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Offlinepouihi
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Government is not the solution to our problem...
    #14589123 - 06/10/11 07:53 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

... government is the problem.

I've heard this quote in a Biohazard song and there's another trance music that uses it and never knew it's origin, just checked that it came from Ronald Reagan's:

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. From time to time we've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden."

Since I'm not American I'm not so well informed on presidency history, more on present and ex-president.

Did Reagan had this anarchist side? I find it a bit hypocrite that one would have anarchist ideals and yet become president :confused2:


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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi] * 2
    #14589131 - 06/10/11 07:57 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

One of our big political parties likes to pretend they are in favor of less and smaller government.
Relative to the other guys it may be true, but they are not the anarcho-libertarians they purport to be.


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Offlinenice1
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi]
    #14589144 - 06/10/11 08:01 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

My opinion...

Pretty much all problems in our society are caused by 1) Greed 2) Control 3) Resulting inequality
basically human nature.


Best solution I've come up with for us:  Evolution out of human monky desires out of greed and control & into empathic understanding of others.

Best solution for Earth:  We all die of our own doing as we are going full steam into right now with as our established system is set to cause our own extinction.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: Doc_T]
    #14589148 - 06/10/11 08:03 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, I mean in my point of view, if one has anarchist ideals, being on a political party or achieving a political position (and profiting from it) is no way to spread or fight for these ideals :shrug:


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: nice1]
    #14589155 - 06/10/11 08:06 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

agreed.

I'm an utopian anarchist.
I believe that it could work at a very small scale, of people who share the same view (also because it's not my right to force my view onto people who don't share it), but at a large scale the solution will eventually have to be our extinction. I believe nature is taking care of that.


--------------------


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Offlinenice1
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi] * 1
    #14589165 - 06/10/11 08:11 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Problem with government today is they don't control anything more than minor affairs.  The financial / military cronies control the government.  Money corrupts the institution and the military is the strong arm holding a gun to their head?

Didn't the fed reserve recently tell congress that they would have martial law unless they authorised some bail outs or something like that?  I can't remember exactly but thats my opinion of how to runs there and here in Europe and the majority of the world is under or adopted the economic enslavement system.  Simply because it is the best method of being the top monkies they have discovered.

Government / politics is essential a front.  They deal with minor affairs issues, act as a figure of hate / love and are there for us to have the illusion of control by vote :thumbdown:



The proof of all this exists.  Some of the top people from finance / military and intelligence themselves have talked about this stuff and admitted how the real world heirarchy operates.  The real proof is simply to open our eyes and look around us - not at the distraction or the promises of change but the setup of the system and the results of their actions.

Proof comes from what happens after, not what they tell us it should be.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi]
    #14589175 - 06/10/11 08:14 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pouihi said:
I'm an utopian anarchist.
I believe that it could work at a very small scale, of people who share the same view



Hah. Yeah, obviously. No need for government if the population is in agreement of everything.

The essential purpose of a government is to distribute resources over the population according to some logic. This very purpose more or less automatically makes any government unpopular with a part of the population. It's easy enough to use that sentiment to denounce any form of government. The challenge is to come up with something that works better, given the not-so charming properties of human nature that nice1 pointed out.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: nice1]
    #14589180 - 06/10/11 08:18 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

exactly, so how do we end that without becoming extremists??
This got to a point in which it'll only get worse.

Believe me, if I could, I'd get myself an island and make an anarchist community there.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi]
    #14589196 - 06/10/11 08:48 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I do agree with Reagan (although that was already taken from a true anarchist's speech, I don't recall if it was Bakunin) when saying that if one believes that he as human has no ability of self-ruling how can he put that in the hands of another human??

I don't believe that government is a necessary evil, I believe that we as humans have the ability to be more evolved and civilized than most of us think we actually are.

Plus there's a huge difference between what should be the purpose of a government and what it really is.
My country's government over the last 6 years drove it to bankruptcy, our external debt is huge and we had to request IMF's help, so what kind of ape's did we have ruling our country that did nothing better for the citizens and were able to leave us bare naked??


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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi]
    #14589204 - 06/10/11 08:58 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

You guys have fallen into a linguistic trap.
You are talking about government as if it something apart from yourselves.
Government is a concept, not an object; it lives in our minds.
To put it another way- you are the government.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: Doc_T] * 1
    #14589210 - 06/10/11 09:02 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

never in a lifetime.
the government is made by the people that are elected.
I'm most certainly not th government, in fact the more away I can get from them, the better.


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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi]
    #14589224 - 06/10/11 09:11 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

:nonono:


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OfflineDosile Kouki
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi]
    #14589227 - 06/10/11 09:13 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

the thing is though, if government is the problem (i'll leave that issue alone), then what is the solution? what do you propose to put in it's place?

it's not a perfect system, but it is an adequate system, and to be honest it is the only system at current.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi]
    #14589241 - 06/10/11 09:17 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
To put it another way- you are the government.



In a democracy, and in a bit of a roundabout way: yes.

Quote:

pouihi said:
the government is made by the people that are elected.




So maybe you should have elected people who did not promise infinite wealth and early retirement plans.

The following is just an observation; not an allegation to anyone in particular: this is the second huge drawback of democracy: most people lack the sense of reality required to make an informed decision when it comes to elections. The Portuguese government didn't plunge the country into bankruptcy alone, the Portuguese did it all together (just like the Greeks, the Spaniards, the Italians, etc.). That's also part of democracy: accepting part of the responsibility. This is the fundamental problem with democracy in just about every democratic country: when it comes to promises and benefits, everyone rushes to the fore and people can't stress enough that they have a right to this and are entitled to that. But when stuff gets hard, then all of a sudden it's 'the government' that has screwed the people. While that might be true if you're living in Syria or Libya, it's just a lame attitude if you're living in the West. Yes, politicians should only make promises they can actually keep. But the people should give them the opportunity to do so, without expecting promises of utopia while in the same breath condemning the government for not realizing utopia.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: koraks]
    #14589283 - 06/10/11 09:39 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I can't elect someone if I don't find them fit to rule me.

My government at the time could have taken preventive measurements for this not to get to this point.
Instead they spent all the money they could.
They above all should have known the situation the country was in and prevented the situation.
Not have for example the president receiving two retirement funds plus salary as president.


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Offlinenice1
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: Dosile Kouki]
    #14589540 - 06/10/11 11:02 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DosileFlynn said:
it's not a perfect system, but it is an adequate system, and to be honest it is the only system at current.




I'd like to see at least an honest system.

For a start it should be illegal for a country to create its currency at a debt - that would improve equality world wide.
We need much stricter monopoly laws.  Businesses should not be allowed to use all these underhand tactics to rule the market and dominate the 3rd world countries.
We need laws on waste management and "disposable" goods.  Goods need to be manufactured with economy in mind.
There needs to be much more freedom.  We should have the right to choose what we consume - both food and drugs. 

To me theses are just basic things.  A few steps in a better direction.


If I wanted to be all utopian then I'd go with The Venus Project and their resource based economy and removal of money :smile:  Except I don't understand how they maintain security under their system.  Seems to me 1 guy will decide to take over and dictate still.

Everyone moans about communism but when did we ever try it?  The only communism we (humans) ever tried was actually dictatorships.  I don't know much about that system though and I'm not advocating it either - just saying the true concept was never tried.


At the moment we are going full steam into totalitarianism.  Rule by oligarchies.  The divide between rich and poor is ever growing and tantamount to 2 seperate species.  The poor are the slaves and the rich are their parasitic controllers. 

The intend on maintaining this system which means they are going to need population control now or very soon.  It has to be their next step if they keep control under this same system else the system will collapse.

Sadly I don't see how it can change.  The majority of people seem completely oblivious to the point we are at our direction we are headed.  The ones who are aware (myself included) dunno what to do about it other than spread the word and pray for evolution or some external force to slap us into place.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: pouihi] * 1
    #14589557 - 06/10/11 11:12 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pouihi said:
... government is the problem.





no... government is not the problem, the people they 'serve' are the problem




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Offlinenice1
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14589565 - 06/10/11 11:15 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Would have to agree there but still ain't no help to remove the politicians and replace them with more who will probably be the same.  Maybe if you guys can get Ron Paul in but if he ever made it that far you already know the military / finance / intelligence boys who really pull the strings will have him popped for imposing on them.

Audit the fed reserve lol  they'd put a billion billions $ price on his head.  Woops his plane blew up - was an accident. :smirk: 

But hey don't worry folks  Mr. T is your new president  :mrt:  yey


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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: Doc_T] * 1
    #14589574 - 06/10/11 11:18 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
You guys have fallen into a linguistic trap.
You are talking about government as if it something apart from yourselves.
Government is a concept, not an object; it lives in our minds.
To put it another way- you are the government.





The problem is the majority. Most people go on with their daily lives
and by into the american dream and listen to what the MSM has to say.

For me it took 26 years to figure out that its all bullshit. If enough people
actually saw the problems we have through our current government and stop
supporting this economy that is run on war then perhaps we could make steps in the
right direction.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Government is not the solution to our problem... [Re: nice1]
    #14589581 - 06/10/11 11:24 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

nice1 said:
Would have to agree there but still ain't no help to remove the politicians and replace them with more who will probably be the same.  Maybe if you guys can get Ron Paul in but if he ever made it that far you already know the military / finance / intelligence boys who really pull the strings will have him popped for imposing on them.




aside from the conspiratorial rant I'll address the remainder of the statement

the president is like a neutered poodle, it doesnt matter if we get ron paul
or jimmy hoffa in office, congress approves budgets, congress votes on the
bills, all the president does is slap his john hancock on a piece of paper
and it become law. our voting power is with congress, if we vote out the
incumbents and have 500 freshmen congressional reps then it'll be a little
easier for the people to influence that decision making in DC


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