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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592532 - 06/10/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.





The problem with claims that the 'self' or even the 'mind' is just an illusion is that... well.. what ISNT an illusion?


What the hell are you talking about?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14592619 - 06/10/11 08:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.

It is clear that all things can be considered illusory.

The only meaningful sense of illusion is comparing a reported perception with a physical description.

But this is not meaningful when considering the ontology of reality, since physical descriptions are just theories that we create, which themselves may be 'illusory' with respect to a more fundamental reality.

It is very popular to call our consciousness an illusion, but innapropriate.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592646 - 06/10/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.

Pure energy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #14592705 - 06/10/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I like noteworthy's take on this.  It reminds me of when somebody posts that time is an illusion.  All the substantiation they post for it can just as easily be applied to space, charge, or any other concept.  They pick out time because it is not intuitive to them, and because of that they consider it an illusion.  But its not an illusion, and neither is space, charge and other concepts.

Similarly, here the 'self' is being labeled as an illusion and the substantiation for that claim could just as easily be applied to nearly everything.  But its not being applied to everything, the 'self' has been singled out because it is non-intuitive.  So you can either claim that everything is an illusion, or the 'self' is not an illusion.  For simplicity, I choose the latter.

Non-intuitive =/= an illusion.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592717 - 06/10/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.


Everything that's not defined to be illusory..this post, for example.

Correction: anything can be called an illusion, but not everything can be correctly called an illusion (because not everything is an illusion).


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
It is very popular to call our consciousness an illusion, but innapropriate.


It's not only inappropriate, it's incorrect.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14592772 - 06/10/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.


Everything that's not defined to be illusory..this post, for example.

Correction: anything can be called an illusion, but not everything can be correctly called an illusion (because not everything is an illusion).


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
It is very popular to call our consciousness an illusion, but innapropriate.


It's not only inappropriate, it's incorrect.





Why is this post not illusory? What if the post does not exist? In fact, does the post exist? The post seems to have straight lines. Perhaps straight lines don't exist. We nevertheless percieve them.

You claim that not everything is an illusion. Well obviously not 'everything' in the ultimate total sense, because then the word illusion would not have the same meaning that it does now. But it could be that 'everything' that we think about or conceptualise or percieve, IS an illusion. Not just that it COULD be in some unlikely counterfactual but that it reasonably can be considered so.

Unless of course you thought that our humanity is divine and has direct access to what is ultimately, totally, 'true'...

I will repeat that the most meaningful sense of the word 'illusion' involves comparing one perception to a 'standard' perception. This standard is arbitrary, but we often use the physical standard because it can be measured by everyone. Nevertheless, everyone might be under a 'collective illusion'. Unless we thought our physical theory was absolutely true then we ought to assume that everything IS an illusion with respect to a greater 'standard' that we have not yet come to understand or percieve.


--------------------

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14592881 - 06/10/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, illusion was a bad word for it. The whole subject of my theory is the subjective feeling of experience. My basis for this is that with you living now, what if an exact replica of you existed? Would you experience through both bodies? I don't think you would. So if this is true, why wouldn't it be the same after the original "you" was deceased? I just think that it is an interesting thought that doesn't make sense to me as it seems to add some quality to matter that isn't physical. This clearly goes against my general world view.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14592896 - 06/10/11 09:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think that in order for you to experience through both bodies, the two bodies would have to be connected in a similar way that the parts of your brain connect to make one experience


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592960 - 06/10/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I think that in order for you to experience through both bodies, the two bodies would have to be connected in a similar way that the parts of your brain connect to make one experience




Exactly, but doesn't this mean i am assigning a non-physical trait to something? It seems to defy materialism. Both bodies are exactly the same physically, but i still say there is an objective difference.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

Edited by iThink (06/10/11 09:40 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14592976 - 06/10/11 09:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

non-physical? maybe. probably best not to jump to conclusions.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Kickle]
    #14592995 - 06/10/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
non-physical? maybe. probably best not to jump to conclusions.




But how else do you explain it?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592997 - 06/10/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only example I can think of close to what you posed would be the below stories.....Im sure there is another study that could say the opposite

http://somethinamazing.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-most-fascinating-twin-stories-you.html


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14593009 - 06/10/11 09:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Yes, illusion was a bad word for it. The whole subject of my theory is the subjective feeling of experience. My basis for this is that with you living now, what if an exact replica of you existed? Would you experience through both bodies? I don't think you would. So if this is true, why wouldn't it be the same after the original "you" was deceased? I just think that it is an interesting thought that doesn't make sense to me as it seems to add some quality to matter that isn't physical. This clearly goes against my general world view.




An exact replica would exist at the exact same location, and thus experience the same things.  Some particles can really be exactly the same, that is they can exist with all the same properties including location.  But others cannot have all the same properties, which means they cannot exist in the same place.  Thus you cannot have exact copies of these particles.  Your body is made up of these types of particles, so there can be only one.  You cannot have an exact copy.  You can make a replica that is close, but not exact. 

(Now I am wondering about a hypothetical consciousness that is made of bosons and can exist in the same location with the same properties...  Confusing, but both 'bodies' would experience the same thing so it kind of skirts your question)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14593021 - 06/10/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Say there is a brain, which even when cloned, remains isolated experientially. I explain this by saying there is space between the original brain and the cloned brain. There is space between experiences. Same as there is space between what I see and my experience of it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14593039 - 06/10/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.


Everything that's not defined to be illusory..this post, for example.

Correction: anything can be called an illusion, but not everything can be correctly called an illusion (because not everything is an illusion).


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
It is very popular to call our consciousness an illusion, but innapropriate.


It's not only inappropriate, it's incorrect.





Why is this post not illusory?


Look up the term 'illusory', then get back to me.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
What if the post does not exist?





Quote:

Noteworthy said:
In fact, does the post exist?


Yes.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
The post seems to have straight lines. Perhaps straight lines don't exist. We nevertheless percieve them.


Just keep it comin'. :braindamage:


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
You claim that not everything is an illusion. Well obviously not 'everything' in the ultimate total sense, because then the word illusion would not have the same meaning that it does now. But it could be that 'everything' that we think about or conceptualise or percieve, IS an illusion.


Now you're changing your claim from "Everything is an illusion" to "It could be that everything that we think about or conceptualize or perceive is an illusion".

You do know there is a difference between 'false' and 'illusory', right? Even if all of our conceptualizations are false, this doesn't necessarily mean that they're illusions.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Not just that it COULD be in some unlikely counterfactual but that it reasonably can be considered so.


Well what reasoning besides "What if?" do you have to back this up with?


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Unless of course you thought that our humanity is divine and has direct access to what is ultimately, totally, 'true'...


Strawman, and false dichotomy..I never made that claim, and it's not like either our conceptualizations have to be illusory, or humanity is divine.

Why do you think that, if our conceptualizations are true, this means that humanity is divine? Do you know what 'divine' means?


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I will repeat that the most meaningful sense of the word 'illusion' involves comparing one perception to a 'standard' perception. This standard is arbitrary, but we often use the physical standard because it can be measured by everyone. Nevertheless, everyone might be under a 'collective illusion'.


"Mights" and "What ifs" are not enough to back up this ridiculous theory of yours, sorry. :lol:


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Unless we thought our physical theory was absolutely true then we ought to assume that everything IS an illusion with respect to a greater 'standard' that we have not yet come to understand or percieve.


Another false dichotomy..either our physical theory is absolutely true, or everything is an illusion.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/10/11 10:18 PM)

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: DieCommie]
    #14593065 - 06/10/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Yes, illusion was a bad word for it. The whole subject of my theory is the subjective feeling of experience. My basis for this is that with you living now, what if an exact replica of you existed? Would you experience through both bodies? I don't think you would. So if this is true, why wouldn't it be the same after the original "you" was deceased? I just think that it is an interesting thought that doesn't make sense to me as it seems to add some quality to matter that isn't physical. This clearly goes against my general world view.




An exact replica would exist at the exact same location, and thus experience the same things.  Some particles can really be exactly the same, that is they can exist with all the same properties including location.  But others cannot have all the same properties, which means they cannot exist in the same place.  Thus you cannot have exact copies of these particles.  Your body is
made up of these types of particles, so there can be only one.  You cannot have an exact copy.  You can make a replica that is close, but not exact. 

(Now I am wondering about a hypothetical consciousness that is made of bosons and can exist in the same location with the same properties...  Confusing, but both 'bodies' would experience the same thing so it kind of skirts your question)




That makes perfect sense, i had a feeling it had something to do with time.

I'm glad my theory was destroyed by some solid science.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

Edited by iThink (06/10/11 10:04 PM)

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14593092 - 06/10/11 10:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only example I can think of close to what you posed would be the below stories.....Im sure there is another study that could say the opposite

http://somethinamazing.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-most-fascinating-twin-stories-you.html




It was understood that "exact replica" meant the same down to the quantum level. How could it be an exact replica but not an exact replica?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593099 - 06/10/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well in this case, what if's are incredibly significant. Since physical descriptions continue to be updated, it is more reasonable to think that physical descriptions are incomplete than to say they are complete.

Therefor by saying what if, we are highlighting something that is consistent with our worldview.

We then go further to show that since this view is both consistent and involves less assumptions, it is more reasonable to hold.

When people diss 'what if's it is usually in the case of 'what if XYZ RANDOM STRANGE SITUATION' was the case or 'what if ELABORATE THEORY REGARDING WEIRD POSITS'.

To simply say what if in this case is to highlight reasonable counterfactuals which show that no illusion/reality definition is absolute and thus anything could be illusion.

You seem to have an idea of illusion that you are not sharing, why don't you define illusion in your way?

Also you seem to think my 'theory' is ridiculous. I dont see how it is ridiculous unless you are using your own definition of the word illusion and mixing it with mine. Which is itself quite probable, given that many people apply various connotations to the word 'illusion' which make the claim that 'everything is an illusion' seem quite odd.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14593162 - 06/10/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only example I can think of close to what you posed would be the below stories.....Im sure there is another study that could say the opposite

http://somethinamazing.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-most-fascinating-twin-stories-you.html




It was understood that "exact replica" meant the same down to the quantum level. How could it be an exact replica but not an exact replica?




Your right, I was just posing something as tangible as us humans can get at this time. It is interesting that these people can have extremely similar "selfs" without of any type of collaboration....


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14593168 - 06/10/11 10:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only example I can think of close to what you posed would be the below stories.....Im sure there is another study that could say the opposite

http://somethinamazing.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-most-fascinating-twin-stories-you.html




It was understood that "exact replica" meant the same down to the quantum level. How could it be an exact replica but not an exact replica?





I dont think he knows the concept of indistinguishable particles.

edit - hmmm, after reading that intro, I think it gives a wrong impression.  I will change it tomorrow.  :tongue:

Edited by DieCommie (06/10/11 10:13 PM)

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