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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14596526 - 06/11/11 03:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I doubt any human could ever completely remove suffering from their consciousness.
Yep. Although it's certainly an ideal worth trying for IMO.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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JackofSpades
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: deCypher]
#14598894 - 06/12/11 12:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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deCypher said:
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Icelander said: I doubt any human could ever completely remove suffering from their consciousness.
Yep. Although it's certainly an ideal worth trying for IMO.
From what I understand its not about removing suffering so much as it is realizing that suffering is caused by the illusion of self. Once you realize that there is no self and therefore no one to suffer, it just stops, it isn't really a purification or removal process. Suffering just abruptly ends as it requires someone to experience it. So of course, no person could ever remove suffering from their consciousness so long as they continue to be something rather than just be.
I obviously don't though and this could be entirely wrong but this is my understand of how it works.
I have a question for Icelander though and anyone here who believes enlightenment is bullshit. I assume Icelander that you don't believe enlightenment is real (correct me if I'm wrong)...
What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
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 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
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JackofSpades said: What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
Now, I'm no Icelander, but I gotta say: so what? I could claim the same thing for myself right now.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa



Registered: 05/12/11
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Sleepwalker said:
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JackofSpades said: What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
Now, I'm no Icelander, but I gotta say: so what? I could claim the same thing for myself right now.
I agree with this, it all comes down to self.
Lah'Kesh
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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JackofSpades
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
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JackofSpades said: What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
Now, I'm no Icelander, but I gotta say: so what? I could claim the same thing for myself right now.
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Sleepwalker said:
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JackofSpades said: What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
Now, I'm no Icelander, but I gotta say: so what? I could claim the same thing for myself right now.
Well, yeah, of course. But you aren't, so what do you make of the people who do make such a claim (these three people specifically) you just think they are lying to people or insane or what? Like, say you meet Sri Ramana Mahrashi and you say enlightenment is bullshit and he goes, "no, I have achieved self-realization and can see very clearly it is the truth", what would be your response...
I'm not trying to convince you enlightenment is real, I'm just curious as to what you think of these people is all.
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 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
Edited by JackofSpades (06/12/11 02:32 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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JackofSpades said: I'm not trying to convince you enlightenment is real, I'm just curious as to what you think of these people is all.
I think they're suffering from delusional narcissistic cosmic significance.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JackofSpades
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599365 - 06/12/11 03:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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JackofSpades said: I'm not trying to convince you enlightenment is real, I'm just curious as to what you think of these people is all.
I think they're suffering from delusional narcissistic cosmic significance.
Well, the thing thats odd, at least in Maharshi's case, is that after finding whatever he found, he went to South India and just sat in silence for twenty years (I need to double check but thats what I've read) and only became known because of other people's experiences of being around him...He then never wrote a book or asked for anything from anyone. He just told people to realize their true nature by asking the question "who am I" and by investigating through self-inquirey...Narcissism doesn't really seem like an appropriate diagnosis but i suppose you could just write him off as delusional.
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 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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JackofSpades said: Narcissism doesn't really seem like an appropriate diagnosis...
Why not? He believed he was special in that he achieved something that others have not..IMO, all he did was rationalize that his personal understanding of reality corresponds to the ultimate truth in order to gain a sense of "cosmic significance", meaning that he yearned to gain a sense of being a special, significant thing in reality. This is classic human narcissism, and has its roots in death anxiety.
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JackofSpades said: but i suppose you could just write him off as delusional.
Yes, he was delusional in thinking that he was more special and significant than other people, places, or things..most, if not all humans are at least somewhat delusional in this manner, although to varying extents.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (06/12/11 03:44 AM)
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JackofSpades
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599470 - 06/12/11 04:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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JackofSpades said: Narcissism doesn't really seem like an appropriate diagnosis...
Why not? He believed he was special in that he achieved something that others have not..IMO, all he did was rationalize that his personal understanding of reality corresponds to the ultimate truth in order to gain a sense of "cosmic significance", meaning that he yearned to gain a sense of being a special, significant thing in reality. This is classic human narcissism, and has its roots in death anxiety.
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JackofSpades said: but i suppose you could just write him off as delusional.
Yes, he was delusional in thinking that he was more special and significant than other people, places, or things..most, if not all humans are at least somewhat delusional in this manner, although to varying extents.
Well, if you read the very few things recorded by him you would find this is not at all the case. He never claimed to have achieved something special or that he was more significant to other people. He just claimed to have realized his true nature, peace and happiness.
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 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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JackofSpades said: Well, if you read the very few things recorded by him you would find this is not at all the case. He never claimed to have achieved something special or that he was more significant to other people.
Ramana Maharshi
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He urged people who came to him to practice self-enquiry He directed people to look inward rather than seeking outside themselves for Realization. He...offer[ed] spiritual guidance to anyone of any background who came to him
He considered himself to be a teacher, with something special and significant to offer to the world..he did claim to achieve self-realization and a clear perception of truth.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JackofSpades
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599507 - 06/12/11 05:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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JackofSpades said: Well, if you read the very few things recorded by him you would find this is not at all the case. He never claimed to have achieved something special or that he was more significant to other people.
Ramana Maharshi
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He urged people who came to him to practice self-enquiry He directed people to look inward rather than seeking outside themselves for Realization. He...offer[ed] spiritual guidance to anyone of any background who came to him
He considered himself to be a teacher, with something special and significant to offer to the world..he did claim to achieve self-realization and a clear perception of truth.
I don't agree that would be enough to label someone narcissistic, delusional--sure but not narcissistic. But thats just my opinion
--------------------
 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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He thought he was important..how is that not narcissistic?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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JackofSpades said: say you meet Sri Ramana Mahrashi and you say enlightenment is bullshit and he goes, "no, I have achieved self-realization and can see very clearly it is the truth", what would be your response...
I reckon he would agree with you that it's bullshit!
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Visitor: When one attains Self-realization, what is the guarantee that one has really attained it and is not under an illusion like the lunatic who thinks he is Napoleon or some such thing.
Bhagavan: In a sense, speaking of Self-realization is a delusion. It is only because people have been under the delusion that the non-Self is the Self and the unreal the Real that they have to be weaned out of it by other delusion called Self-realization; because actually the Self always is the Self and there is no such thing as realizing it. Who is to realize what, and how, when all that exists is the Self and nothing but the Self?
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JackofSpades
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599673 - 06/12/11 06:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said: He thought he was important..how is that not narcissistic?
You're horribly distorting this. The man didn't speak for two decades and lived alone on a mountain. Not exactly an ego trip. People came asking him to teach and he did. He never once claimed to be important or special. Like most realized people he actually claimed the opposite that his realization was quite ordinary and simple.
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 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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JackofSpades
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Chronic7]
#14599675 - 06/12/11 06:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The Chronic said:
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JackofSpades said: say you meet Sri Ramana Mahrashi and you say enlightenment is bullshit and he goes, "no, I have achieved self-realization and can see very clearly it is the truth", what would be your response...
I reckon he would agree with you that it's bullshit!
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Visitor: When one attains Self-realization, what is the guarantee that one has really attained it and is not under an illusion like the lunatic who thinks he is Napoleon or some such thing.
Bhagavan: In a sense, speaking of Self-realization is a delusion. It is only because people have been under the delusion that the non-Self is the Self and the unreal the Real that they have to be weaned out of it by other delusion called Self-realization; because actually the Self always is the Self and there is no such thing as realizing it. Who is to realize what, and how, when all that exists is the Self and nothing but the Self?
of course but if you want to ignorantly talk about it like you understand it (such as myself ) then you have to use language that distorts it.
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 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
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Poid said: He thought he was important..how is that not narcissistic?
You're horribly distorting this. The man didn't speak for two decades and lived alone on a mountain.
Why did he act so unusually? Surely because he didn't think of himself as being different/unique/special in relation to his contemporaries. 
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JackofSpades said: He never once claimed to be important or special.
Perhaps, but he did seem to think his teachings were pretty damn special.
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JackofSpades said: Like most realized people he actually claimed the opposite that his realization was quite ordinary and simple.
Yeah, he considered himself "realized" (whatever that means)..if "realization" is quite ordinary and simple, then why is it generally treated like it's a big deal? If it were ordinary and simple, then there wouldn't be an entire forum dedicated to it and related topics.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JackofSpades
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599688 - 06/12/11 07:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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JackofSpades said:
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Poid said: He thought he was important..how is that not narcissistic?
You're horribly distorting this. The man didn't speak for two decades and lived alone on a mountain.
Why did he act so unusually? Surely because he didn't think of himself as being different/unique/special in relation to his contemporaries. 
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JackofSpades said: He never once claimed to be important or special.
Perhaps, but he did seem to think his teachings were pretty damn special.
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JackofSpades said: Like most realized people he actually claimed the opposite that his realization was quite ordinary and simple.
Yeah, he considered himself "realized" (whatever that means)..if "realization" is quite ordinary and simple, then why is it generally treated like it's a big deal? If it were ordinary and simple, then there wouldn't be an entire forum dedicated to it and related topics.
Poid i like you but you just love to argue and I'm not interested in it. I like to have conversations that lead me to a deeper understanding, not those that exist as a competition. If you think he's narcissistic that's fine. I personally don't think he is
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 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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All humans are narcissistic to varying degrees..why would he be an exception? Unless he really was that special...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JackofSpades
Peace



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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599698 - 06/12/11 07:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said: All humans are narcissistic to varying degrees..why would he be an exception? Unless he really was that special... 
who is it that is special?
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 If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Maharshi loved himself, did he not? See, narcissist.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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