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bobchillaxed
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Hate is not the opposite of Love.
#14597844 - 06/11/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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this is from a book i've read by Osho
And who can be love? Certainly, if you are not aware of who you are, you cannot be love. You will be fear. Fear is just the opposite of love. Remember, hate is not the opposite of love as people think; hate is love standing upside down, it is not the opposite of love. The real opposite of love is fear. In love one expands, in fear one shrinks. In Fear one becomes closed, in love one opens. In fear one doubts, in love one trusts. In fear one is left lonely, in love one disappears; hence there is no question of loneliness at all. When one is not, how can one be lonely? Then these trees and the birds and the clouds and the sun and the stars are still within you. Love is when you have known your inner sky.
And Tallis, this is the right moment, the right age, to enter into the world of love. This is the time when parents, the society, the state and the church go on poisoning children and making them afraid. This is the time when fear is created by the exploiters. This is the time when society reduces small children to slaves; and one can be reduced to a slave only if great fear is created.
Tallis, meditate, dance, sing, and go deeper and deeper into yourself. Listen to the birds more attentively. Look at the flowers with awe, wonder. Don't become knowledgeable, don't go on labeling things. That's what knowledgeability is - the great art of labeling everything, categorizing everything. From this age, start playing guitar or learn to play the flute. Meet people, mix with people, with as many people as possible, because each person expresses a different facet of God. Learn from people. Don't be afraid, this existence is not your enemy. This existence mothers you, this existence is ready to support you in every possible way. Trust, and you will start feeling a new upsurge of energy in you; that energy is love. That energy wants to bless the whole existence, because in that energy one feels blessed. And when you feel blessed what else can you do except bless the whole existence?
Fear is utterly impotent. It has never created anything. It cannot create; it is not. But it can destroy your whole life, it can surround you like a dark, dark cloud, it can exploit all your energies. It will not allow you to move into any deep experience of beauty, poetry, love, joy, celebration, meditation. No, it will keep you just on the surface because it can exist only on the surface. It is a ripple on the surface.
personal experience of hate not being the opposite of love: when i am in an extremely good mood..content and knowing of "what IS".. somehow i always attract hateful people. however, i take it as a humorous thing..of course, because i am in such a great high. personally, it seems it is there for me to accept as entertainment. just think of this next time you see a hateful person. remember the difference between hate and fear.. if you can add on with any experiences or discussion, please do so. thanks!
What do you think? Do you still think hate is the opposite of love?
Edited by bobchillaxed (06/11/11 08:50 PM)
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Rhizoid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed] 1
#14597913 - 06/11/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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This sounds like a boilerplate sermon designed to lower the spiritual defences of people who have too much money on their hands. Fear can be very healthy, and fear of financial predators like the late Osho is extremely healthy.
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Icelander
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14597943 - 06/11/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hate is not the opposite of Love.
Agree.
However fear has helped mankind make it here. Fear is important for survival. Without fear one does not run from the tiger on the hunt or jump away from the speeding auto.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14598019 - 06/11/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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If Osho/Rajneesh didn't believe in fear then why were there dozens of AK-47s at his 'ashram in Antelope, OR?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Icelander]
#14598021 - 06/11/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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One should never let a tiger drive a car.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Icelander]
#14598037 - 06/11/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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one cannot exist without the other.. both sides have to be acknowledged and respected. ((duality..yin and yang..))
it's not about 'believing'. one should never 'believe', in my opinion.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Cups
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: If Osho/Rajneesh didn't believe in fear then why were there dozens of AK-47s at his 'ashram in Antelope, OR?
Cuz of the antelope, duh. 
Gotta eat man.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Rahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599227 - 06/12/11 02:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hate and fear are the same thing!!
Hate is the opposite of love. Same as fear.
Osho made a living off of the basic semantic principal of love and fear (hate). Once you start phrasing things in terms of hate, rationality might creep in, so we keep things simple. Nobody wants to be guilty of being fearful NO FEAR!! (so we admit to hate)... and everyone loves to hate (but we deny when it comes late). It's invigorating, unless it strains. Healthy even. If people didn't hate things... especially by being annoyed by things, nothing would get done. People hate when certain things don't get done. That's why it's better when things get done. Otherwise, things suck... Sounds dumb, but it makes the world go around.
People destroy, and it creates. Without destruction, the world would not be like it is today. More to the point, Osho's legacy is in the middle of being forgotten in case it hasn't been noticed. Don't be ashamed he said... but there's plenty of room for shame for the shameful... they should have known better! Live and learn?
Osho wanted to be a guru. Fault?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599306 - 06/12/11 02:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: Fear is just the opposite of love. Remember, hate is not the opposite of love as people think; hate is love standing upside down, it is not the opposite of love. The real opposite of love is fear.
hate - Thesaurus.com
Quote:
Antonyms: liking, love, loving
fear - Thesaurus.com
Quote:
Antonyms: bravery
You are incorrect on both counts..hate is the opposite of love, and the opposite of fear is not love, it is bravery.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14599312 - 06/12/11 02:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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you're focusing way too much on Osho.. like i said, in my own experience, i have experienced hate is not the opposite of love.
i always attract hate when i'm high but it is not fearful hate.. the people are not afraid to express themselves, which is a good thing. it is not the opposite of love because there is still a connection being made. i think the definition for 'hate' has been warped and perceived differently.
it is not the same as fear, whereas a person in fear does not want to make a connection of any type.
here is another experience/example of my own: i have friends, and my friends have other friends. some of my friends get along with my other friends, and some of my friends hate my other friends. (it's important your perception on 'hate'). to me, this is not a bad thing at all. there is still a connection between them, and they both know it. there was just never chemistry between them, and it ends there.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599321 - 06/12/11 02:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Antonyms: liking, love, loving
fear - Thesaurus.com
Quote:
Antonyms: bravery
You are incorrect on both counts..hate is the opposite of love, and the opposite of fear is not love, it is bravery.
lol. come on, are you serious? that's like going to the beach, picking up one grain of sand and declaring that to be the ultimate truth.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599322 - 06/12/11 02:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: that's like going to the beach, picking up one grain of sand and declaring that to be the ultimate truth.
I have no clue WTF you're talking about.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599333 - 06/12/11 03:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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just because a thesaurus says so, does not make it to be true. there is a lot of discussion about 'opposites' and many times they aren't always right..
North South Dark Light Good Evil Left Right Up Down Heaven Hell Poor Rich Smart Dumb White Black Everything Nothing Antidote, Poison High, Low
love/fear
further explaining, I do think hate can possibly potentially lead to fear.. but for one living in love, can also live in hate because hate is just love standing upside down.(which is a great way to put it) it's kind of similar to saying hate is a gateway emotion.. (like marijuana is a gateway drug) .. not true.
what if i told you you're living in fear of living in hate? when you could be living in love of living in hate.
why don't you love to hate? (lol)
i'm serious. give it a thought.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Rahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599339 - 06/12/11 03:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not fixating on Osho (you quoted), but if he said what was said, he was wrong! Hate and fear -are- the same thing (I am disagreeing with your basic gist) Hate is a means of expressing fear but perhaps without the social stigma attached. And people soak it up because they're mostly fear gluttons. Wrap it in the flag of a 'legitimate' fear and we can all be afraid and enjoy it! Fun stuff.
That's not to say there is something 'wrong' with being hateful or being fearful. Humans are hateful, fearful creatures.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599348 - 06/12/11 03:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: just because a thesaurus says so, does not make it to be true.
So you're basically defining the terms 'hate', 'love', and 'fear' in such a way that is not in accordance with current dictionaries/thesauruses?
Why do so many people in this forum do this? 
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: there is a lot of discussion about 'opposites' and many times they aren't always right..
What do you mean "many times they aren't always right"? Mind substantiating this statement?
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: North South Dark Light Good Evil Left Right Up Down Heaven Hell Poor Rich Smart Dumb White Black Everything Nothing Antidote, Poison High, Low
A nice list of opposites. 
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: Love/Fear Love/Indifference
Those are not opposites..just because you say they are does it make it true.
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: Love/Hate
Opposites. 
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: I do think hate can lead to fear..
Why not?
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: but for one living in love, can also live in hate because hate is just love standing upside down.(which is a great way to put it)
what if i told you you're living in fear of living in hate? when you could be living in love of living in hate.
why don't you love to hate? (lol)
i'm serious.
You just seem to be rambling on about a bunch of nonsensical bullcrap to me..none of this in the least substantiates your claim that hate is not the opposite of love, and that fear is the opposite of love.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14599350 - 06/12/11 03:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: I'm not fixating on Osho (you quoted), but if he said what was said, he was wrong! Hate and fear -are- the same thing (I am disagreeing with your basic gist) Hate is a means of expressing fear but perhaps without the social stigma attached. And people soak it up because they're mostly fear gluttons. Wrap it in the flag of a 'legitimate' fear and we can all be afraid and enjoy it! Fun stuff.
That's not to say there is something 'wrong' with being hateful or being fearful. Humans are hateful, fearful creatures.
fear and hate are not the 'same' thing. they are two quite 'different' things. the way you describe the part i underlined shows your perspective very clearly to me.. you're looking at 'hate' from a different perspective..a perspective that seems like a programmed one to a degree from society. no offense, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599361 - 06/12/11 03:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: just because a thesaurus says so, does not make it to be true.
So you're basically defining the terms 'hate', 'love', and 'fear' in such a way that is not in accordance with current dictionaries/thesauruses?
Why do so many people in this forum do this? 
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: there is a lot of discussion about 'opposites' and many times they aren't always right..
What do you mean "many times they aren't always right"? Mind substantiating this statement?
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: North South Dark Light Good Evil Left Right Up Down Heaven Hell Poor Rich Smart Dumb White Black Everything Nothing Antidote, Poison High, Low
A nice list of opposites. 
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: Love/Fear Love/Indifference
Those are not opposites..just because you say they are does it make it true.
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: Love/Hate
Opposites. 
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: I do think hate can lead to fear..
Why not?
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: but for one living in love, can also live in hate because hate is just love standing upside down.(which is a great way to put it)
what if i told you you're living in fear of living in hate? when you could be living in love of living in hate.
why don't you love to hate? (lol)
i'm serious.
You just seem to be rambling on about a bunch of nonsensical bullcrap to me..none of this in the least substantiates your claim that hate is not the opposite of love, and that fear is the opposite of love.
dude fuck you to that last part. your obviously not listening, you are reading but it's not going through.
i showed those three examples of love and three different opposites to show that there are many different things people will call something the opposite of. i've said a lot, and write more than you read.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599373 - 06/12/11 03:21 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: you're looking at 'hate' from a different perspective..a perspective that seems like a programmed one to a degree from society.
And you're saying that your perspective hasn't been programmed to a degree by society?
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: dude fuck you to that last part.

Quote:
bobchillaxed said: your obviously not listening, you are reading but it's not going through.

Quote:
bobchillaxed said: i showed those three examples of love and three different opposites to show that there are many different things people will call something the opposite of.
Then why didn't you explain why you provided those examples? You think unclear ramblings are really going to allow people to understand WTF you're trying to express?
All you did was provide a list of opposites, followed by two examples of things that aren't opposites, followed by one example of an opposite, you didn't explain how this relates to your claims in the OP.
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: i've said a lot, and write more than you read.
Your schizophrenic ramblings do not impress me in the least..there is no way you can know if you write more than I read, because you don't know me. If you truly do write more than I read, however, and all your writings are like this, that is nothing to be proud of..you should know how to intelligibly express yourself if you actually write more than I read, assuming of course that you're not suffering from either some type of mental illness or learning disorder.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (06/12/11 03:30 AM)
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599375 - 06/12/11 03:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: i showed those three examples of love and three different opposites to show that there are many different things people will call something the opposite of.
Then why didn't you explain that that was why you provided those examples? You think unclear ramblings are really going to allow people to understand WTF you're trying to express?
I DID. "there is a lot of discussion about 'opposites' and many times they aren't always right.."
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Posts: 9,230
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599377 - 06/12/11 03:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, we're not going to agree to disagree, we're going to argue about it.
Hate is a particular form of fear. Hate is a sub-category of fear. If you disagree, provide an example. Let's examine.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599378 - 06/12/11 03:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah, then you provided a list of opposites, followed by two examples of things that aren't opposites, followed by one example of things that are opposites. You should've clearly stated which ones you believed weren't right, and what your point of mentioning all this is.
So what if some people incorrectly believe something to be the opposite of something else? WTF is your point? How does this at all back up your assertion that hate is not the opposite of love, and that fear is the opposite of love?
See why I feel like you're just rambling?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599380 - 06/12/11 03:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: "there is a lot of discussion about 'opposites' and many times they aren't always right.."
Not to mention this sentence doesn't even make any sense ("many times they aren't always right"?), but yeah, I let that slide.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14599385 - 06/12/11 03:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Hate is a particular form of fear. Hate is a sub-category of fear. If you disagree, provide an example. Let's examine.
I disagree..why don't you back up your claim instead of asking him to disprove yours? Burden of proof is on you.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14599387 - 06/12/11 03:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: No, we're not going to agree to disagree, we're going to argue about it.
Hate is a particular form of fear. Hate is a sub-category of fear. If you disagree, provide an example. Let's examine.
ok.
well i've mentioned before, but one can live in love but still be hateful. for example.. "living in love" by seeing divine in everything and all.. okay let's say during this 'high' you see someone being hateful (let's have an example to be on the internet).. conversation goes like this:
"Noob117: Noob410, you must be gay because yo momma played your father" "Noob410: You must be gay because you're the one viewing my profile! GAY!" ..and on and on and on.. etc etc
i do think one can 'overdo' the hate and get too carried away.. thus leading to a fear-based mindset.. and it's important not to give it too much energy. but i did not see any fear in that example.. but it was 'hate' towards each other. they weren't giving too much energy to it, however, because their comebacks were lame and humorous. (which is a reason why i see 'hate'.. done correctly.. as entertainment.)
think about it, please.
thanks for reply, man
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599389 - 06/12/11 03:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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^ this is also to give a different perspective than how most people view 'hate'.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599399 - 06/12/11 03:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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People just start to hate the things what they fear if they don't find another solution of solving their inner discrepancy. Fear is aversion. Love is 'coming together'. The primal reflex for aversion is to run away. If one can't run away (or can't fight the cause of the fear), one's fear will turn into hate. Fear turning into hate can be avoided by exploring the reasons for that aversion ('coming together'), then changing either the source or oneself, or successful avoidance altogether (while this is no final solution).
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Rahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599409 - 06/12/11 03:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Any particular hate is an expression of anxieity, which is rooted in fear.
I hate stupidity. It's scary. Your turn.
Not that burden of proof is on me, I'm the one responding to the statement. It should be backed up.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14599412 - 06/12/11 03:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: People just start to hate the things what they fear if they don't find another solution of solving their inner discrepancy. Fear is aversion. Love is 'coming together'. The primal reflex for aversion is to run away. If one can't run away (or can't fight the cause of the fear), one's fear will turn into hate. Fear turning into hate can be avoided by exploring the reasons for that aversion ('coming together'), then changing either the source or oneself, or successful avoidance altogether (while this is no final solution).
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14599418 - 06/12/11 03:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Any particular hate is an expression of anxieity...
Mind substantiating this claim? I don't think it's necessarily true.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599430 - 06/12/11 04:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well yea, comedy is good, but there is the thought that by making fun of fear it's not fear... That's wrong. Humor is awesome, but tension is still tension. If there is no actual hate, there is no fear.
Comedy can represent various mindsets. There are good, bad, better and worse ways of handling situations, but to pretend that any particular response isn't fearful because it was 'handled well' can be just another cover for fear. That's why hate is a form of fear, and not the other way around. Fear is common. Hate is again, a 'sub-category' of fear. Hate is one of many ways of handling our 'tensions'.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14599442 - 06/12/11 04:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Comedy can represent various mindsets. There are good, bad, better and worse ways of handling situations, but to pretend that any particular response isn't fearful because it was 'handled well' can be just another cover for fear. That's why hate is a form of fear, and not the other way around.
You've only explained how one example of hatred is a form of fear, you haven't established that all forms of hatred are necessarily forms of fear.
Quote:
Rahz said: Hate is one of many ways of handling our 'tensions'.
I don't think this is necessarily true..hatred is an extreme form of dislike, I don't think disliking is a way to handle our tensions. We are born with certain preferences, I don't think that preferences are a form of tension..hatred, or extreme dislike, is just a reaction to not having our preferences met. It may cause tension, but isn't rooted in tension..it's rooted in preferences, which, again, aren't a form of tension.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14599443 - 06/12/11 04:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Well yea, comedy is good, but there is the thought that by making fun of fear it's not fear... That's wrong. Humor is awesome, but tension is still tension. If there is no actual hate, there is no fear.
Comedy can represent various mindsets. There are good, bad, better and worse ways of handling situations, but to pretend that any particular response isn't fearful because it was 'handled well' can be just another cover for fear. That's why hate is a form of fear, and not the other way around. Fear is common. Hate is again, a 'sub-category' of fear. Hate is one of many ways of handling our 'tensions'.
the example wasn't completely revolved around comedy.. 
it's all perspective. it's all how you look at it. look at the world in love, you will see some hate. i guarantee you. if you look at the world in fear, you will also see hate..but a completely different form of hate.. it's hard to explain, and truly is something that needs to be experienced first. either way, it is something that is manifested (or attracted to you) no matter how positive you are. now why is that? it is because hate is not the opposite of love. it is love standing upside down. fear is the true opposite of love.
i speak from experience. not trying to prove anything.
i don't know how to be more clear than i have been so far..
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599453 - 06/12/11 04:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Well yea, comedy is good, but there is the thought that by making fun of fear it's not fear... That's wrong. Humor is awesome, but tension is still tension. If there is no actual hate, there is no fear.
Comedy can represent various mindsets. There are good, bad, better and worse ways of handling situations, but to pretend that any particular response isn't fearful because it was 'handled well' can be just another cover for fear. That's why hate is a form of fear, and not the other way around. Fear is common. Hate is again, a 'sub-category' of fear. Hate is one of many ways of handling our 'tensions'.
the example wasn't completely revolved around comedy.. 
it's all perspective. it's all how you look at it. look at the world in love, you will see some hate. i guarantee you. if you look at the world in fear, you will also see hate..but a completely different form of hate.. it's hard to explain, and truly is something that needs to be experienced first. either way, it is something that is manifested (or attracted to you) no matter how positive you are. now why is that? it is because hate is not the opposite of love.
You made giant leaps of logic here, buddy..how on Earth does it follow that, since hate is manifested (or attracted to you) if you "look at the world in fear", this means that hate is not the opposite of love?
What does "looking at the world in love"/"looking at the world in fear" have to do with whether or not love is the opposite of hate? Love is the opposite of hate, regardless of whether or not people "look at the world in love" or "look at the world in fear"..how people look at the world doesn't affect the fact that love is the opposite of hate in any way.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599504 - 06/12/11 05:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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poid, if you don't understand or even acknowledge the big picture but would rather spend your time deciphering individual sections, i don't know what to tell you. you choose to grab at whatever you can that i say and use it against me. i really would wish you left this thread, as this thread seems to be completely going against your thinking, but that does not mean you should be this obnoxious against my point and create bigger distractions than necessary throughout this thread. your mind is fixed, and after all you seem to have no interest in a perspective that is not your own. you should grow up, as i do not like having to explain each and every sentence to you. i'm done reading or responding to your posts, yet i expected better from a guy on a shroomery forum. i'll add that i am speaking from experience, and not trying to prove anything but still you are trying to disprove me. i have read your ratings, and am sure i am not the only one to think this. please stop.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599511 - 06/12/11 05:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: i'll add that i am speaking from experience, and not trying to prove anything but still you are trying to disprove me.
Then why are you posting this in this forum? Did you not read the rules/forum description?
This debate-oriented forum is for the discussion of philosophical ideas that can be backed up with some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning. Topics may include epistemology, ethics, metaphysics/ontology, the psychology of mind and the sociological study of cultural and individual behavior.
If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.
If you don't want to debate here, then just GTFO.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599512 - 06/12/11 05:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: poid, if you don't understand or even acknowledge the big picture but would rather spend your time deciphering individual sections, i don't know what to tell you. you choose to grab at whatever you can that i say and use it against me. i really would wish you left this thread, as this thread seems to be completely going against your thinking, but that does not mean you should be this obnoxious against my point and create bigger distractions than necessary throughout this thread. your mind is fixed, and after all you seem to have no interest in a perspective that is not your own. you should grow up, as i do not like having to explain each and every sentence to you. i'm done reading or responding to your posts, yet i expected better from a guy on a shroomery forum. i'll add that i am speaking from experience, and not trying to prove anything but still you are trying to disprove me. i have read your ratings, and am sure i am not the only one to think this. please stop.
Wrong forum little dude.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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bobchillaxed
Stranger


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599520 - 06/12/11 05:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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i have said everything i have to say to show hate is not the opposite of love. you request unnecessary additional explaining on top of it all.
i ask you re read it, and focus more on the big picture of it all
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
Edited by bobchillaxed (06/12/11 05:46 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599526 - 06/12/11 05:21 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not going to accept your own personal definitions of the terms 'love', 'hate', and 'fear'..I've already provided evidence from a current thesaurus which shows that love is in fact the opposite of hate, and that fear is not the opposite of love.
This stupid thread should've been over after my first post.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599536 - 06/12/11 05:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: I'm not going to accept your own personal definitions of the terms 'love', 'hate', and 'fear'..I've already provided evidence from a current thesaurus which shows that love is in fact the opposite of hate, and that fear is not the opposite of love.
This stupid thread should've been over after my first post. 
i have not made this clear, and should have. but i am not making 'personal definitions'. i was not talking about the dictionary. i was talking about the thesaurus or an "opposite dictionary"
and yes your post from the very beginning and up to this one show how much you welcome new members.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
Edited by bobchillaxed (06/12/11 05:26 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599547 - 06/12/11 05:30 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: and yes your post from the very beginning and up to this one show how much you welcome new members.
So you're saying that disagreeing with new members is inappropriate? The way I treat members is not influenced by their registration date or post count, it's influenced by the content of their posts.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599575 - 06/12/11 05:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are incorrect on both counts..hate is the opposite of love, and the opposite of fear is not love, it is bravery.
The dictionary is incorrect. I suspect the dictionary was written by humans with death anxiety.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599578 - 06/12/11 05:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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and yes your post from the very beginning and up to this one show how much you welcome new members.
And when can we stop kissing your ass?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Icelander]
#14599581 - 06/12/11 05:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: and yes your post from the very beginning and up to this one show how much you welcome new members.
And when can we stop kissing your ass?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
Stranger


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599582 - 06/12/11 05:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: So you're saying that disagreeing with new members is inappropriate?
no not at all, was just commenting back on you calling my thread stupid and that it should have been over a while ago along with other comments from the beginning.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599588 - 06/12/11 05:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's a personal opinion and within forum guidelines. You can dispute it or ignore it. This forum is hard on sensitive types and many leave or put lots of people on ignore. And that's their right.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599593 - 06/12/11 06:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said:
Quote:
Poid said: So you're saying that disagreeing with new members is inappropriate?
no not at all, was just commenting back on you calling my thread stupid and that it should have been over a while ago along with other comments from the beginning.
You mean like this one:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: i've said a lot, and write more than you read.
Your schizophrenic ramblings do not impress me in the least..there is no way you can know if you write more than I read, because you don't know me. If you truly do write more than I read, however, and all your writings are like this, that is nothing to be proud of..you should know how to intelligibly express yourself if you actually write more than I read, assuming of course that you're not suffering from either some type of mental illness or learning disorder.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
Stranger


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Icelander]
#14599601 - 06/12/11 06:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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thanks a bunch 
poid, i'm actually starting to see your sense of humor shine through.. when i said i write more than you read i guess i meant more of like you're standing at a different angle where you don't see a part of what i am writing..
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599608 - 06/12/11 06:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: poid, i'm actually starting to see your sense of humor shine through..
It's about damn time. 
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: when i said i write more than you read i guess i meant more of like you're standing at a different angle where you don't see a part of what i am writing..
Oh, I see what you meant now..I would enjoy your posts more if they weren't so vague/symbolic, you should just fully & clearly express your ideas in the first place and not expect people to understand your vague insinuations.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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bobchillaxed
Stranger


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14599637 - 06/12/11 06:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: poid, i'm actually starting to see your sense of humor shine through..
It's about damn time. 
Quote:
bobchillaxed said: when i said i write more than you read i guess i meant more of like you're standing at a different angle where you don't see a part of what i am writing..
Oh, I see what you meant now..I would enjoy your posts more if they weren't so vague/symbolic, you should just fully & clearly express your ideas in the first place and not expect people to understand your vague insinuations. 
yeah i get that often. it sucks because i'm well gifted in "reading" things, to say the least, yet the worst at explaining. and what i "read" or "sense", if you get me, is very clear and out-of-the-box thinking to me but i do not know how to explain it.. it is a little hard to explain the invisible things people don't sense at all.. it seems. (or at least things that are never talked about) yet i understand them perfectly.
what are the odds. you'd never believe me because i suck at explaining shit LOL
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599641 - 06/12/11 06:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: what are the odds. you'd never believe me because i suck at explaining shit LOL:) 
Work on it.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14599659 - 06/12/11 06:37 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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you are right hate and love are too complex and variegated to be opposites, however if you deconstruct all those complex things to basic attraction and avoidance the polarity is clear.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: redgreenvines]
#14601027 - 06/12/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Icelander]
#14601080 - 06/12/11 01:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think that the strongest kind ( I do believe there are categories)of fear:
is fear of the unknown
One of my favorite authors, H.P. Lovecraft ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft ) made this central to allot of his terrifying short stories.
When I think about the most terrifying occurrences in my life, they seem to be rooted deeply in this.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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bobchillaxed
Stranger


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: SirTripAlot]
#14602026 - 06/12/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I think that the strongest kind ( I do believe there are categories)of fear:
is fear of the unknown
One of my favorite authors, H.P. Lovecraft ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft ) made this central to allot of his terrifying short stories.
When I think about the most terrifying occurrences in my life, they seem to be rooted deeply in this.
agreed. thanks for mentioning that:) i would also like to add
the fear of nothingness,emptiness
hence fear of having no love- etc.
http://www.gurusfeet.com/blog/fear-emptiness http://www.oshoquotes.net/2009/12/osho-quotes-on-emptiness-nothingness-emptiness-shunyata/
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14602903 - 06/12/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I will agree that hate is a complex subject, so I will withdraw my comment on hate/fear being synonymous.
Edit: In saying that, I will say that it's worth some more thought. I am undecided. I am having trouble comming up with a scenario in which the hate was in response to something other than fear. Can anyone help me out?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (06/12/11 08:25 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14603023 - 06/12/11 08:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I can't either. I think I agree with you. In fact I know I do.
Edited by Icelander (06/12/11 08:49 PM)
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Cups
technically "here"


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
#14603523 - 06/12/11 10:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
LOL I love that. It's one of the few philosophical type things in donnie darko where the writer/director and I fundamentally disagree.
Except I would simply have Fear on the one side and No Fear on the other instead of love.
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Cups
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14603527 - 06/12/11 10:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Edit: In saying that, I will say that it's worth some more thought. I am undecided. I am having trouble coming up with a scenario in which the hate was in response to something other than fear. Can anyone help me out?
I find it impossible to come up with any emotional response that isn't related to fear or the absence of it.
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deCypher



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Cups]
#14603571 - 06/12/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cups said: Except I would simply have Fear on the one side and No Fear on the other instead of love.
Is having no fear whatsoever preferable though? Seems to me that being afraid of pain and death keeps me away from situations where I might experience these, thereby boosting my overall happiness.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Cups
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
#14603608 - 06/12/11 11:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah but if you aren't scared of them then even if they happen is wouldn't diminish the happiness. Kind of like how the breath I just took didn't change my mood. Later I plan on brushing my teeth with a similar lack of effect.
That's very simplistic but true IMO.
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deCypher



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Cups]
#14603619 - 06/12/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cups said: Yeah but if you aren't scared of them then even if they happen is wouldn't diminish the happiness.
Only because if I weren't scared of them then these things would most likely be innately positive, no? Intrinsically negative experiences tend to automatically decrease my happiness, and although you may be able to warp your perception of pain into a masochistic sort of pleasure it seems as though this would not be beneficial to you in the long run.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Cups
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
#14603663 - 06/12/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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But you raise a good point. Think of pain from the perspective of a tortured prisoner and then from the perspective of a world class weightlifter.
The tortured guy views it negatively and screams and hollers and probably gets scarred for life.
The weightlifter on the other hand looks forward to the pain, feels the burn...literally seeks it out.
Same receptors, same chemicals, etc. Different perspective.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14604192 - 06/13/11 01:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: No, we're not going to agree to disagree, we're going to argue about it.
Hate is a particular form of fear. Hate is a sub-category of fear. If you disagree, provide an example. Let's examine.
Hate is what we fear about ourselves taken out on others.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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deCypher



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: LunarEclipse]
#14604310 - 06/13/11 02:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:

But you raise a good point. Think of pain from the perspective of a tortured prisoner and then from the perspective of a world class weightlifter.
The tortured guy views it negatively and screams and hollers and probably gets scarred for life.
The weightlifter on the other hand looks forward to the pain, feels the burn...literally seeks it out.
Same receptors, same chemicals, etc. Different perspective.
Given that mental experience seems inextricably correlated to brain activity I would think that a different perspective would entail different patterns of chemical reactions, no? 
On the whole I agree that perspective can make bad situations livable, but I still see fear as useful insofaras it prevents me from experiencing certain types of suffering.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
#14604360 - 06/13/11 02:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Because simply not liking something isn't enough to prevent one from doing that thing. Furthermore, if you wouldn't feel fear about something, I can only assume that doing it wouldn't be that bad for you either.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Cups
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
#14605037 - 06/13/11 08:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Given that mental experience seems inextricably correlated to brain activity I would think that a different perspective would entail different patterns of chemical reactions, no? 
Yeah I thought you might say that. I don't know...not even sure neuro-scientists know how perspective works. The always impressive "hard problem of consciousness".
I saw a brain study on LSD usage and they said the scans always looked the same even though each person was having a completely different trip. A cool research thing would be to scan guys feeling the burn and pushing it til their muscles quit on them....and some guy feeling unwanted intense pain.
See if its the same image just interpreted different ways by the subject.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14606233 - 06/13/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Edit: In saying that, I will say that it's worth some more thought. I am undecided. I am having trouble comming up with a scenario in which the hate was in response to something other than fear. Can anyone help me out?
Hate is a response to not having our preferences met..one example of hate having nothing to do with fear is hating the smell of shit. 
Another example would be hating a particular TV show, or even hating TV altogether.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14606479 - 06/13/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I guess if hate means dislike then yes.
" I hate the rain." Do I really, or is that an exaggerated expression?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Icelander]
#14606546 - 06/13/11 02:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Well I guess if hate means dislike then yes.
Hate is extreme dislike.
Quote:
Icelander said: " I hate the rain." Do I really, or is that an exaggerated expression?
It depends on if you truly hate the rain, or if you're just exaggerating. 
It could be that you're exaggerating out of anger, and that, instead of actually hating the rain, you merely dislike the discomfort it's causing you at the moment. It could also be that you truly hate rain, in all its forms, whether it's causing you discomfort at the moment or not.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14606857 - 06/13/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Actually I'm afraid of the rain.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14607512 - 06/13/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
one example of hate having nothing to do with fear is hating the smell of shit.
Shit can carry pathogens, so hate is a possible reaction to the fear of crap. If crap was generally healthy, people would generally love the smell of crap.
Quote:
Another example would be hating a particular TV show, or even hating TV altogether.
If someone thinks a particular activity is a complete waste of time, or instills un-useful viewpoints, hate is a possible reaction to the fear of wasting ones time or culturing views that are wasteful or even detrimental.
Try again.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14611232 - 06/14/11 10:21 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bobchillaxed said: In love one expands, in fear one shrinks. In Fear one becomes closed, in love one opens. In fear one doubts, in love one trusts. In fear one is left lonely, in love one disappears; hence there is no question of loneliness at all
hate is not the same as fear; you can hate without shrinking. you can hate without becoming closed. you can hate without being lonely.
(just to add:) science approves of this your DNA "relaxes" more..expanding and loosening up when feeling a state of love, and your DNA does the opposite when in fear. studies were done on this.
there's an hour long video that is well worth a watch, called "Gregg Braden - The Science of Miracles" that goes over this and many other things.
if you just want to read about the DNA experiment, here's the link about halfway down the page. (very interesting)
Quote:
Rahz said:
Shit can carry pathogens, so hate is a possible reaction to the fear of crap. If crap was generally healthy, people would generally love the smell of crap.
If someone thinks a particular activity is a complete waste of time, or instills un-useful viewpoints, hate is a possible reaction to the fear of wasting ones time or culturing views that are wasteful or even detrimental.
Try again.
i think your perspective on hate is exaggerated..it's not the same as fear. the Donnie Darko love/fear lifeline scene i thought was interesting.. whereas "life is not that simple.. you cannot just lump everything in two categories" .. "Fear and love are the deepest of human emotions".. "Ok, but you're not listening to me. There are other things that need to be taken in to account here.. like the whole spectrum of human emotion. You can't just lump everything in to two categories and then just deny everything else!"
open for discussion, but i had to remind you of the original post.
Edited by bobchillaxed (06/14/11 10:29 AM)
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Rahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14614104 - 06/14/11 07:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not sure about "DNA", but I can point out that hate is fairly tense as well. If tension is the opposite of love, then hate and fear could be the same. To your credit, hate and fear can be seen as opposites in the same sense that fight/flight are opposites, but these opposites become the same when measured against love.
But wait, there's more to see through!
(hate = fear) = love.
Smoke that and we can talk about the buzz.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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OddEye


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14615341 - 06/15/11 12:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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in my opinion the opposite of love is hate, I'm not trying to play with word but wouldn't the opposite of fear be fearless? I think love and hate can't really be true together for the same thing on the same point. If you hate and love something you do so for different reason.
-------------------- I'm at the highest peak, still glad the meak is understandin' me Artillery, thoughts of killin' me is just a fantasy The man in me is ready for war, like Holyfield-Tyson IV
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NetDiver
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: OddEye]
#14615490 - 06/15/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I always thought apathy was the opposite of every emotion.
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bobchillaxed
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: NetDiver]
#14618699 - 06/15/11 05:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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a) fear b) nothingness/emptiness
it's one of those; but i don't think it's hate as the opposite of love.
that's what i think.
-------------------- like everything else, pick out the truths and leave everything else..
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deCypher



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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: bobchillaxed]
#14618979 - 06/15/11 06:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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If I love something, I ascribe positive qualities to that thing and want to maintain its existence. if I hate something, I ascribe negative qualities to that thing and want to destroy it. Seems like opposites to me.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14626709 - 06/17/11 05:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
one example of hate having nothing to do with fear is hating the smell of shit.
Shit can carry pathogens...
I don't think little children who react hatefully to the smell of shit think about pathogens.
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Rahz said: ...so hate is a possible reaction to the fear of crap.
I guess the key-word here is "possible"..you have not established that all humans hate the smell of crap due to the fear of the potential danger that it poses.
Quote:
Rahz said: If crap was generally healthy, people would generally love the smell of crap.
What are you basing this on?
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Another example would be hating a particular TV show, or even hating TV altogether.
If someone thinks a particular activity is a complete waste of time, or instills un-useful viewpoints...
Those are not the only possible reasons for why a human might hate TV.
Quote:
Rahz said: ...hate is a possible reaction to the fear of wasting ones time or culturing views that are wasteful or even detrimental.
Again, "possible" is the key-word..you've only explained why one human might hate TV due to fear, you have not at all established that all humans who hate TV do so due to fear.
Try again.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (06/17/11 07:13 AM)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: deCypher]
#14626874 - 06/17/11 07:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: If I love something, I ascribe positive qualities to that thing and want to maintain its existence. if I hate something, I ascribe negative qualities to that thing and want to destroy it. Seems like opposites to me.
You obviously haven't met my last girlfriend. Her frustration was not being able to destroy or change the things she hated in me so she could love me all the way.
I'm still alive but not as good as before. Well in some ways better actually. Maybe a lot better. The yoke of trying has been lifted!
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Rahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14628200 - 06/17/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I guess the key-word here is "possible"..you have not established that all humans hate the smell of crap due to the fear of the potential danger that it poses.
Nor do I need to. You should not expect me to list all possible reasons for your example 'hatred of crap'. Maybe someones uncle used crap to try and suffocate them when they were a small child or something. You must show the alternative reason that contains no fear if that is your assertion. Pathogens seems to be the most logical reason for an aversion to crap, though there could be an unlimited number of reasons since we have minds that are capable of faulty correlations.
And that's what it comes down to, aversion and attraction. I will retract my statement that hate is a sub-category of fear. Hate and fear are both emotional aspects of aversion, and I cannot think of any circumstance in which I'm sure there is one without the other. When a person has a fear, there will naturally be a component of hate, even if it is dormant or repressed. When a person hates, there will naturally be a component of fear. The dominant expression is whatever seems to be the most effective strategy. There are an unlimited number of easy examples which prove this out. It's up to you to establish hate in the absence of fear or vice versa. You give me an example of 'hatred of crap' yet you do not provide a reason. Until you give a reason, we must assume the person in question hates crap just because it's 'displeasing'. However, there's nothing logical or reasonable about it if you do not provide any logic or reason.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14628478 - 06/17/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: You must show the alternative reason that contains no fear if that is your assertion.
The burden of proof is on you..you are the one who made the original claim that all hatred is rooted in fear. I have absolutely no obligation to disprove your pet-theory. 
Quote:
Rahz said: Pathogens seems to be the most logical reason for an aversion to crap...
Even though children (who don't know WTF pathogens are) are very averse to the smell of crap? Even though some people actually like the smell of crap?
Quote:
Rahz said: And that's what it comes down to, aversion and attraction. I will retract my statement that hate is a sub-category of fear. Hate and fear are both emotional aspects of aversion, and I cannot think of any circumstance in which I'm sure there is one without the other.
So, since hatred and fear are both emotional aspects of aversion, this means that they are mutually inclusive? Why?
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Rahz said: When a person has a fear, there will naturally be a component of hate, even if it is dormant or repressed.
How do you know this?
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Rahz said: When a person hates, there will naturally be a component of fear.
You're just recycling the same old crap, you have not substantiated this assertion once.
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Rahz said: The dominant expression is whatever seems to be the most effective strategy.
Maybe sometimes, sure.
But all the time? Prove it.
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Rahz said: It's up to you to establish hate in the absence of fear or vice versa.
First of all, no it's not..burden of proof is on the original claimant, which is you. Second of all, I already did.
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Rahz said: You give me an example of 'hatred of crap' yet you do not provide a reason.
I already provided the reason why we hate certain things..feelings of hate occur when our preferences are not being met, it's as simple as that.
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Rahz said: Until you give a reason, we must assume the person in question hates crap just because it's 'displeasing'.
IOW, because being exposed to the smell of crap means a particular olfactory preference is not being met..just like I said. 
Quote:
Rahz said: However, there's nothing logical or reasonable about it if you do not provide any logic or reason.
There's nothing logical/reasonable about hating something that is displeasing?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Rahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14628572 - 06/17/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
There's nothing logical/reasonable about hating something that is displeasing?
Not unless you give a reason. Simply saying you like or don't like something isn't reasonable. Surely you can grok this.
I did indicate that it's my opinion that hate and fear aren't mutually exclusive. If you would like to prove me wrong, do it. Simply stating that I haven't described every possible scenario every person might experience isn't reasonable. You know I can't do that. However, through experience I have noted that it seems they are not exclusive, so that's my story. I cannot give an example where one exists in the absence of the other... can you? Someone points a gun at my head. I'm afraid, and I'm angry. The expression is the one perceived as being most effective. It's logical that it happens like this. I want to either remove myself from the situation, or I want to remove the other person from the situation. If I run scared, I still will feel anger. If I fight, there will still be fear.
If you can provide an example where hate could be present in the complete absence of fear, then I will concede. Simply stating that something displeases you, and through some magical act of free will you choose to hate it without any fear involved is weak. You are not obligated to prove me wrong, but I see that my pet theory has more logical support so far than yours. You claim that a flat assertion is reasonable.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Poid
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Rahz]
#14628708 - 06/17/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
There's nothing logical/reasonable about hating something that is displeasing?
Not unless you give a reason. Simply saying you like or don't like something isn't reasonable. Surely you can grok this.
Surely you can grok why the pursuit of pleasure, and the avoidance of discomfort is logical/reasonable..I don't feel like I need to explain this to anybody older than 2 1/2 years old.
Quote:
Rahz said: I did indicate that it's my opinion that hate and fear aren't mutually exclusive. If you would like to prove me wrong, do it.
Again, you fail to understand the concept called "burden of proof"..you are the original claimant, the burden of proof is on you. I am under no obligation to disprove your claim, because I am simply asking you to prove your claim. If you don't do that, then you will have copped out.
Quote:
Rahz said: Simply stating that I haven't described every possible scenario every person might experience isn't reasonable. You know I can't do that. However, through experience I have noted that it seems they are not exclusive, so that's my story. I cannot give an example where one exists in the absence of the other... can you? Someone points a gun at my head. I'm afraid, and I'm angry. The expression is the one perceived as being most effective. It's logical that it happens like this. I want to either remove myself from the situation, or I want to remove the other person from the situation. If I run scared, I still will feel anger. If I fight, there will still be fear.
If you can provide an example where hate could be present in the complete absence of fear, then I will concede. Simply stating that something displeases you, and through some magical act of free will you choose to hate it without any fear involved is weak. You are not obligated to prove me wrong, but I see that my pet theory has more logical support so far than yours. You claim that a flat assertion is reasonable. 
I'm not providing shit anymore until you grasp the concept called "burden of proof", and until you fulfill your obligation in this debate as the original claimant to provide proof for your claim that fear and hate are mutually inclusive.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Rahz
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Re: Hate is not the opposite of Love. [Re: Poid]
#14628861 - 06/17/11 03:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Obviously I cannot provide proof on such a sweeping statement. However, all my experience points towards it being true. I could provide anecdote after anecdote to support it. I have already provided two and you have not attempted to argue against them. I will not, for obvious reasons, try to provide the absolute proof you ask for. From a philosophical standpoint it's often not possible to provide empirical proof for a claim in all possible situations. But what can be done is to provide supporting evidence, and likelihoods emerge. These perceptions of what is likely and unlikely constitute what we base our future actions and thoughts upon. There is more to philosophy than absolute proof.
I have seen that the angry hold fears which correlate with their anger. You provide the assertion that a person can hate shit without fear, but seem unable to explain why a person might hate shit. I suggest that if a person hates shit, whatever the reason might be, there's also going to be some fear involved. But without that information, which you are unwilling to give for some reason, there is no means to question whether fear might be present. I made a claim which is inferred. You made a claim that could easily be expounded upon with reason, and in doing so you could upset my claim because my claim is more general than yours. It would be so easy, and yet you are failing to do so. My guess is that you can't give any logic for hating shit without fear because there isn't any.
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Surely you can grok why the pursuit of pleasure, and the avoidance of discomfort is logical/reasonable
Yes! Pleasure is perceived as being healthy, and life extending, discomfort is perceived as unhealthy and life shortening. People are attracted to pleasure, and avoid discomfort unless there is some greater issue involved, which also lends itself to future pleasure or discomfort. Life is not thought centric, so it's no surprise that we may not know why we have the aversions we do. But if you want to sound reasonable, you should give reasons. To simply state that something displeases you because you don't like it is the ultimate weak argument. In defence of my argument, it's readily apparent why a person would both be angry and afraid of someone holding a gun to their head. However, I know of no reason why a person would hate shit, but not be afraid of it. It's illogical to waste resources on an emotional state when there's no specific reason to -fear- it. Are you making an appeal to irrationality?
I say if you hate shit, there is some reason that you can perceive it being unhealthy somehow. Once we hammer that out, the fear would likely be obvious, which I guess is the real reason you don't want to go there.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (06/17/11 06:13 PM)
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