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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineShroomyJohn
Stranger
Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 1,085
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: johnm214]
    #14649956 - 06/21/11 06:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
To bring up invasions of other countries is an irrelevent point.  I make a point based on a specific example of what were talking about, and then it is generalized and used against me.  That is the only faulty logic here.






Nonsense, your point was that if it didn't need to be done, then it wouldn't have been done.  How is applying this to germany's invasion of poland any more "general" than what your own language described?  You provided absolutely no qualifiers as to the scoope of the claimed principle of action ergo justification..


The claim itself was supported by nothing other than your bare conclusion that what you say is so, and your reply is simiilarly conclusory in its dismissal without showing how either the counterexample is inapplicable or explaining the basis for your assertion in the first place.




My point was in reference to the new deal and fdr.  Nothing else.  The claim that my claim should be utilized on a broader scale is using words and thoughts that I didn't say or think against me.


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OfflineChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14650044 - 06/21/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
My point was in reference to the new deal and fdr.  Nothing else.  The claim that my claim should be utilized on a broader scale is using words and thoughts that I didn't say or think against me.




You said "it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't necessary", as if it was a universal fact that only necessary things happen.  You still haven't given any other clarification as to what you meant by this even though I've asked you two or three times now.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14650081 - 06/21/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
The defining characteristic of a neocon is advocating for intervention in foreign governments under the guise of "nation-building".


Incorrect. 
Quote:

Zappa does the opposite of that. The defining characteristic of a socialist is advocating thatthe state takecare ofthe populace,which is exactly what you have done throughoutthis thread.



I advocate the state take care of the populace?:flowstone:


--------------------


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OfflineShroomyJohn
Stranger
Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 1,085
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14650109 - 06/21/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What more needs to be said? In reference to FDR and new deal legislation, if it wasn't needed it would never have occurred.  Even when talking about invading other countries,  if it wasn't thought to be needed, it wouldn't have occured.  People in power thought it was needed, so it occurred.  People don't rate Hitler as one of the modern times greatest leaders, and it is obvious in hindsight that nothing that he did was necessary.  On the other hand FDR is recognized as one of the greatest US presidents of all time, and the new deal was needed, so it happened.  Just because you don't see or agree with someone else's need, doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
The defining characteristic of a neocon is advocating for intervention in foreign governments under the guise of "nation-building".


Incorrect. 
Quote:

Zappa does the opposite of that. The defining characteristic of a socialist is advocating thatthe state takecare ofthe populace,which is exactly what you have done throughoutthis thread.



I advocate the state take care of the populace?:flowstone:





Not my words bro,


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14650215 - 06/21/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
What more needs to be said? In reference to FDR and new deal legislation, if it wasn't needed it would never have occurred.  Even when talking about invading other countries,  if it wasn't thought to be needed, it wouldn't have occured. 


  I see you added a phrase.  I highlighted it of you.  I'm gonna let you figure out why it matters.
Quote:

People in power thought it was needed, so it occurred.  People don't rate Hitler as one of the modern times greatest leaders, and it is obvious in hindsight that nothing that he did was necessary.  On the other hand FDR is recognized as one of the greatest US presidents of all time, and the new deal was needed, so it happened.  Just because you don't see or agree with someone else's need, doesn't mean it doesn't exist


  There may be idiots who don't know how much damage he did but there are quite few million who do.  And the fact that New Deal happened and extended the Depression should be of interest.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
The defining characteristic of a neocon is advocating for intervention in foreign governments under the guise of "nation-building".


Incorrect. 
Quote:

Zappa does the opposite of that. The defining characteristic of a socialist is advocating thatthe state takecare ofthe populace,which is exactly what you have done throughoutthis thread.



I advocate the state take care of the populace?:flowstone:





Not my words bro,




Look like yours to me
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14649923#14649923


--------------------


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Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14650218 - 06/21/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
To bring up invasions of other countries is an irrelevent point.  I make a point based on a specific example of what were talking about, and then it is generalized and used against me.  That is the only faulty logic here.






Nonsense, your point was that if it didn't need to be done, then it wouldn't have been done.  How is applying this to germany's invasion of poland any more "general" than what your own language described?  You provided absolutely no qualifiers as to the scoope of the claimed principle of action ergo justification..


The claim itself was supported by nothing other than your bare conclusion that what you say is so, and your reply is simiilarly conclusory in its dismissal without showing how either the counterexample is inapplicable or explaining the basis for your assertion in the first place.




My point was in reference to the new deal and fdr.  Nothing else.  The claim that my claim should be utilized on a broader scale is using words and thoughts that I didn't say or think against me.





If a logic is sound it always works.  This is why the reductio ad absurdum works as a valid counterexample.

You've claimed that your logic only applies to a limited class of premises but yet you've not qualified your claim whatsoever nor explained by what rational the logic may be valid in the situation you propose yet invalid in the case of Poland's invasion.

All this is besides the point though, because you haven't proven your initial conclusion anyways: that 'it' would not have been done if 'it' wasn't necessary


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OfflineAJRenegade
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/19/11
Posts: 67
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: johnm214]
    #14650306 - 06/21/11 07:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
To bring up invasions of other countries is an irrelevent point.  I make a point based on a specific example of what were talking about, and then it is generalized and used against me.  That is the only faulty logic here.






Nonsense, your point was that if it didn't need to be done, then it wouldn't have been done.  How is applying this to germany's invasion of poland any more "general" than what your own language described?  You provided absolutely no qualifiers as to the scoope of the claimed principle of action ergo justification..


The claim itself was supported by nothing other than your bare conclusion that what you say is so, and your reply is simiilarly conclusory in its dismissal without showing how either the counterexample is inapplicable or explaining the basis for your assertion in the first place.




My point was in reference to the new deal and fdr.  Nothing else.  The claim that my claim should be utilized on a broader scale is using words and thoughts that I didn't say or think against me.





If a logic is sound it always works.  This is why the reductio ad absurdum works as a valid counterexample.

You've claimed that your logic only applies to a limited class of premises but yet you've not qualified your claim whatsoever nor explained by what rational the logic may be valid in the situation you propose yet invalid in the case of Poland's invasion.

All this is besides the point though, because you haven't proven your initial conclusion anyways: that 'it' would not have been done if 'it' wasn't necessary



i thought that logic needs to be valid to be true? rather than sound. for example:
P1.Alaska is located below Oregon
P2.Washington is located above Oregon.
Therefore. Washington is located above Alaska

This is sound but not valid.


--------------------
Those who mind don't matter, those who matter don't mind.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
Stranger
Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 1,085
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14650407 - 06/21/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
What more needs to be said? In reference to FDR and new deal legislation, if it wasn't needed it would never have occurred.  Even when talking about invading other countries,  if it wasn't thought to be needed, it wouldn't have occured. 


  I see you added a phrase.  I highlighted it of you.  I'm gonna let you figure out why it matters.
Quote:

People in power thought it was needed, so it occurred.  People don't rate Hitler as one of the modern times greatest leaders, and it is obvious in hindsight that nothing that he did was necessary.  On the other hand FDR is recognized as one of the greatest US presidents of all time, and the new deal was needed, so it happened.  Just because you don't see or agree with someone else's need, doesn't mean it doesn't exist


  There may be idiots who don't know how much damage he did but there are quite few million who do.  And the fact that New Deal happened and extended the Depression should be of interest.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
The defining characteristic of a neocon is advocating for intervention in foreign governments under the guise of "nation-building".


Incorrect. 
Quote:

Zappa does the opposite of that. The defining characteristic of a socialist is advocating thatthe state takecare ofthe populace,which is exactly what you have done throughoutthis thread.



I advocate the state take care of the populace?:flowstone:





Not my words bro,




Look like yours to me
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14649923#14649923




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14649694#14649694


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14650447 - 06/21/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------


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Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: AJRenegade]
    #14650597 - 06/21/11 08:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AJRenegade said:

i thought that logic needs to be valid to be true? rather than sound. for example:
P1.Alaska is located below Oregon
P2.Washington is located above Oregon.
Therefore. Washington is located above Alaska

This is sound but not valid.





I concede the point: I was incorrectly using these terms in their general sense rather than as terms of art in logic/philosophy.


Hmm, that's twice you've proven me wrong in like a few minutes : )


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OfflineShroomyJohn
Stranger
Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 1,085
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14650661 - 06/21/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14649885#14649885

Are you OK?



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14649885#14649885

Are you OK?




I'm fine how are you? I was just making the point that those were not my words, and that I had copy and pasted the quote from a post on that page, which I linked you to


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OfflineChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #14651433 - 06/21/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

AJRenegade said:

i thought that logic needs to be valid to be true? rather than sound. for example:
P1.Alaska is located below Oregon
P2.Washington is located above Oregon.
Therefore. Washington is located above Alaska

This is sound but not valid.





I concede the point: I was incorrectly using these terms in their general sense rather than as terms of art in logic/philosophy.




No, johnm214 is right.  A sound argument is a valid argument whose premises are true.  In this case, we have a (weakly) semantically valid argument based on false premises, so it is not sound, nor true.


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OfflineRevvroom
Stranger
Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 10
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #15390027 - 11/18/11 05:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

the forget the golden rule


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