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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14593201 - 06/10/11 10:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Well in this case, what if's are incredibly significant. Since physical descriptions continue to be updated, it is more reasonable to think that physical descriptions are incomplete than to say they are complete.


So incomplete means incorrect, and incorrect means illusory? Gotcha. :thumbup:


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Therefor by saying what if, we are highlighting something that is consistent with our worldview.

We then go further to show that since this view is both consistent and involves less assumptions, it is more reasonable to hold.


Again, the idea that your mind is all that exists is loaded with the baseless assumption that no other minds exist..the idea that every human has a mind is loaded with the evidence-backed assumption that humans other than yourself have a mind.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
When people diss 'what if's it is usually in the case of 'what if XYZ RANDOM STRANGE SITUATION' was the case or 'what if ELABORATE THEORY REGARDING WEIRD POSITS'.

To simply say what if in this case is to highlight reasonable counterfactuals which show that no illusion/reality definition is absolute and thus anything could be illusion.

You seem to have an idea of illusion that you are not sharing, why don't you define illusion in your way?


No, it is you who seems to be using some sort of unconventional use of the term..please share it with all of us. I am using the term 'illusion' as it's defined in the dictionary.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Also you seem to think my 'theory' is ridiculous. I dont see how it is ridiculous unless you are using your own definition of the word illusion and mixing it with mine. Which is itself quite probable, given that many people apply various connotations to the word 'illusion' which make the claim that 'everything is an illusion' seem quite odd.


Your theory is ridiculous because it is backed up by nothing more than mere "Perhapses" and "What ifs".


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593253 - 06/10/11 10:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Actually I can back my claim with science:

Do straight lines exist? Well apparently straight lines are illusory since space-time is in fact curved in all kinds of ways. You could equally say that the curvature of space time is an illusion caused by the mathematics that you are using.

Do atoms exist? well apparently not, only a wave function exists. But the wave function might just as well be an illusion caused by the epistemic limits of observation.

I dont feel like derailing this thread anymore with your inability to understand these ideas.

Exploring all counterfactuals is a basic technique of coming to understanding. By considering all counterfactuals we can come to greater understanding. You could say that im just backing my statement with 'what if physics is illusory?'. But you are just backing up your statement by saying 'what if physics is not illusory?' You have not used those words because it is common in today's climate to assume physicalism. physicalism is the contemporary trend I was talking about btw


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14593327 - 06/10/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Actually I can back my claim with science:

Do straight lines exist? Well apparently straight lines are illusory since space-time is in fact curved in all kinds of ways. You could equally say that the curvature of space time is an illusion caused by the mathematics that you are using.


Does the term 'straight line' have a definition? We refer to them often, don't we? Then they exist.

Not a hard concept to grasp, breh.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Do atoms exist? well apparently not, only a wave function exists. But the wave function might just as well be an illusion caused by the epistemic limits of observation.


Atoms have been discovered to be particles and waves, right? Then they exist (as particles and waves).

Not a hard concept to grasp, breh.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I dont feel like derailing this thread anymore with your inability to understand these ideas.


It's hilarious that you think I'm the one misunderstanding things here..your assumption that I don't understand that lines aren't actually ultimately perfectly straight (due to the curvature of spacetime), and that atoms are waves is cute, and quaintly retarded.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
You could say that im just backing my statement with 'what if physics is illusory?'. But you are just backing up your statement by saying 'what if physics is not illusory?


No I'm not, my position on the matter is backed up by the what the latest science is telling us..I, for one, don't outrightly disagree with science. :levitate:


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
'You have not used those words because it is common in today's climate to assume physicalism. physicalism is the contemporary trend I was talking about btw


Is there a point you're trying to make here? Everything is always all muddled up with you, never a clear and distinct point. :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/10/11 10:47 PM)

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593671 - 06/11/11 12:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...there's no real "you" to begin with.


What do you mean by this?



The chemical reactions and processes that govern your behavior don't magically stop at the borders of your skull. What you do is entirely a product of genetics, instinct, and environment.

So, where does the environment end, and where do you begin? Nowhere... there's no hard line you can draw saying, "this is where the factors that influence me end, and here's where "I" truly begin."

Even your idea of yourself is a factor of the physical environment, which is always changing. Change is what allows us to exist (change = time; time is a precondition of our experience; Kant made quite a detailed argument to that effect), but as we are necessarily in a perpetual state of change, no one version of us can be said to be permanent or definitive.

You're always a work in progress; even after you die and no more events are added to your life, other peoples' ideas of you (which is all that remains of you) change. There is no final, finished version of "you." You're a fleeting voice in someone's head, which will eventually return to the environment and feed the grass and the trees.

There's a lot of debate about personal identity in philosophy, check it out: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/


--------------------

Edited by NetDiver (06/11/11 12:11 AM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14593712 - 06/11/11 12:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...there's no real "you" to begin with.


What do you mean by this?



The chemical reactions and processes that govern your behavior don't magically stop at the borders of your skull. What you do is entirely a product of genetics, instinct, and environment. Even your idea of yourself is a factor of the physical environment, which is always changing. Change is what allows us to exist (change = time; time is a precondition of our experience; Kant made quite a detailed argument to that effect), but as we are necessarily in a perpetual state of change, no one version of us can be said to be permanent or definitive.


Were you going to insert a closing parenthesis somewhere? :undecided:

We're defined as being a dynamic (i.e. changing) system..how does this mean that there's no real "you" to begin with?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
You're always a work in progress; even after you die and no more events are added to your life, other peoples' ideas of you (which is all that remains of you) change. There is no final, finished version of "you." You're a fleeting voice in someone's head, which will eventually return to the environment and feed the grass and the trees.


Wikipedia defines the self as being an individual person as the object of his or her own reflective consciousness..according to this definition, another person's idea of me is not a part of my self.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
There's a lot of debate about personal identity in philosophy, check it out: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/


I don't see why one would entertain the idea that one person's conception of another person is part of the latter person's personal identity. :shrug:

Sure, one person's conception of another person can have an influence on how the latter person views him/herself, but the former person's conception itself is not a part of the latter person's self.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593727 - 06/11/11 12:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Because after you die, the only "identity" of yours that's left exists in the memories of other people.

And you're forgetting, of course, that all of these words, like "dynamic, changing system" are just being produced by neurons in a brain, doing so strictly as a result of environmental influences, and in no way as the result of a mysterious entity immune to the laws of physics called "You."


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14593775 - 06/11/11 12:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Because after you die, the only "identity" of yours that's left exists in the memories of other people.


But that is not my self, that is just a conception of what I am that is external to my self.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
And you're forgetting, of course, that all of these words, like "dynamic, changing system" are just being produced by neurons in a brain, doing so strictly as a result of environmental influences, and in no way as the result of a mysterious entity immune to the laws of physics called "You."


I'm not sure why you seem to be implying that I'm suggesting that the self is some sort of mysterious entity immune to the laws of physics..the self, as defined by Wikipedia, is an individual's conception of their own self. It is a dynamic psychological schema. There is no implication here whatsoever that it is immune to the laws of physics.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593937 - 06/11/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I am aware of the definition. But you seem to be unaware of the epistemic limits of the source of the definition; i.e. humans.

Telling me the definition of what a self is supposed to be does not make it real. What does a "dynamic psychological scheme" even mean, really? Dynamic = changing, well, everything is changing so that's hardly descriptive. Psychology refers to the study of the mind, but what is the mind, anyway? Hardly well defined.

Definitions of words aren't pure, objective truths that appear out of thin air.


--------------------

Edited by NetDiver (06/11/11 01:40 AM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14593963 - 06/11/11 01:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe I am unaware of them..might you explain them to me? What are the epistemic limits of the source of the definition, and how do they somehow support your position on this matter while at the same time discount mine?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593980 - 06/11/11 01:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Edited my post. :ninja:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14594019 - 06/11/11 01:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Telling me the definition of what a self is supposed to be does not make it real.


And telling me that there's no real "you" to begin with does not make it so.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
What does a "dynamic psychological scheme" even mean, really? Dynamic = changing, well, everything is changing so that's hardly descriptive. Psychology refers to the study of the mind, but what is the mind, anyway? Hardly well defined.


So, because it isn't well defined, this means it is non-existent? Our knowledge of the electron evolved over time..it started out as an obscure particle, and ended up being defined in a more detailed fashion. The electron existed as it always did, even when our definition of it was largely incomplete and vague.

What are you asking really when you say "What does a "dynamic psychological scheme" even mean, really?"? What is it about this phenomenon are you unaware of, what kind of answer are you looking for? The answer from a physical/neurological perspective (that it is a certain collection/pattern of interacting neurons)?

How detailed does the definition for the self need to be defined in order for you to believe that it exists? Why does its definition have to be so excruciatingly detailed in order for you to believe that it exists? Seems like unreasonable skepticism to me, and perhaps even a bit of wishful thinking.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Definitions of words aren't pure, objective truths that appear out of thin air.


But they may point to objective truths.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Edited my post. :ninja:


I'd still appreciate it if you addressed my previous post. :sun:

Quote:

Poid said:
Maybe I am unaware of them..might you explain them to me? What are the epistemic limits of the source of the definition, and how do they somehow support your position on this matter while at the same time discount mine?




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/11/11 02:15 AM)

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14594077 - 06/11/11 02:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

A detailed description should at least be possible for something that exists. It's more a matter of societal convention than anything. If everybody in our society had multiple personalities, what would our concept of self-hood be like? What about if we all had terrible amnesia or short-term memory? :shrug:

These are just a few physiological items that are what I would call "epistemic limits" for some people. Somebody who is schizophrenic has a naturally differing idea of their identity in relation to their body. In most cases, they are able to recognize that it is due to what we call a mental illness. But, if the majority of people in society were schizophrenic, the others would be considered insane and a different concept of self would prevail.

A self is not an objectively measurable entity. We can measure the length of objects in feet, sounds in decibels, weight in grams, but there's no objective tool by which we can measure the beginning or end of a person, because the lines at that point are arbitrary. Does a person begin at their birth? What about the fact that their birth was predetermined long before it occurred by the genetics of their parents? And the fact that their behavior depends largely on those genetics, inherited from other people with other experiences? Where do you end and your genetics/environmental influences begin? How can you really separate a person from their environment, from the whole system? Even your definition was predetermined by those factors.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14594673 - 06/11/11 06:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yah, teleportation (by replication) never will be possible without the death of the experiencing self as far as I can see.
Is this the hint to a possible definition of a soul ? How far is that connected to a 'self' ?
Can someone summarize for me please ? :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14594960 - 06/11/11 08:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
A detailed description should at least be possible for something that exists.


I'm wondering why the current description isn't detailed enough for you.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It's more a matter of societal convention than anything. If everybody in our society had multiple personalities, what would our concept of self-hood be like? What about if we all had terrible amnesia or short-term memory? :shrug:


What would it matter if our self-hood would be different? What does this have to do with your claim that there is no real self to begin with? Just because our self-hood would be different in the scenarios you mention doesn't mean that they would be non-existent.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
These are just a few physiological items that are what I would call "epistemic limits" for some people. Somebody who is schizophrenic has a naturally differing idea of their identity in relation to their body. In most cases, they are able to recognize that it is due to what we call a mental illness. But, if the majority of people in society were schizophrenic, the others would be considered insane and a different concept of self would prevail.


I still don't see how this ties into your claim that there is no real self to begin with..schizos still have a sense of self, however different it may be than an "ordinary" person's sense of self. In a society of schizos, each schizo would still have an existent sense of self.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
A self is not an objectively measurable entity.


But we can each prove its existence because we each have a self..our inability to objectively prove it is irrelevant here.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
We can measure the length of objects in feet, sounds in decibels, weight in grams, but there's no objective tool by which we can measure the beginning or end of a person, because the lines at that point are arbitrary.


Why does it matter if they're arbitrary? The line between life and death is arbitrarily drawn, but life is a scientifically solid concept nonetheless.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Does a person begin at their birth?


No, they probably begin at the moment of their conception.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
What about the fact that their birth was predetermined long before it occurred by the genetics of their parents?


What about it?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
And the fact that their behavior depends largely on those genetics, inherited from other people with other experiences?


What about it?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Where do you end and your genetics/environmental influences begin?


My genetics are a part of me..environmental influences begin where the system that is my body ends.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
How can you really separate a person from their environment, from the whole system?


Because of its distinct properties in relation to the rest of the system that it (a person) is apart of.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Even your definition was predetermined by those factors.


And?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14594969 - 06/11/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Poid, he isn't saying we don't have an idea of self. He is saying our idea of self is what determines how we perceive our self to exist. Like when you say its a dynamic psychological schema. It doesn't exist the same way an apple does. If we have different ideas of apples, the apples don't change for them. Our ideas we have when we think about apples might change, but the apples won't. However, if you think you have multiple selves, its easy to get caught up in that and actually behave that way. The "self" doesn't change, per say, it never existed. Like an actor that was handed a new part.

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14595099 - 06/11/11 09:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Yah, teleportation (by replication) never will be possible without the death of the experiencing self as far as I can see.
Is this the hint to a possible definition of a soul ? How far is that connected to a 'self' ?
Can someone summarize for me please ? :grin:




The original person would cease to experience, and an almost exact replica would be created elsewhere. The reason they can't be exact replicas, thus continuing the experience of the original person, is because you have to take into account the spacial position and position in time of each particle.

That seems to be the most logical way of explaining it imo.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14595375 - 06/11/11 10:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yah, thank you :thumbup:
So science supports the theory the 'self' doesn't live on in a replica.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14596113 - 06/11/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Kinda like saying no two electrons are the same because they occupy different places.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14599215 - 06/12/11 02:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So then, if the (same) self does not appear or continue in an exact replica, can we conclude the self is not an illusion ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599231 - 06/12/11 02:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

All selves are the same!

It's only the situation that is different. I am you and you are me. It sounds wrong, but it's only the details that give reason to pause. Life is life. If we think we are more than that, that is illusion.

An idea (self) is an idea. Individual uniqueness is only an obfuscitator.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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