, the odds against my 1930 birth taking place in the U.S. were at least 30 to 1. My being male and white also removed huge obstacles that a majority of Americans then faced.)

My luck was accentuated by my living in a market system that sometimes produces distorted results, though overall it serves our country well. I've worked in an economy that rewards someone who saves the lives of others on a battlefield with a medal, rewards a great teacher with thank-you notes from parents, but rewards those who can detect the mispricing of securities with sums reaching into the billions. In short, fate's distribution of long straws is wildly capricious.

The reaction of my family and me to our extraordinary good fortune is not guilt, but rather gratitude. Were we to use more than 1% of my claim checks on ourselves, neither our happiness nor our well-being would be enhanced. In contrast, that remaining 99% can have a huge effect on the health and welfare of others. That reality sets an obvious course for me and my family: Keep all we can conceivably need and distribute the rest to society, for its needs. My pledge starts us down that course.



Please also read:
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2010/06/16/gates-buffett-600-billion-dollar-philanthropy-challenge/?iid=EL

This is billionaires they are talking about.  What about the people sitting on $10 million, or $100 million or $500 million? 

All I'm saying is, the man is saying that he needs to be taxed more.  How can you turn a cheek to the third richest man in the world saying he isn't being a taxed enough, nor are any of his ultra-wealthy companions who make up the top 5% of America?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14602626 - 06/12/11 07:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The man is not saying he can be taxed more.  He is saying other people should be taxed more.  He is fully empowered to gift 100% of his money to the government.  He can do it any time he wants to.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14602652 - 06/12/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

and I quote

"Read my lips.  Raise my taxes" - Warren Buffet

You obviously did not watch the video, or read anything that I posted, or you would never have made such a statement.  Anybody is empowered to give the government 100% of their money, anybody is empowered to give a charity 100% of the money.  That isn't the question, nor the solution.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14602679 - 06/12/11 07:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
and I quote

"Read my lips.  Raise my taxes" - Warren Buffet

You obviously did not watch the video, or read anything that I posted, or you would never have made such a statement.  Anybody is empowered to give the government 100% of their money, anybody is empowered to give a charity 100% of the money.  That isn't the question, nor the solution.




But it isn't his taxes he wants to raise, is it?

I was fully aware of what Buffet said long before I ever saw any of your posts.  Buffet can either give all his money to the government or he can fuck off.  I can assure you that I am not willing to give more than the 50+% of my income I already give to the government.  That cunt can speak for himself.  He doesn't speak for me and is a phony since he doesn't disburse all of his money.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14602702 - 06/12/11 07:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Once again.  You don't read.  At least the Pileus read my arguments and tried to counter them.

How could you ever misconstrue "Raise my taxes" as not wanting the government to... raise HIS taxes?  I don't give a fuck what you're willing to do, your money means nothing in the grand scheme of things.  If you were aware of what he said, you would know that he has pledged to distribute 99% of his wealth.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14602726 - 06/12/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Once again.  You don't read.  At least the Pileus read my arguments and tried to counter them.

How could you ever misconstrue "Raise my taxes" as not wanting the government to... raise HIS taxes?  I don't give a fuck what you're willing to do, your money means nothing in the grand scheme of things.  If you were aware of what he said, you would know that he has pledged to distribute 99% of his wealth.



WHAT FUCKING PART OF IT "ISN'T HIS TAXES HE WANTS RAISED" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?  He apparently also wants to raise taxes on other people like him who might not be that interested.  I know I'm not.  I already pay more than half my family income in taxes. 

He wants to distribute 99% of his wealth where he sees fit.  Not where the government sees fit.  If he wanted it to go where the government wants it to go he could just, wait for it, give it to the government.
:facepalm:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14602755 - 06/12/11 07:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There is no way you pay more than half of your income to income taxes.  To try and incorporate other taxes into your statement is bringing in a whole new debate.  Go start a new thread.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14602848 - 06/12/11 08:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
You're trying to say Warren Buffet is not a smart man?  Get real.  You're trying to say that the third richest man in the world asking for higher taxes on the rich, the man that said he would donate 99% of his wealth... Isn't doing something good?  Get real.

Also: Everybody knows business degrees are a JOKE.  There is a reason your average joe shmoe goes to college for a BUSINESS degree.  It takes little to no real intelligence to get.  There is nothing innovative, nothing groundbreaking, in a business degree that you would not be able to learn by reading a damn book.  Every business major I know is a damn slacker.  They're the ones paying me to take their calculus final because they didn't show up to class more than three times the whole semester, even though they never had to wake up before 1PM.

Seriously though, PM me this woman's contact info, I'm struggling.  I could use a fat ass scholarship.  Help me find a job, because the last 15 applications I've filled out in the past week seem to be going completely ignored.  I don't accept handouts even though I could, because I don't think that I am struggling enough (although after next month's rent/food/insurance bills I will be pretty damn close to being homeless after that).  There are people that need it more than I do.




She is a staunch capitalist as am I, sorry but someone with your ideals would not be worth her time nor money. Nothing personal but we both believe in the freedom to make ones own decisions without being threatened by a gun. What you are calling for and Warren Buffet in raising taxes on the very wealthy is nothing more than legalized extortion. The same thing they put mobsters in prison for. He is obviously intelligent, as is Obama, but you can be intelligent in certain aspects and still be completely ignorant of the axioms of life. He has fallen prey, in my opinion, to the misguided belief that altruism is a good thing.


: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

: behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

So what about altruism is good for human kind? If everyone was concerned only with there well being and being the happiest they could be without the moral stigma that comes with wealth these days, we would be much better off. You assume, when you disagree with this that the majority of people on this planet are morally bankrupt and that they would help no one. DO you not feel good when you help a loved one? Do you not have a sense of pride when you make a loved one smile? Have you ever done something you did not want to so that someone you cared for would not have to? If so then you are, according to your logic, an immoral human, because love is a purely selfish act. You assume that everyone is filled with irrational greed and that is just not the case, the vast majority of human beings are good people with good intentions. They do not need the feds to rob them of their wealth to help others, they can and would do it themselves. The only difference is they would get to decide, not a group of people who did not earn it nor have any personal attachment to it. Other than helping them get re-elected.

Also who thinks that a bussiness management degree is a joke? I am pretty sure that we can use emperical data to the contrary. Actually no I am positive we can.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14602858 - 06/12/11 08:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It is not another debate, you quoted him saying he paid less in taxes than his lowest rung employees, I simply disproved that statement.

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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14603750 - 06/12/11 11:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

And what empirical data would be used to prove the contrary.  Profit?  :rolleyes:

I person who gets a degree in chemistry could run a business, in fact, I just watched an outdoors show after the local news where they were talking about an ENGLISH major running a successful business.  Would you ever be able to do anything outside of business?  Probably not, but anybody from a different study could do what you do (or... should I say... Work all your life in hopes of what you want to do...).  First you get a business degree, and now you're "studying" to be a chef.  Good luck.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14603816 - 06/13/11 12:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No I am a chef, I am studying to be one of the best. I gladly spend anytime I can in a kitchen honing my craft. That is why I will succeed. Yes it would be profit, if you look at the data collected college graduates earn more over the course of their life than non college graduates. Not always do to the degree, many times it is just that the individual that was willing to go to school and learn is simply more motivated and smarter than others. So if you think taxing the wealthy is good for the average joe, and you think that hard work does not pay off, and that no matter what you do you will never have more than some meager existence, why do you continue to live in this country? Why not live in a country with "free" health care, one that will allow you to collect unemployment for over a year while doing nothing to earn a wage for yourself? You guessed it, YOU ALREADY DO! If you do not have the money for a doctor and you have no job or do not earn very much you will be taken care of. Some very stupid people got together and already passed laws stating an emergency room cannot turn you away. Regardless of your ability to pay. Robbery is nice when it is done by someone else for your benefit is it not?

And no, not anybody could do what I do, let me know the next time you butcher a lamb and make your own crown racks, or the next time you grow your own food and can it. If you happen to find yourself making baklava from scratch and you cannot get the sheets of phyllo paper thin without tearing let me know so I can laugh. I bet you could not tell me a proper temperature chart for a steak without Google. Do you know if asparagus is in season now? How about you make me some pomegranate caviar to go over my key lime sorbet? It is not nearly as easy as you think to be a top notch chef, that is why the ones who are great get paid hundreds of thousands a year. Because they can do what others cannot, creativity in the kitchen cannot be learned, some people just have the knack. The next time I am making botarga I will be thinking of you and how easy it is to create a masterpiece from scratch.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14603820 - 06/13/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Actually I would really like you to answer my question about altruism. What about it is good for humanity?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Please let the Bush tax cuts expire. [Re: PileusSonofGalt] * 1
    #14603835 - 06/13/11 12:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
It is not another debate, you quoted him saying he paid less in taxes than his lowest rung employees, I simply disproved that statement.



Can you please repost the part about you disproving that?  I missed it above - thanks!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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