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Offlineweedist
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: devek]
    #14577879 - 06/08/11 01:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

devek said:
If you scratch the skin of the “modern” man there is still a brutal Neanderthal lurking in the darkness of our collective psyche: men who can kill, rape, and commit the most gruesome atrocities.



just because we can doesnt mean we will


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OfflinePrecariousCibarius
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: weedist]
    #14581525 - 06/08/11 07:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm all for optimism and everything but...



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OfflineHashishin13
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: PrecariousCibarius]
    #14585340 - 06/09/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Overpopulation is a myth, the more people we have the more things we can get done. Also the more people we have the biger our markets become, and with mroe potential consumers there will be more products at cheaper prices.

Why do you think there are dozens of movie theatres in a city but only one in a town? Its population density and potential customers that encourage more theatres.

Also population growth is slowing down in almost all the countries, the developed world is actually in decline if you look at native births.

Humans aren't bacteria, we think and therefore self limit our population when birth control is available and when there are incentives to have less kids.

In the developing world they need more children to work on farms or earn money so the family doesn't starve, as countries get developed it becmoes a net cash loss to have kids so people have less.


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It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


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OfflinePrecariousCibarius
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Hashishin13]
    #14591571 - 06/10/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

.... yeah i'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one... who's to say that more movie theaters is a good thing when it does nothing for the human race or the planet in general? i'm not a greeny tree hugger but I think that we as a species are in the midst of a huge dilemma whereby our illusions of what is proper and necessary for existence no longer fundamentally coincide with natural order. It's to the point now where it's almost completely illegal to live outside of contemporary human society and get back to a more natural existence.

and dude.. there are WAY too many people on the planet. you must be smoking some crazy shit


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OfflinePrecariousCibarius
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: PrecariousCibarius]
    #14591581 - 06/10/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i'd keep the internet though - it's radness.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Hashishin13]
    #14591602 - 06/10/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Hashishin13 said:
Overpopulation is a myth, the more people we have the more things we can get done. Also the more people we have the biger our markets become, and with mroe potential consumers there will be more products at cheaper prices.

Why do you think there are dozens of movie theatres in a city but only one in a town? Its population density and potential customers that encourage more theatres.

Also population growth is slowing down in almost all the countries, the developed world is actually in decline if you look at native births.

Humans aren't bacteria, we think and therefore self limit our population when birth control is available and when there are incentives to have less kids.

In the developing world they need more children to work on farms or earn money so the family doesn't starve, as countries get developed it becmoes a net cash loss to have kids so people have less.



You're on the right track, but you seem to imply that more people is always good, which I can't get behind.  It's true that overpopulation is a myth in the sense of the Earth's current carrying capacity.  The Earth can easily support the current population and a few billion more.  But there is an upper limit to its carrying capacity.  Fortunately, birth rates are already starting to level off, and we're unlikely to ever reach that upper limit.


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OfflinePrecariousCibarius
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: PrecariousCibarius]
    #14591705 - 06/10/11 05:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

lets hope so. I'll agree that we are beginning to moderate ourselves better - things will probably get way better with continued and appropriate resource management. But i still think that there's a heavy imbalance within the world - a lack of sustainability driven by growth mentality.

what is it exactly that we are growing FOR in the first place? that's what I'm trying to get at.. everyone's running in the same direction.. jobs jobs jobs, push push push, money money money... but why? What are we trying to do? If we're just trying to get along and live together on the planet from now until the end of time (meaning "this is it, this is where we will be and where we will always come back to) what's up with this rhetoric about growth and industry and drive? are we moving toward moving off the earth? are we merely trying to advance our understand of the world? are we fighting for global domination? Financially or physically?
We got a lot of good things out of it.. antiseptics, global communication networks, advancing knowledge and understanding of the universe, breast implants....
but I kinda think that we have a strange an non-beneficial way of going about achieving these things.


Edited by PrecariousCibarius (06/10/11 05:47 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: PrecariousCibarius]
    #14591737 - 06/10/11 05:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The real problem is not out-of-control population growth, but an addiction to economic growth.  We need to learn as a civilization to live within our means.  Part of that, however, means learning to share the resources we have more equitably.  Once exponential growth becomes unattainable(as is likely to happen as a result of peak oil), people will be less tolerant of all the wealth going to the top, and eventually we'll be compelled to build a more fair and just society.


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OfflinePrecariousCibarius
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14591797 - 06/10/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

it kinda seems like that would be the ideal outcome - but when peak oil comes and goes, whoever gets their hands on the next primary source of energy will begin the cycle all over again. i'm sure they've already got it planned out. unless of course lawrence livermore labs is successful in their attempt at perfecting fusion power.. (i'm sure we'll still get a huge bill from the utility companies)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: PrecariousCibarius]
    #14591878 - 06/10/11 06:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PrecariousCibarius said:
it kinda seems like that would be the ideal outcome - but when peak oil comes and goes, whoever gets their hands on the next primary source of energy will begin the cycle all over again. i'm sure they've already got it planned out. unless of course lawrence livermore labs is successful in their attempt at perfecting fusion power.. (i'm sure we'll still get a huge bill from the utility companies)



What you describe is only possible if that primary source of energy is some scarce, easily controlled resource, like oil.  If, on the other hand, it's something we can grow ourselves, like biofuels, or energy that can be harvested anywhere, like solar and wind, then would-be monopolists have a much bigger task ahead of them.


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OfflinePrecariousCibarius
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14591945 - 06/10/11 06:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

agreed


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OfflineHashishin13
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14592451 - 06/10/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

My point is we naturally limit ourselves, as we reach the carrying capacity it will become exponentially more expensive to live and if people have to pay their own way thery will limit themselves to less or no children, we don't need bureocrats doing it for us.


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It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


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OfflineHashishin13
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: PrecariousCibarius]
    #14592489 - 06/10/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What you two need to understand is that oil isn't going to disappear as quickly as we found and used it up. Also all the toher traditional power sources are still more efficient then wind and solar.

The way the price system works is that as things get scarcer they get proportionally more expensive. This means that without any government agent taxing and regulating we will naturally be weaned off oil as we slowely use it up.

We have only just hit peak oil, which in case you didn't know means we have only just started finding less new oil then the oil we use up, it ignores the massive reserves.

I suggest looking up libertarianism and austrian economics, they explain a lot more about life then you might think.


--------------------
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Hashishin13]
    #14592544 - 06/10/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Hashishin13 said:
Also all the toher traditional power sources are still more efficient then wind and solar.



Not if you take away the subsidies.  Furthermore, if we taxed land values instead of

Quote:

I suggest looking up libertarianism and austrian economics, they explain a lot more about life then you might think.



As a former libertarian, I will suggest that people take anything the Austrian school says with a grain of salt.  They have their points, but they tend toward extreme dogmatism.  I recommend reading economists from a wide variety of different schools, from post-Keynesian to Georgist to Institutionalist to Evolutionary and Behavioral economics.  If there's any Austrian economist I recommend, it's Hayek, as he was the least dogmatic out of all of them.  People like Von Mises and Rothbard turned Austrian economics into a cult.


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OfflineHashishin13
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14595843 - 06/11/11 12:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Solar panels don't even generate as much power as it takes to make them, let alone all the materials and transportation costs. If it wasn't for rubes and government subsidies we would probably only see them on space stations and satelites.

Wind is also heavily subsidized and the most economical designs they have, those giant white ones, give off a high pitched whine that screws with people's and animal's minds.

The word cult is so meaningless its laughable to use it against anything. There is lots of arguement and diverse opinions amongst austrians so how could they possibly be a cult?

Murray and Von Mises even disagree on fundamentals like whther or not government is legitimate, so calling them cult leaders is really off base.

Why are you a former libertarian? Freedom too much for you?:P


--------------------
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Hashishin13]
    #14596055 - 06/11/11 01:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Hashishin13 said:
Solar panels don't even generate as much power as it takes to make them, let alone all the materials and transportation costs. If it wasn't for rubes and government subsidies we would probably only see them on space stations and satelites.



Source?  I find this a particularly dubious claim, given that nuclear power receives far more subsidies, yet gets hardly any private sector investment.

Quote:

Wind is also heavily subsidized and the most economical designs they have, those giant white ones, give off a high pitched whine that screws with people's and animal's minds.



Again, I'm going to have to see a source on that.  Wind, like solar, gets lots of private market investment, and is also one of the most efficient sources of electricity out there.

Quote:

The word cult is so meaningless its laughable to use it against anything. There is lots of arguement and diverse opinions amongst austrians so how could they possibly be a cult?



I'm sure you can find some disagreements among Scientologists as well.

Quote:

Why are you a former libertarian? Freedom too much for you?:P



No.  I just realized that freedom means a lot more than what dupes like Ron Paul are talking about.  Actually, it's not so much that I stopped being libertarian.  It would be more accurate to say that I moved from right-libertarian("propertarian" would be a better term) to left-libertarian.  It was reading left-libertarian ideas from people like Proudhon, Benjamin Tucker, and Henry George that I realized how private property, far from being a guarantor of liberty as the Austrians insisted, was quite often a means to tyranny.  In short, it was realizing how tyranny was not limited to government that snapped me out of my stupor.


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Edited by Silversoul (06/11/11 01:40 PM)


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OfflineHashishin13
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14597815 - 06/11/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I can't remember where I heard that bit about solar panels, and I don't feel like hunting for evidence, but just think about it. Everyone knows solar panels generate next to no electricity, a giant array in the middle of the desert isn't even equal to a medium sized coal plant or dam. Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to melt glass and wiring? If you were to do it with electricity it would be insanely expensive.

The wind thing I know because they were proposing putting one up by my cottage and it got turned down on that basis. Go look at Denmark where they were invented and used on land for a while, they have since banned their use from land and they are only allowed out in the ocean now.

How can you possibly say that being subject to private property is worse then being subject to your community? At least under private property you have a chance of being left alone and living how you want, regardless of how everyone else wants to live. If your community is screwed up under left-anarchy your just a slave.

It reminds me of an arguement I had one time where the person asked me if the slaves being able to work their way out of slavery and then being able to own slaves themselves lessened how objectionable slavery was, and I think that absolutely it does, and it should to any rational person.

If "Roots" was a movie about black slave owners in the south would it really have been as harshly impacting? I doubt it.


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It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


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Offlineweedist
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Hashishin13]
    #14599135 - 06/12/11 01:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

But wheres the evidence?


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OfflinePrecariousCibarius
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: Hashishin13]
    #14599926 - 06/12/11 08:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Hashishin13 said:

If we are doing badly in your eyes, we are still good overall because before us THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS BAD. Morality and caring for other species ORIGINATED WITH US.





oh yea? oh yea?



i REST MY CASE :n00bslayer:


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OfflineHashishin13
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Re: Is the world getting better or worse? [Re: PrecariousCibarius]
    #14600379 - 06/12/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I meant species not individuals. -.-

Which is more likely, the dog is worried about tigers going extinct so its nursing baby tigers or is it that the tiger babies crying sounds a lot like puppies?

I REST MY CASE.


--------------------
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


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