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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14591228 - 06/10/11 03:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:satansmoking: I'll bet alfalfa makes 430 times more than many people in the world.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
    #14591269 - 06/10/11 03:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:satansmoking: I'll bet alfalfa makes 430 times more than many people in the world.




I'll bet he does too. He'd probably crap himself if he knew how much more than that several people who post here make.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14591584 - 06/10/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There are many people in this situation.  Never having considered that what they are told by so called authority figures or experts is anything but the truth. Never thinking to check things out for themselves.  But we all get to learn this the hard way usually.  If Alfalfa takes this lesson to heart he could do well from now on.  But one has to be creative especially when in a financial hole.  I did it. I was broke and worked at my ideas and didn't expect a miracle and was retired by fifty five.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
    #14591653 - 06/10/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A college degree, even in Toe Flossing, isn't really worthless. It still opens up possibilities for other jobs that only hire people with degrees.

For most of these jobs, it's silly that they require a degree, and it's just another way that "the rich" shoot themselves in the foot, and why they deserve to have to pay for part of Ted the Supervisor's college expenses.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14591846 - 06/10/11 06:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
The average CEO makes over 400 times the average worker.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2005/08/30/1682/average-ceo-makes-430-times/

All you fuckers who think the wealthy deserve 430 times what the average worker makes, please fucking comment.

:uptosomething:




Let's take one of those guys who make $60k/year bolting on wheels to new GM cars and see how well they'd do running GM.  :rolleyes:  Then see who deserves what. 

If the owners of GM didn't feel the CEO's work was worth that much, they wouldn't pay him that much.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14591849 - 06/10/11 06:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
99.999% OF WHAT WEALTHY PEOPLE OWN IS CONTRIVANCE!!! IN OTHER WORDS, HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH BASIC NESSECITY.




So what?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14592586 - 06/10/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
The average CEO makes over 400 times the average worker.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2005/08/30/1682/average-ceo-makes-430-times/

All you fuckers who think the wealthy deserve 430 times what the average worker makes, please fucking comment.

:uptosomething:




Let's take one of those guys who make $60k/year bolting on wheels to new GM cars and see how well they'd do running GM.  :rolleyes:  Then see who deserves what. 

If the owners of GM didn't feel the CEO's work was worth that much, they wouldn't pay him that much.





Didn't all or many of these car companies just about go belly up and need bail outs.  Yeah that's great management.  They deserve a bazillion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
    #14592744 - 06/10/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Didn't all or many of these car companies just about go belly up and need bail outs.  Yeah that's great management.  They deserve a bazillion.




The shareholders of the companies were the ones paying them, not you (unless, of course, you were a shareholder).  Kind of pointless to point fingers retroactively.  What's the relevance of your statement?


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14592781 - 06/10/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Limiting your perspective to just Canada and America is an ad hoc trick used to justify your belief.  Why embrace such a limited perspective?  You could also limit your perspective to the kings of medieval europe and then proclaim that the king of luxemburg is in poverty, since his villa cant match the king of france's.  That is how ridiculous the limiting your perspective to the US and Canada is.

Taking a broad perspective, I would venture that you are among the top 1% of humans that have ever lived (as measured by your access to food/calories, energy/joules and the like).

You are rich by every rational metric there is.





In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth and the top 1% owned 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth.[13]
According to this 2006 study by the Federal Reserve System, from 1989 to 2004, the distribution in the United States had been changing with indications there was a greater concentration of wealth held by the top 10% and top 1% of the population.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth

I hope people read my limiting perspective and hopefully it limits unessecary comments.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



Edited by AlphaFalfa (06/10/11 09:10 PM)


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
    #14592787 - 06/10/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:satansmoking: I'll bet alfalfa makes 430 times more than many people in the world.




I am jobless.

:sad:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14592797 - 06/10/11 09:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
99.999% OF WHAT WEALTHY PEOPLE OWN IS CONTRIVANCE!!! IN OTHER WORDS, HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH BASIC NESSECITY.




So what?



Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Sure sure, its all my fault.




100% your fault and no-one else.

Would you spend 60,000 on a house you hadn't seen?

Would you spend even 5000 on a car you hadn't test driven?

Would you send 20,000 to a Nigerian who promises to send you 10,000,000?

Looking for someone to blame?




Look in the mirror.





Where were you 4 years ago?

Then I would have had a chance to look in the mirror.

ITS TO FUCKING LATE TO DO THAT.

More like "Pay back that debt"


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14593110 - 06/10/11 10:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The first rule of capitalism is "Because We Can."



--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: johnm214]
    #14594181 - 06/11/11 02:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Too many posts on this thread to reply to.  John, you seem to be one of the most intelligent posters, so I'll reply to your post.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
the Government is now favoring the rich over the middle class by giving things like huge tax breaks, for example.



it seems this term is often used dishonestly to frame an ambiguous action in one particular light. i.e. the new tax is represented as a "reduction" and therefore favorable to that class meerly because the prior tax rate was higher.  But how can you assert this action was a favoring of one particulr class without looking at the manner in which the other classes were affected between the two time periods of interest?  It seems a one-sided analysis: with a different time frame you could determine the action to be a "tax increase". 

It seems then that there must be some justification for the particular time period used to determine how a particular class fared, or else the conclusions must be explicitly bounded to that time frame.  Further, any comparison between different classes must examine both classes and how they were affected over a particular time period.  What it seems Falcon has done is simply examine one class and determine that because they paid less of a particular tax that therefore they are unjustly benefited relative to other classes.  Clearly this is unjustified if true, and Falcon needs to back up his conclusion regardless.



At first glance I agreed with you.  But then I realized you cut off a critical part of my reply which comletely changed the meaning of my reply - I began the statement above with "the reason for that (rich getting richer and poor getting poorer) is because..."  Now the time frame is very relevant.  If you cut taxes and give favorable treatment to the rich relative to their previous treatment, that DOES help explain why the rich are getting richer, which was the question that was asked.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So do you want to see an end to things like public education, roads, and clean water?




What does your question have to do with anything?  For your question to be relevant you have to make several presumptions which you've not justified, and therefore the question seems unjustified.



You are correct.  We don't know what will get cut.  Only that a lot more will have to be cut as a result of tax cuts on the wealthy.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It goes both ways.  The filthy rich need to chip in a little for a country that allows them the opportunity to get so rich.



So what?  This seems to be a straw man argument that dishonestly criticizes a position nobody has taken: that the rich do not need to chip in a little.



I wasn't critizing a position nobody has taken.  I was making a statement I hoped everyone would agree with.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It may be my bias, but it really seems to me that the more liberal posters here cannot justify their economic/taxation policies.



You are correct again - it is bias.  :wink:  I provide far more justification for my positions on average than most conservative posters, but not every statement is fully backed up right off the bat.  That often comes out as part of the discussion.  Here is a very short summary of my justification for more progressive taxes:

I don't think we should tax the rich more because I am jealous or because I hate the rich, or because I think they are "evil", or any of the other stupid reasons others have provided above.  Without a strong progressive tax, the middle class would shrink, and the separation of wealth would become greater.  Without a progressive tax, it will become easier for the rich to get richer, and much more difficult for the average person to succeed, as they would have less disposable income.  There is plenty of empirical evidence to suppoort this; countries with a progressive tax systems have a much stronger middle class.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/11/11 04:13 AM)


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14594216 - 06/11/11 03:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Without a strong progressive tax, the middle class would shrink, and the separation of wealth would become greater.  Without a progressive tax, it will become easier for the rich to get richer, and much more difficult for the average person to succeed, as they would have less disposable income.  There is plenty of empirical evidence to suppoort this; countries with a progressive tax systems have a much stronger middle class.




Do you have any other evidence for this?  All you've done so far is point out a correlation which may or may not be true.  Furthermore, is a stronger middle class desirable in a nation?  Is it the government's job to maintain a particular class system?  Is taxation principally a means to this end?  Is it even a means?  If so, is it effective?

Your statements presume an awful lot.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14594259 - 06/11/11 03:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Do you have any other evidence for this?  All you've done so far is point out a correlation which may or may not be true.



Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, but it should be relatively clear that if lower paid workers pay less tax, they keep more.

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Furthermore, is a stronger middle class desirable in a nation?  Is it the government's job to maintain a particular class system?


.
If the majority of the population thinks it is, then it is.  Otherwise, it's not.

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Is taxation principally a means to this end?



There are other means to this end, such as stronger labor laws, but of course taxation is one.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14594394 - 06/11/11 05:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Quote:


ChuangTzu said:
Is it the government's job to maintain a particular class system?




If the majority of the population thinks it is, then it is.  Otherwise, it's not.




Not true, at least in the case of the United States. The government is also a Republic, and what constitutes the proper role of government isn't simply a matter of majority, public opinion.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14594583 - 06/11/11 06:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Didn't all or many of these car companies just about go belly up and need bail outs.  Yeah that's great management.  They deserve a bazillion.




The shareholders of the companies were the ones paying them, not you (unless, of course, you were a shareholder).  Kind of pointless to point fingers retroactively.  What's the relevance of your statement?





That management was not doing a good job of running said company and yet made megabucks for their failures. Seems like banks rewarded failure at times also.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14594596 - 06/11/11 06:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
:satansmoking: I'll bet alfalfa makes 430 times more than many people in the world.




I am jobless.

:sad:





If that was true in a poor country you might starve to death. I'll bet you are far from starving.  If I couldn't get a job I'd put a lawnmower in my trunk and undercut the going rate for landscapers in town and do an amazingly good job and I'd build that business from the ground up.

I did it once so don't ask.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #14595563 - 06/11/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Is it the government's job to maintain a particular class system?



If the majority of the population thinks it is, then it is.  Otherwise, it's not.



Not true, at least in the case of the United States. The government is also a Republic, and what constitutes the proper role of government isn't simply a matter of majority, public opinion.



You are correct in the very short term.  However, if elected officials don't support the majority view, they will soon be voted out.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
    #14595590 - 06/11/11 11:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If that was true in a poor country you might starve to death. I'll bet you are far from starving.



Based on your previous comments, it sounds like your hoping the Government does allow him to die.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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