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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14589894 - 06/10/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.




How do you define the self?

Your reactions emotionally/mentally/physically to things?

If so I would say they are an outcome of our environment.

Technically though, everything is a part of blob of substance that makes up the universe.

But I think the first one is much more useful.




I am defining the self as experience. The reasoning behind this is that you could in theory create an exact replica of your body. It would behave in the exact same way as you, and from the perspective of an outside observer there would be no difference between the two of you. However, would you somehow start to experience form this new being's perspective? I don't think so.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590025 - 06/10/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You could recreate the personality in another being by building an exact replica of yourself.

Don't think so. No one has done it because the brain is in constant flux and the personality is not simple but very very complex.

IMO the "self" is an illusion created by a feeling produced in the brain which defines us a separate. It is very complex and when taken in whole can be defined as a personality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14590125 - 06/10/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You could recreate the personality in another being by building an exact replica of yourself.

Don't think so. No one has done it because the brain is in constant flux and the personality is not simple but very very complex.

IMO the "self" is an illusion created by a feeling produced in the brain which defines us a separate. It is very complex and when taken in whole can be defined as a personality.




So what if it is very complex? That doesn't mean that theoretically it couldn't be done.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590162 - 06/10/11 11:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Theory is not fact.  And even if it was done there is no way of knowing what the outcome would be.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14590188 - 06/10/11 11:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Theory is not fact.  And even if it was done there is no way of knowing what the outcome would be.




I feel like you are missing the point. The point is not the feasibility or process of the creation of this exact replica. This is a thought experiment where that part is just assumed. The point is if you were to have this exact replica, would you start to experience from this new being's perspective? The answer to that is no in my opinion.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590243 - 06/10/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'd have to say yes but it would be a very complex process to program that many variables into a copy.  It would be like creating a universe but once you did it the results would be the same.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14590283 - 06/10/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'd have to say yes but it would be a very complex process to program that many variables into a copy.  It would be like creating a universe but once you did it the results would be the same.




Sure, but like I said, I am not supporting the potential feasibility of such an undertaking. The point is to show that experience is not only based on the formation of atoms that you are comprised of. It is a specific phenomenon that can only be created once. Once the underlying cause of this specific phenomenon is severed, it is gone for good.

This disproves Nietzsche's idea of Eternal Recurrence, if we discount it already being disproved through math.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590297 - 06/10/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well I'm glad to hear that. Eternal recurrence sucks except for all the sex and pig out meals.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590452 - 06/10/11 12:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.



First you say the self is an illusion, then you say that if another self were created, it wouldn't "truly" be your self. But I thought it was an illusion?

If your self is an illusion, then it couldn't experience anything in the future, but it also is not experiencing anything now, because it is not real.

Your self is not experiencing. Your sense organs are. If sense organs exactly like yours happen to come about at some point in the future, it would be the same as you experiencing. The only reason you would have to disbelieve this would be if you believed in some sort of unique identifier of "you" beyond your sense organs.

I have no idea on what grounds you can claim that the physical configuration of your sense organs can only be created once. I definitely wouldn't say you disproved the eternal recurrence. :lol:

Cyclical models of cosmology are becoming more widespread in astrophysics today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_Cyclic_Cosmology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model


--------------------

Edited by NetDiver (06/10/11 12:53 PM)

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14590577 - 06/10/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

iThink said:

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.



First you say the self is an illusion, then you say that if another self were created, it wouldn't "truly" be your self. But I thought it was an illusion?

If your self is an illusion, then it couldn't experience anything in the future, but it also is not experiencing anything now, because it is not real.

Your self is not experiencing. Your sense organs are. If sense organs exactly like yours happen to come about at some point in the future, it would be the same as you experiencing. The only reason you would have to disbelieve this would be if you believed in some sort of unique identifier of "you" beyond your sense organs.

I have no idea on what grounds you can claim that the physical configuration of your sense organs can only be created once. I definitely wouldn't say you disproved the eternal recurrence. :lol:

Cyclical models of cosmology are becoming more widespread in astrophysics today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_Cyclic_Cosmology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model




Calling the "self" an illusion was a bad way to word it. What I meant by that is that it is a temporary phenomenon of experience that cannot be recreated. Keep in mind that I am defining "self" as your specific phenomenon of experience.

Quote:

Your self is not experiencing. Your sense organs are. If sense organs exactly like yours happen to come about at some point in the future, it would be the same as you experiencing. The only reason you would have to disbelieve this would be if you believed in some sort of unique identifier of "you" beyond your sense organs.




So if an exact replica of you was to be created at the same time that you exist, you believe that you would experience from the perspective of both beings?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590617 - 06/10/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
So if an exact replica of you was to be created at the same time that you exist, you believe that you would experience from the perspective of both beings?



If you were destroyed, and then another body with your memories was re-created, I don't believe you would notice a difference. As to whether or not that would still hold if the copy was created simultaneously... who knows? The philosopher Derek Parfit has some interesting thought experiments relating to that idea.

Again, though, I don't know on what grounds you can claim it can't be recreated. Evidence of that seems entirely lacking to me, given the vast time scales that would be involved. Theoretically I can see no reason why it would be the case.


--------------------

Edited by NetDiver (06/10/11 02:04 PM)

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14590696 - 06/10/11 01:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

iThink said:
So if an exact replica of you was to be created at the same time that you exist, you believe that you would experience from the perspective of both beings?



If you were destroyed, and then another body your memories exactly was re-created, I don't believe you would notice a difference. As to whether or not that would still hold if the copy was created simultaneously... who knows? The philosopher Derek Parfit has some interesting thought experiments relating to that idea.

Again, though, I don't know on what grounds you can claim it can't be recreated. Evidence of that seems entirely lacking to me, given the vast time scales that would be involved. Theoretically I can see no reason why it would be the case.




The reason I claim this is because I don't think you would experience from two perspectives at once if an exact replica of you was made while you lived. This leads me to believe that the subjective feeling of experience cannot be reproduced. If it can't happen while you are alive, why could it happen when you are dead? Sure, to the outside observer there would be zero difference, but subjectively I don't think it would be the same. I realize this struggles to make sense, as I don't understand it myself. This is one of the most mind fucking thoughts I have thought. :lol:

Btw, thanks for the links!


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14590712 - 06/10/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, apparently Parfit thinks that the experience would be the same? That link really didn't say much, and I googled it and still can't find anything.

Edit: All i can find are discussions on this in philosophy forums. Most seem to agree with me. :shrug:

Edit2: Ok I found a better explanation of it. Parfit seems to agree with me if i understand correctly. The only difference is that he claims the subjective phenomenon of experience doesn't really matter, and all that matters is the continuation of someone psychologically continuous with you. http://www.nd.edu/~jspeaks/courses/old/2006-7/20208/parfit-what-matters.html


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Edited by iThink (06/10/11 01:56 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590794 - 06/10/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.


Our body is a system, that this system replaces its parts doesn't mean that we aren't those parts.


Quote:

iThink said:
Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.


The self, according to Wikipedia, is an individual person as the object of his or her own reflective consciousness.

I don't even see why you're asking if an upload of a person's thoughts/memories into a computer would be their self..it would obviously only be a copy of their thoughts/memories, and it wouldn't be conscious.


Quote:

iThink said:
Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.


So, what's your point? If we were to make an exact replica of me from different atoms, then its perceptions would exactly replicate my perceptions..are you suggesting that me not experiencing from my replica's perspective means that a specific formation of atoms that make up my body aren't "me"?


Quote:

iThink said:
So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction.


In what sense do you mean?


Quote:

iThink said:
An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion...


In what sense do you mean it is temporarily maintained, and in what sense is it an illusion?


Quote:

iThink said:
...and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever.


You're speaking of death, right? :death:


Quote:

iThink said:
Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.


Yeah, it would be a replica of my "self"..where is the amazement/bafflement here? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590806 - 06/10/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Parfit seems to agree with me if i understand correctly. The only difference is that he claims the subjective phenomenon of experience doesn't really matter, and all that matters is the continuation of someone psychologically continuous with you. http://www.nd.edu/~jspeaks/courses/old/2006-7/20208/parfit-what-matters.html



Exactly, which is why he disagrees with you. :lol: The question of whether or not it "is you" is unimportant, since there's no real "you" to begin with. If it's psychologically continuous with you, then it might as well be, is the direction that he tends towards.

I have to leave for work soon, but at some point I'll put up some quotes from him I recently read supporting that.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14590815 - 06/10/11 02:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...there's no real "you" to begin with.


What do you mean by this?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14590865 - 06/10/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...there's no real "you" to begin with.


What do you mean by this?




Yea, that doesnt make sense to me either.

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14591337 - 06/10/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Parfit seems to agree with me if i understand correctly. The only difference is that he claims the subjective phenomenon of experience doesn't really matter, and all that matters is the continuation of someone psychologically continuous with you. http://www.nd.edu/~jspeaks/courses/old/2006-7/20208/parfit-what-matters.html



Exactly, which is why he disagrees with you. :lol: The question of whether or not it "is you" is unimportant, since there's no real "you" to begin with. If it's psychologically continuous with you, then it might as well be, is the direction that he tends towards.

I have to leave for work soon, but at some point I'll put up some quotes from him I recently read supporting that.




I disagree that it doesn't matter because i don't really care if something lives in the future if "i" am not the one experiencing it. Why should i care that it is a replica continuing my thoughts if i can't experience it?

What my argument comes down to is the thought that if you are alive and an exact replica of you is built, you will not experience from this new being's perspective. If this is true, how could you experience from a replica in the future?

I can't get much more detailed than this for i am on my phone and it's a bitch to type. I will answer everyone in greater detail when i get back in a few days and have access to a computer.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14591993 - 06/10/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The self would be the many functions of the body functioning and sending information to the brain. The brain controls these different functions of the body and it also produces thoughts, which are tools to solve puzzles.

However, we have a problem of experiencing things and holding onto thoughts and saying "this is me" instead of "this is".


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Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14592494 - 06/10/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.





The problem with claims that the 'self' or even the 'mind' is just an illusion is that... well.. what ISNT an illusion?

How are atoms any less illusory than the self?

The self has qualities. There is a sense in which the self is consistent across a person's life. There is also a sense in which the self is inconsistent.

Just like the physical world, which is in some senses quantised into things that change, and in other senses is one continuous thing that has no parts at all.

If the self is an illusion then there is still a sense that the 'self' is the illuded, the perception that is being 'mistaken'. This perception is itself something, perhaps of more reality than any of the things being percieved (which can only be assigned a quality 'real' with further percieved analysis of consistencies and probable inference)/

The self can be considered in the past sense, as in the collection of perceptions and actions occuring in the past.

The self can also be considered in the future sense, as the potential for perception and action in the future.

The self can further be considered in the present sense, as the moment of consciousness toward which one's finger is figuratively pointed towards when uttering the word 'I' or 'Me'.

The self can be considered in the physical sense, as in the various particles that the body consists of at various moments across time. However this view has problems because it is hard to see where the boundary of the self would lie. It seems like many people who are bathing in 'Physicalism' become stuck in this problem, because atoms are being replaced all the time and it is hard to even say where the  body ends given that all particles are interacting with everything in the universe in seamless flux.

So it is best to define the body, the physical extension of the self, in perceptual terms with regards to sensation and agency of the consciousness.

We thus have a person understood self, which includes all aspects of physical structure that the self associates with its sensations and with which the self associates with its manipulation of the world.

Then there is the other-understood self, which includes all aspects of physical structure that others associate with our sensations and with which others associate with our manipulation of the world.

For example, American indians thought that the spaniards were one body with their horse and armour. However The spaniards knew that their horse was seperate. Furthermore, some might go further to claim that the spaniards are on with their guns because they use the guns. But others would say that the spaniards are not even one with their body's since their body's seem just a tool, like their gun's. Futhermore, it could be said that the body it iself a living entity that is cooperating with the essential 'self' of the spaniard, as the horse is.

The multiplicity of views does not make any of them false, it just makes them not fully objective. They are still subject to reason, however, within a subjective view point. Thus they are not worth throwing away as 'mere illusions'. They have concrete existance within the subjective mind but the definitions for their concrete existance are open to all kinds of subjective opinion.


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