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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#14595624 - 06/11/11 11:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Icelander said: If that was true in a poor country you might starve to death. I'll bet you are far from starving.
Based on your previous comments, it sounds like your hoping the Government does allow him to die.
I would have no problem with that. Our species is invested in a strong gene pool, something we are forgetting fast.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
#14595914 - 06/11/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Based on your previous comments, it sounds like your hoping the Government does allow him to die.
I would have no problem with that. Our species is invested in a strong gene pool, something we are forgetting fast.
This is a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives. Between civilized societies and many countries in Africa (where your ideal lifestyle is prevelant).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
#14595989 - 06/11/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said: That management was not doing a good job of running said company and yet made megabucks for their failures. Seems like banks rewarded failure at times also.
That's irrelevant. The people paying them thought their work was worth what they paid them for it. You think one of those wheel bolters would have done any better?
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#14596037 - 06/11/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Icelander said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Based on your previous comments, it sounds like your hoping the Government does allow him to die.
I would have no problem with that. Our species is invested in a strong gene pool, something we are forgetting fast.
This is a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives. Between civilized societies and many countries in Africa (where your ideal lifestyle is prevelant).
What does it matter if the government lets him die or not? Shouldn't the concern be over whether the person is in fact dieing rather than who is saving him?
A slur that seem unwarranted yet prominently alleged is that those against compulsory public programs for private benefit, such as charity and so forth, are somehow against the aims of those programs or against the existance of programs that would achieve those aims.
Just because you don't think the government has a right to take from one person and give to another for their private benefit does not mean that you awuiesce in someone going hungry and would not aid them.
You simply have not justified your premise that if the the government does not aid these individuals that nobody would.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: johnm214]
#14596172 - 06/11/11 01:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: You simply have not justified your premise that if the the government does not aid these individuals that nobody would
My premise is not that "nobody" would.
It seems you need to justify your premise that if Government aid were privatized, sufficient funds would be collected to cover what the Government is doing today. If that's not your premise, then Government aid is in fact the only way to cover the costs.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#14596246 - 06/11/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Icelander said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Based on your previous comments, it sounds like your hoping the Government does allow him to die.
I would have no problem with that. Our species is invested in a strong gene pool, something we are forgetting fast.
This is a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives. Between civilized societies and many countries in Africa (where your ideal lifestyle is prevelant).
I am neither what you call liberal or conservative. I decide each issue on it's merits and logic. I don't always like what I decide but it's based on what I judge to be the truth of the matter, unlike some.
I would hope when my time comes it's not the Govt who decides if, when or how I die. I'll be the judge of that thank you. If you trust to the Govt. to make your decisions for you then you better be ready and don't complain about something one brings on themselves.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
#14596287 - 06/11/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I would hope when my time comes it's not the Govt who decides if, when or how I die.
I would hope so too. What are you even talking about?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Icelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#14596331 - 06/11/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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hoping the Government does allow him to die.
I'm talking about something you wrote of course.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#14596350 - 06/11/11 02:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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johnm214 said: You simply have not justified your premise that if the the government does not aid these individuals that nobody would
My premise is not that "nobody" would.
Then what is the relevance of your discussion above: asking if the government should "allow" people to die?
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It seems you need to justify your premise that if Government aid were privatized, sufficient funds would be collected to cover what the Government is doing today.
Where did assert this? Did I, or are you just criticizing a straw man?
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If that's not your premise, then Government aid is in fact the only way to cover the costs.
What does whether the costs of "what the government is doing today", as you put it, have to do with anything? I thought we were talking about assisting people in need, not spending enough money to match some agencies budget. The later seems quite irrelevant unless you judge success by how much money you can burn through.
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BothHands
Dog Coffee



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
#14596366 - 06/11/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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PileusSonofGalt said: If you do not want them to be rich then stop buying things from there companies, they will not threaten you with a gun like the government does when you stop giving them money.
"They've monopolized the oxygen."
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
#14596426 - 06/11/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Icelander said: I would hope when my time comes it's not the Govt who decides if, when or how I die.
I would hope so too. What are you even talking about?
hoping the Government does allow him to die. I'm talking about something you wrote of course. 
If you're in a situation where you're dying, and you don't want Government help, then don't ask for it. You'll have MORE choices, not less.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Icelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#14596460 - 06/11/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Any if you want their help you'll do it on their terms and then from then on.
The only reason for big govt is if people don't know how to manage their affairs. But at least they have someone to blame for their own mistakes.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: BothHands]
#14596467 - 06/11/11 02:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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BothHands said:
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PileusSonofGalt said: If you do not want them to be rich then stop buying things from there companies, they will not threaten you with a gun like the government does when you stop giving them money.
"They've monopolized the oxygen."
Cause you sold them the rights to it so you could by a leather sofa.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BothHands
Dog Coffee



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
#14596479 - 06/11/11 02:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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BothHands said:
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PileusSonofGalt said: If you do not want them to be rich then stop buying things from there companies, they will not threaten you with a gun like the government does when you stop giving them money.
"They've monopolized the oxygen."
Cause you sold them the rights to it so you could by a leather sofa.
I'm assuming that's the collective "you." If not, explain to me why I'm solely responsible for the monopolies on things that are becoming more and more essential to live in this day and age. If it's the former, then you probably should have used "we," as you're using electricity to power your computer like the rest of us.
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Icelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: BothHands]
#14596498 - 06/11/11 03:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes "we" but I'm not the one complaining. Based on human history I expect what is happening will happen as in all large cultures as they continue to expand. Now it's a world culture but that really only changes the scope of things. As Sting said in a song. When the world is going down, make the best of what's still around and that's about all I have time for. Life is short.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: johnm214]
#14596508 - 06/11/11 03:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: Then what is the relevance of your discussion above: asking if the government should "allow" people to die?
My point was that I don't think private funding would cover what's done by the Government. I made this clear in my last post, and specifically asked if you thought private funding would cover such costs, which you haven't yet answered.
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johnm214 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: It seems you need to justify your premise that if Government aid were privatized, sufficient funds would be collected to cover what the Government is doing today.
Where did assert this? Did I, or are you just criticizing a straw man?
Where did I say "that if the the government does not aid these individuals that nobody would"??? Did I, or were you just critizing a sraw man?
You implied that private funding would cover what's done by the Government today. If you meant private funding would cover a greatly reduced version of that, then you should say so.
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johnm214 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: If that's not your premise, then Government aid is in fact the only way to cover the costs.
What does whether the costs of "what the government is doing today", as you put it, have to do with anything? I thought we were talking about assisting people in need, not spending enough money to match some agencies budget.
I asked whether whether private funding would cover the costs of what the Government does today. Not if they can do it for the same cost. Do you think it could?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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BothHands
Dog Coffee



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
#14596516 - 06/11/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said: When the world is going down, make the best of what's still around
That's exactly what I'm doing. I was just pointing out that it's not so easy to just stop buying things from corporations.
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Icelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: BothHands]
#14596587 - 06/11/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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True dat and I don't even try to stop. Fortunately I'm not the typical consumer and don't want that much. I don't have the time to make proper use of what I got.
I used to think something was wrong with what is going on in my world culture. Then I went back and reread my ancient history. As Mr. Natural sez:Twas ever thus
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MisterMuscaria



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
#14596607 - 06/11/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I cant even understand why the poor dislike the rich. If anything you'd think they would like them and butter them up to try to get into their wallets with whatever goods and services they are peddling to try to get enough money to get rich. How much money someone else has is no business of anyone else and should not effect them in any way.
As for the tax thing no one should be taxed, period. If people are to be taxed it should be the same percentage for everyone.
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ShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: MisterMuscaria]
#14596651 - 06/11/11 03:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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MisterMuscaria said: I cant even understand why the poor dislike the rich. If anything you'd think they would like them and butter them up to try to get into their wallets with whatever goods and services they are peddling to try to get enough money to get rich. How much money someone else has is no business of anyone else and should not effect them in any way.
As for the tax thing no one should be taxed, period. If people are to be taxed it should be the same percentage for everyone.
Because a 30% tax on an income of $22,350 (the official "poverty level" cutoff) leaves a person with ~$15,000 net income for a year is somehow comparable to somebody making $10,000,000 a year, where after taxes they net $7,000,000 a year is somehow fair, right? Flat taxes don't work, don't even think for a second the ever would.
The rich are getting richer on a broken ass system (the stock market), while the poor are excluded because they don't have the funds to ever get into the system. The conservatives in our government today somehow think that tossing a bigger tax break to the rich, while freezing government employee salaries, and making them pay more for health benefits (a LOT of middle class workers work for the government), is somehow going to fix this situation.
Please tell me how it is not the responsibility of these ultra wealthy to somehow pay back the people, that were admitted in the OP, that got them to where they are? You give somebody a boost to get out of a burning building, and they turn their backs and save themselves before reaching down and helping you up. Thats not socialism, thats humanism.
Nobody is looking at millionaires and expecting them to give them half their wealth, but I don't quite think it is too much to ask that these people stop shipping jobs overseas because they would rather pay a little Asian kid a dollar a day than you the (STILL ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC) minimum wage in America. You seem to be turning a blind eye to the problem, and if I had to guess, I would say that you come from a well-off situation where you never had to go hungry as a child because your parents could barely afford to keep the roof over your head.
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