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Icelander
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Phred]
#14600617 - 06/12/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah that would have been a clearer exchange. 
As I said I really don't care if some people support, for non religious reasons the things that religious nuts do. IMO they are a minority.
Again I'll make the case that Republicans are not fiscal conservatives due to the fact that they don't all vote that way. But generally they do and so are considered fiscally conservative.
I'll bet you can find fundamentalist Christians who support women's right to choose. But they are the exception to the rule.
Question: Can you find an instance where fundamentalist Christians have supported the Democrats on social issues? Just curious if it's ever happened once.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Phred]
#14600636 - 06/12/11 12:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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They are ridiculously right wing and so notoriously inaccurate
Didn't know but there is a web list full of sources on these challenges.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Phred
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Icelander]
#14600889 - 06/12/11 01:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
As I said I really don't care if some people support, for non religious reasons the things that religious nuts do. IMO they are a minority.
Things such as laws against murder, assault, theft, fraud?
Look, there are very, VERY few laws on the books of a modern Western country such as the US that are supported by religious people and only religious people. So few in fact that you are having a very hard time indeed coming up with any. I've already shown your understanding of the stem cell thing to be in error, so that really only leaves you with the abortion thing, and even there you have to admit that Roe v Wade is the law of the land and has been for nearly four decades now. So much the law of the land in fact that the only actual serious legislative challenge to it (assuming the proposed Ohio legislation ever even makes it out of committee) took 38 years to occur.
What seems to have you confused here is that the list of things most secular moralists believe should be illegal tallies pretty closely with the list of things most religious moralists believe should be illegal. I don't believe murder should be illegal because I am religious (again, I am as stone atheist as anyone you are ever likely to meet), but because I recognize murder is an immoral act. Same with theft. Same with assault. Same with fraud.
Your claim that Republican policies are based on "fundamental Christian" philosophy is incorrect. Republican policies are with few - if any - exceptions based on generic moral philosophy. The same is true, of course, of Democrat policies
Phred
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Icelander]
#14601076 - 06/12/11 01:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'd like to point out that most religious wingnuts are the kind of religious folk who just use religion as an excuse to be shitheads.
The root of the problem with Republicans isn't that so many of their supporters are religious, it's that so many of their supporters are shit eating cunt maggots who should just fucking kill themselves.
Also, Randianism/Objectivism is just another stupid religion which is not inherently any "better" than Christianity or Islam.
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Icelander
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Phred]
#14601432 - 06/12/11 02:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
As I said I really don't care if some people support, for non religious reasons the things that religious nuts do. IMO they are a minority.
Things such as laws against murder, assault, theft, fraud?
Look, there are very, VERY few laws on the books of a modern Western country such as the US that are supported by religious people and only religious people. So few in fact that you are having a very hard time indeed coming up with any. I've already shown your understanding of the stem cell thing to be in error, so that really only leaves you with the abortion thing, and even there you have to admit that Roe v Wade is the law of the land and has been for nearly four decades now. So much the law of the land in fact that the only actual serious legislative challenge to it (assuming the proposed Ohio legislation ever even makes it out of committee) took 38 years to occur.
What seems to have you confused here is that the list of things most secular moralists believe should be illegal tallies pretty closely with the list of things most religious moralists believe should be illegal. I don't believe murder should be illegal because I am religious (again, I am as stone atheist as anyone you are ever likely to meet), but because I recognize murder is an immoral act. Same with theft. Same with assault. Same with fraud.
Your claim that Republican policies are based on "fundamental Christian" philosophy is incorrect. Republican policies are with few - if any - exceptions based on generic moral philosophy. The same is true, of course, of Democrat policies
Phred
What, I never said that Republican policies are based on fundamental Christian philosophy. While some may be there could be no way they all were. I did point out that some Republican politicians do and that's why I don't support them.
And I already stated (please listen) more than once that there is no such thing as 100% christian influence on any policy and only christian influence because you and I both know that's impossible. That's not possible for any issue and any group that I know of. We've been over this several times. And again I stated there are challenges to Row vs Wade and many fundamentalist Christians support these challenges.
BTW what exactly is a secular moralist? I have morals, does that make me one? However I don't have the same morals as fundy christians on many issues.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Phred]
#14601495 - 06/12/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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And this is only one reason why I think Republicans are as retarded as Democrats. How can anyone support a Republican platform whole heartedly when they are willing to embrace these insane religious views?
Here's my original statement. To me whoever is an elected official of any party is a Representative of that party. Do I mean they represent all of the party line or every Republican position? NO never meant that at all. This guys views on this subject are based on his religious beliefs and we know this because he said so and he's speaking as an elected Republican who represents that party. So I won't ever say I'm a republican and support the republican party due to the fact that he also represents that party. Yet I'm in line with some Republican views. Same for the Dems. That's what I was saying and what I'm still saying. I don't give my allegiance completely to any party because they don't represent all my views. Yet it seems like people do that when the make statements like "the dems or liberals are all a bunch of idiots". As if that could be true.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Phred
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Icelander]
#14602210 - 06/12/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
What, I never said that Republican policies are based on fundamental Christian philosophy.
No? Then I ask again - to what does the word "it" refer in this exchange?
Quote:
Icelander - The republican party for years has found it expedient to embrace fundamentalist Christian philosophy.
love2shpongleIRL - I don't mind them using the rhetoric. The dominant religion in this country by far is christianity. What I do mind is if they put that rhetoric into action.
Icelander - Well they have put it into action in policies that effect all of us.
Once you have explained what the word "it" represents, please give us some examples of policies based on this "it" that Republicans have "put into action".
If you prefer to go instead with my revised version of this exchange:
Quote:
Icelander - politicians for years have found it expedient to embrace religious philosophy.
love2shpongleIRL - I don't mind them using religious rhetoric. What I do mind is if they put that rhetoric into action.
Icelander - Well they have put it into action in policies that effect all of us.
by all means do so, but again please explain what the word "it" represents, then give us some examples of policies based on this "it" that politicians have "put into action". By "put into action" I presume you mean passed into law? If not, what other meaning did you have in mind?
Phred
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Icelander
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Phred]
#14602395 - 06/12/11 06:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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The republican party for years has found it expedient to embrace fundamentalist Christian philosophy.
By this I meant they courted the fundamentalist vote. Not that the fundamentalists made all or any of the republican policy. Especially true in some past elections.
http://people-press.org/2005/08/30/religion-a-strength-and-weakness-for-both-parties/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1295/is_n10_v58/ai_15783405/
The higher percentage of Republicans who identified with a creationist view is described as evidence of the strong relationship between religion and politics the United States. Republicans also attend church weekly more than Democratic or independent voters. Non-Republican voters are twice as likely to hold a strictly scientific view of evolution than Republican voters.[107] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism
The creation "scientists" have, however, found powerful allies on the political Right--a partnership which benefits both. The political right needs concrete issues to organize around and foot soldiers to help carry out its campaigns -- which are provided in droves by the fundamentalists. And the GOP has been quick to attempt to tap this resource.
Creationists have been very active in state textbook committees and curricula boards, where they have attempted to pressure various states into dropping biology textbooks which feature evolutionary theory. In June 1996, three families in Cobb County, Georgia asked that the Cobb County Board of Education remove a chapter from a fourth grade science textbook. The offending chapter which discussed the age and formation of the universe. In late May, the Ohio House Education committee rejected (by a margin of just 12-8) a proposed bill that would require that "scientific arguments . . not in support" of evolutionary theory be taught whenever evolution is mentioned.
Most members of these state education boards are political appointees, and the fundamentalists have found willing allies in the state and local Republican Party. In March 1996, Alabama Governor Fob James announced that the creationist book Darwinism on Trial would be sent to all of the state's 900 science teachers, at a cost of almost $3,000. The book was, James declared, "an attempt to improve science education by encouraging healthy and constructive criticism of evolutionary theory." A few months later, Ohio State Representative Ron Hood introduced Bill 692, which mandated:
Whenever a theory of the origin of humans, other living things, or the universe that might commonly be referred to as 'evolution' is included in the instructional program provided by any school district or educational service center, both evidence and arguments supporting or consistent with the theory and evidence and arguments problematic for, inconsistent with, or not supporting the theory shall be included.
State Republican Parties in Texas, Oklahoma and Iowa have all adopted platform planks which advocate teaching creationism in schools.
In the late 1980's, bowing to creationist pressure, the state of Texas mandated that all biology textbooks carry a disclaimer stating that evolution is "only a theory" and "not established fact". This provision was withdrawn under pressure in 1990, but this past year, state officials in Alabama introduced a requirement for all biology textbooks to carry a disclaimer stating that "Any statement about life's origins should be considered as theory, not fact". The statement also notes, "There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not included in your textbook", and then goes on to list a number of standard creationist objections to evolution. The Alabama requirement is a transparent attempt to bring "balanced treatment" for creation "science" in through the back door, and several civil rights groups are already considering filing a court challenge.
More recently, however, even the national Republican leadership has demonstrated a willingness to kowtow to the creationists. In its "Contract for America", the GOP asserted, of its proposed "Family Reinforcement Act", that it "will strengthen the rights of parents to protect their children against education programs that undermine the values taught at home"--a code word for removing evolution, sex education, and other things which offend fundamentalist sensibilities. During the campaign, Presidential candidate Pat Buchanan appealed to fundamentalist support by attacking Darwin. When asked by a commentator if he favored the teaching of creationism in public schools, Buchanan replied, "You may believe you descended from monkeys--I don't believe it. I think you're created--I think you're a creature of God." When asked, "Do parents have the right, in your judgement, to insist, if they believe in creationism, that it also be taught in public schools?", Buchanan declared, "I think they have a right to insist that godless evolution not be taught to their children, or their children not be indoctrinated into it."
Several days later, fellow GOP candidate Alan Keyes was asked about creationism and its critics. "I think they ought to take a look at our country's founding document," Keyes replied. "It says, 'All men were created', and 'endowed by their creator with inalienable rights'. . . I don't think it is only a question of Judeo-Christian beliefs. It is of American beliefs."
Apparently, to Keyes, Christian religious tenets and American political programs are one and the same. To the initiated faithful, the creationists also make no secret of their political goals. As Henry Morris of the Institute for Creation Science admits, the ultimate goal of the creationists is to bring first science, then the rest of society under Biblical proscriptions: "A key purpose of the ICR is to bring the field of education--and then our whole world insofar as possible--back to the foundational truth of special creation and primeval history as revealed first in Genesis and further emphasized throughout the Bible". http://www.huecotanks.com/debunk/gop.htm
Difference #4 God and Government This issue is more commonly referred to as; "the separation of Church (Religions) and State (The Government)." Democrats seek to protect American governments from being controlled by religious organizations or churches. They encourage American governmental ethics within religious organizations http://www.interfaithalliance.org http://www.au.org Republicans seek to protect American religious organizations or churches from being controlled by government. They encourage religious ethics within government organizations. http://www.aclj.org http://cc.org http://thedifferencesbetweendemocratandrepublican.blogspot.com/
As to my second quote it appears that I may have spoken incorrectly although I'm not sure if this qualifies. http://blogs.forbes.com/erikkain/2011/04/08/tennessee-republicans-inherit-the-wind-pass-creationism-bill/
They may want to make abortion illegal but they have not been able to etc. The abortion issue and gay marriage etc seem to be favorite issues with fundamentalist Christians. It's quite likely that whoever tries to court the fundamentalist vote will promote some of their agendas.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/proposed-texas-law-would-bar-discrimination-agaisnt-creationists/
I still approve of your revised edition of the exchange. It really doesn't change the point I was trying to make.
Republican or Democrat anyone who tries to let their religious beliefs dictate their policies is someone I don't want in office. Why? Because they are basing policy on a belief for which there is no logical evidence. Unfortunately many people do. And I can't support a black and white stance on any party like many seem to do here. That also makes no logical sense imo.
Edited by Icelander (06/12/11 09:09 PM)
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Phred
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Icelander]
#14603513 - 06/12/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
By this I meant they courted the fundamentalist vote. Not that the fundamentalists made all or any of the republican policy. Especially true in some past elections.
All right then. If you say that is what you really meant, I won't argue, but you still haven't answered my questions. Remember, the exchange didn't end with that first assertion of yours, it continued as follows:
Quote:
Icelander - The republican party for years has found it expedient to embrace fundamentalist Christian philosophy.
love2shpongleIRL - I don't mind them using the rhetoric. The dominant religion in this country by far is christianity. What I do mind is if they put that rhetoric into action.
Icelander - Well they have put it into action in policies that effect all of us.
What I'm trying to get you tell us is-
- to what does "it" refer? - what specific policies was "it" put into action to achieve? - by "put into action" do you mean "legislated"? If not, then just what do you mean by that phrase?
Quote:
Republican or Democrat anyone who tries to let their religious beliefs dictate their policies is someone I don't want in office.
Even if those religious beliefs suggest policies indistinguishable from those suggested by secular beliefs? For example, policies making illegal murder, theft, fraud, assault, public nudity? Do you not agree that there is little difference indeed between what religious politicians want to enact and what non-religious ones do?
I repeat my request for an example of a policy enacted by religious American politicians that could not have been enacted by non-religious American politicians.
Phred
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Icelander
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Phred]
#14604647 - 06/13/11 05:06 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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repeat my request for an example of a policy enacted by religious American politicians that could not have been enacted by non-religious American politicians.
Never made that claim and addressed it at least two or three times. And I think I provided you with at least some of the evidence and examples you requested. I'd for gotten about creationism. 
Back to the OP. Here's a Representative of the republican party ( It could be any party but we don't seem to see the other major parties doing this much) saying that he is backing and forming his political beliefs due to what a god is telling him is right and wrong.
Even if those religious beliefs suggest policies indistinguishable from those suggested by secular beliefs? For example, policies making illegal murder, theft, fraud, assault, public nudity? Do you not agree that there is little difference indeed between what religious politicians want to enact and what non-religious ones do?
Like saying should I be ok with Hitler because much of his political legislation was the same as other leaders and other parties.
Can you link me to any politician or political party that has pushed or backed the creationism agenda that is not doing it due to a belief in a specific religion and God?
Personally I have a problem when any politician says anything they are supporting in the political arena is due to the commandments of their god or religion. Even if it's something I approve of. Sooner or later it seems they will be supporting a religious position I do not approve of and you cannot debate religious belief with logic. And if his religious constituents form a major voting block I could be at risk for creationism being legislated into my children's school curriculum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (06/13/11 05:25 AM)
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blujay
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: Phred]
#14604991 - 06/13/11 08:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
The polices on stem cell research by Bush.
Ah. So you are unaware there was zero federal funding for embryonic stem cell research before Bush signed it into law? You still haven't discovered that it was Bush who first authorized taxpayer dollars to be directed to this research? Why am I unsurprised?
As an aside, you do know that embryonic stem cell research in the US is legal, right?
Phred
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Stem cell research never needed or gave a flying fuck about Federal funding. It's important enough the scientific community would be bound to support it as a major field of advancement and private interest. He came in and told them they couldn't make new cultures, and since cloning cells quickly lose biodiversity and become effectively useless, it stifled out research and put us at least half a decade behind the competition. It was never made illegal, but it was made practically pointless, as until Obama reversed this policy there had been no fully viable cultures left for several years.
So when you get a 3rd degree burn over 1/4 of your body and get to spend months recovering and the rest of your life looking like a disfigured freak, remember your convictions prevented the developments that could have had the treatment ready that would have healed you in a matter of days with new, fresh, smooth, pink skin. That's just one example, too.
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blujay
pass it b*ch!



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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: blujay]
#14605005 - 06/13/11 08:34 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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This party register system bullshit has effectively broken democracy and strong-armed out lots of candidates that would have probably had much public support but weren't on TEAM BLUE OR TEAM RED.
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Crystal G



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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: blujay]
#14613807 - 06/14/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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You know what's really funny about all this? Is that it's always the neoconservative Republican types who are the biggest sexual retards behind closed doors. I'm not even exaggerating; almost every single person who has ever wanted to be hardcore dominated (I'm talking being pissed on, trampled on, forced-bi strap on) was either a corporate lawyer, businessman, or worked in law enforcement. They are usually Republicans, profoundly religious, and are seen as "active leaders" in the community.
I tell you... sometimes it feels like sweet, sweet justice giving it to them hard.
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Phred
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: blujay]
#14613915 - 06/14/11 07:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Ah, the irony, as we shall soon see.
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Stem cell research never needed or gave a flying fuck about Federal funding.
If this is true, why does anyone give a shit about what restrictions the US government puts on the kind of stem cell research it allows taxpayer dollars to be spent on? This does not compute.
Quote:
It's important enough the scientific community would be bound to support it as a major field of advancement and private interest. He came in and told them they couldn't make new cultures...
No he didn't. The legislation merely stipulated that taxpayer dollars would go to only research being done on a limited number of stem cell lines already extant at a given point in time. Any research done on lines newer than that would have to get by with only private dollars.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the legislation criminalized research on embryonic stem cells. It didn't. You remain every bit as free to do your research on them as anyone in any other country in the world. Seriously. I am not making this up. This is easily checkable. All the legislation did was place restrictions on taxpayer-funded stem cell research, not stem cell research per se.
Quote:
It was never made illegal, but it was made practically pointless...
Ah! So you do know that the legislation didn't criminalize the research. So what the fuck is the point of your post? How was US stem cell research made completely pointless? If - as you claim - stem cell research never needed or gave a flying fuck about federal funding, then what does it matter that the federal funding is less than universal? Your claims are in complete contradiction to each other.
Quote:
...as until Obama reversed this policy there had been no fully viable cultures left for several years.
I'm gonna need a link to a credible source on this.
Phred
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Psychedeli
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Re: Herman Cain: Homosexuality is a sin and a choice [Re: skatealex2]
#14625013 - 06/16/11 08:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
skatealex2 said: Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain told Hotsheet Wednesday that homosexuality is a sin and a choice.
"I believe homosexuality is a sin because I'm a Bible-believing Christian, I believe it's a sin," he said. "But I know that some people make that choice. That's their choice."
Cain was asked: "So you believe it's a choice?"
"I believe it is a choice," he responded.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20070225-503544.html
So he follows texts that over 3,000 years old, judges people as sinners, believes jesus christ is his savior and he is campaigning to be president of the United States in 2012. 
Yup, Nothing has changed haha.
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