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Offline4896744
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The Illusion of the "Self"
    #14588391 - 06/09/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
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Registered: 05/30/11
Posts: 5,901
Loc: Arrakis
Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14588511 - 06/10/11 12:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.




would the "self" be your place in the universe? maybe it has more to do with time


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14588521 - 06/10/11 12:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How about the illusion of the illusion of the "self"


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Kickle]
    #14588561 - 06/10/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
How about the illusion of the illusion of the "self"




inception :shocked:


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14588712 - 06/10/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think self is an idea. The idea seems the same from one day to the next because the conditions which create the idea are similar from one day to the next.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14588966 - 06/10/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

t is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever




How do you figure? The illusion breaks all the time. It breaks every night you go to sleep and actually it breaks at the end of each moment.

The Buddha was asked how long does a human life last? - one breath


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #14589107 - 06/10/11 05:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think it's an emergent property of brain function. A convenient program for the material survival a  somewhat singular biological entity. I think other animals have this also but in different degree and complexity due to brain function and survival challenges.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14589304 - 06/10/11 07:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.




Well I don't know about you all but all this deep thought has made me kind of tired.  How do you guys keep this up day after day?  Myself, I would just quit...like now.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14589356 - 06/10/11 08:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quiting is not a bad idea.  I'm not done yet however.  I'm very goal oriented. Plus I'm having fun. If I need a brake I just take one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14589664 - 06/10/11 09:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

t is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever




How do you figure? The illusion breaks all the time. It breaks every night you go to sleep and actually it breaks at the end of each moment.

The Buddha was asked how long does a human life last? - one breath




The illusion is somewhat powered down when you go to sleep, but not completely broken. You still dream, and the underlying cause of the illusion of the "self", your brain, is being maintained. However once that underlying cause of the emergent property we call the "self" is severed it can never come back.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14589670 - 06/10/11 10:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it's an emergent property of brain function. A convenient program for the material survival a  somewhat singular biological entity. I think other animals have this also but in different degree and complexity due to brain function and survival challenges.




Now that I have been thinking about this a lot, I'm not so sure that it is even a tool for survival. I think it may just be a by product of other tools for survival.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Rahz]
    #14589689 - 06/10/11 10:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think self is an idea. The idea seems the same from one day to the next because the conditions which create the idea are similar from one day to the next.




I think this is basically true. However, I would call the "self" experience rather than an idea. For example, if you go into intense ego loss on a trip, the idea you experience isn't similar to previous ideas or ideas in the future (discounting other trips that induce ego loss). What is the same however is that you are experiencing from what is basically the same perspective.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14589692 - 06/10/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

would the "self" be your place in the universe? maybe it has more to do with time




I consider the "self" to be experience.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14589743 - 06/10/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quiting is not a bad idea.  I'm not done yet however.  I'm very goal oriented. Plus I'm having fun. If I need a brake I just take one.




I had a goal on Full Tilt Poker to reach a billion play chips.  Only made it to 357 million.  Considering some pay $5 a million for play and now that may be worth more not bad.  Is this the kind of goals and fun you are talking about?

I guess mental gymnastics to me gets kind of boring when you can be watching this



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14589756 - 06/10/11 10:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it's an emergent property of brain function. A convenient program for the material survival a  somewhat singular biological entity. I think other animals have this also but in different degree and complexity due to brain function and survival challenges.




Now that I have been thinking about this a lot, I'm not so sure that it is even a tool for survival. I think it may just be a by product of other tools for survival.





Give me an example.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14589760 - 06/10/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Is this the kind of goals and fun you are talking about?

Among other things. Eventually one may come to suspect that all their goals are game play.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14589800 - 06/10/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it's an emergent property of brain function. A convenient program for the material survival a  somewhat singular biological entity. I think other animals have this also but in different degree and complexity due to brain function and survival challenges.




Now that I have been thinking about this a lot, I'm not so sure that it is even a tool for survival. I think it may just be a by product of other tools for survival.




Give me an example.





By other tools for survival I mean the different components of the brain. This is because I view the "self" to be the phenomenon of experience, and not the specific atoms you are comprised of, the structure of said atoms, or the thoughts and memories you possess. My reasoning behind that is that you can reproduce any or all of these things and still not experience from that replica's perspective.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14589819 - 06/10/11 10:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So you think that operating in a robotic manner would be a more useful survival tool? One of the things that a developed personality has at it's disposal is creativity. When conditions change there is more opportunity to adapt.

Or am I misunderstanding?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14589870 - 06/10/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.




How do you define the self?

Your reactions emotionally/mentally/physically to things?

If so I would say they are an outcome of our environment.

Technically though, everything is a part of blob of substance that makes up the universe.

But I think the first one is much more useful.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14589884 - 06/10/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So you think that operating in a robotic manner would be a more useful survival tool? One of the things that a developed personality has at it's disposal is creativity. When conditions change there is more opportunity to adapt.

Or am I misunderstanding?




I don't consider personality to be the "self". You could recreate the personality in another being by building an exact replica of yourself. However, would you automatically start to experience from both perspectives of your "self" and this new being which was an exact replica of you? I don't think so.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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