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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14626391 - 06/17/11 01:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Falcon you just do not get it, majority rule is not the proper role of government in my opinion.



Fixed that for ya.  Why do you think the role of Government is what YOU say it is?  Some people might argue that democracy is a good thing.  Some people might even argue we're waging foreign wars so other countries can have democracy.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
It is not for making the majority comfortable, it is for providing defense and mitigating contracts in my opinion.



Fixed that for ya.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Once again I ask you, if 51% say it is ok to have sex with your wife should the feds line up a public gangbang? And please do not respond with that bullshit, no way that would happen response.



Do you believe rape provides for the general welfare of the United States?  Where do you feel that power is spelled out in the Constitution?  I don't think the Constitution gives Government that power, even if 90% of the people said it is ok.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
I guess these companies run themselves? The CEO, and the board, the employees pay no federal income tax huh? They are ran all by robots whom do not take wages, right?



No one said those people don't pay income taxes; please stop twisting things.  You asked for proof that corporations don't pay much in taxes, and proof was provided.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
And why should the people pay on ore than 106000 thousand?



You said there was no way to pay for Social Security, I showed you just how easy it is.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Maybe you should have worked harder and smarter, you would have gotten more in return, but that is right, you earned Siemens HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS! WOW! You should start a business, but you cannot, they only gave you a 25% raise!



It wasn't nearly enough to start a business in the field I was in.  In fact, it wasn't nearly enough to start a business in most fields.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Cuban saved tips from bartending to start his investments, and he is a billionaire. That does not happen in America though, you said so.



No, I didn't.  Why are you twisting things lying?

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
You still do not get it, you think that the feds should be like an overgrown mom and dad that have a gun at their disposal to et what they want, stop paying taxes and see how long it takes to be killed, just like jaywalking. DO it and refuse the punishment, you die. Just like not paying the IRS, you do not pay, you refuse to be imprisoned for not giving your life away and you DIE!



What are you talking about?  Are you saying I think the Feds should kill people for not paying taxes?  :lame:

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Remember how you felt betrayed and like you got fucked on that 25% raise? When you should have gotten what 59%? Or McDonalds should have paid you $10 an hour? Get a life, you need to earn wealth for yourself, not earn it on the back of anothers life.



I don't understand how making money for Siemens was earning it on the backs of others.  They were earning their money on my back.  I understand I was hired to make money for them, but to reward me with less than 1/10th of 1 percent of what I made them was a little stingy.  My Vice President wasn't involved in my project in any way that I was aware of.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14626433 - 06/17/11 01:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
If someone is not making a livable wage it is usually their fault, and  it is usually one of two things, they are not willing to do the work required or they are not living within their means.



Neither one is true.  It simply means they're making less than about $10/hr.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
It is his fault he dose not make as much money as he thinks he is worth, either because his self worth is grossly inflated, or he has not been willing to make himself a more valuable commodity.


Your 2nd option is a total joke.  I made over $100 million for a company, and you feel I'm not willing to make myself into a valuable commodity.  Companies will never pay more than a "going rate" for any position.  It doesn't matter how much a person is actually worth.  That's how "free" markets work.  The only "going rate" that pays people at or even above their worth is for the top 1% of all positions.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Phred]
    #14626459 - 06/17/11 01:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Look, all of us old folks (me, Seuss, Icelander, zappaisgod, luvdemshrooms) started our working careers doing what used to be called Joe Jobs and I guess today are called burger flipper jobs. These jobs paid either below minimum wage, minimum wage, or a bit more than minimum wage. It appears you are no different. This is normal. Average. Nominal. To be expected. Par for the course.



Not quite.  When adjusting for inflation, minimum wage used to be nearly 50% higher.  That's a HUGE drop from what you had.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14626805 - 06/17/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I havne't been keepingup with this thread.... but have you great minds collectively convinced ShroomeyJohn of anything yet?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: 4896744]
    #14627011 - 06/17/11 08:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
People think that stealing from the rich is ok because they are in a lower position and want more benefit for themselves. That is all there is to it. Whenever someone has an opportunity to benefit themselves they will take it. Especially if said opportunity can be "rationalized" in their mind with some idea like that it is the only "fair" way or something along those lines. Very few people can actually objectively step back and see how good they really have it.





Bingo!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelove2shpongleIRL
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Icelander]
    #14627038 - 06/17/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yup, all to often people compare their standard of living to the top 1%. In my opinion, people just need to take a step back and look at  how the majority in the world lives. When you do that, shit ain't so bad. Sure, it could be better, but we will get there. At least I hope so...


--------------------
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14627074 - 06/17/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Yeah, I'm a student trying to make it through college on my own.  Still haven't seen any suggestions on why that somehow means its ok to pay me 8.00 an hour. I worked 30-35 hrs a week at my last job.  Full time?  What's full time?  No companies let you get 40 a week with benefits any more.  At least not while you're doing the work.  If you are somehow lucky enough to stumble into management then you get the full package, while the people doing the work are excluded.




Because that's what you are worth to the company you work for. Actually, I bet they'd pay less if they could because THAT is what you are worth to them

No-one owes you a high paying job, or an education.

All of which is how it should be.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14627090 - 06/17/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Asking for more handouts is not trying to succeed.  Fucking hell buy a sack and grab your life.





Ha.  You're still trying to say that a raise in minimum wage is a handout?  Please explain how it is a "handout" when I pay more for absolutely everything I eat, drink, or purchase in general than in any modern times?  Why should I be paying 60 dollars to fill up my tank to get to work, when my paychecks were only around 400 after taxes?  I'm spending around15% of my paycheck just to get to work?  Gas prices are inflating the price of everything meaning I am "saving" (if what I am doing is saving) less and less.  Paying 400 a month just on rent and utilities? So out of 800 in income a month, I've already spent 500+ before I even get to eat? Have you noticed how much food costs are increasing?  So take home a month is around 200 dollars if I would do nothing but eat sleep work and school?  Some gig huh.




It's a handout pure and simple.

You are paid X. You want Y. You are not worth Y to your employers. You want them to pay you Y anyway. It would be a handout were they to pay you more than you are worth to them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14627106 - 06/17/11 08:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Likewise, the minimum wage could easily be double in most developed countries and there be no negative consequences to both the society and to those wealthy motherfuckers profits.




Clearly you have no business experience.

When minimum wage goes up, youth unemployment goes up.

When minimum wage goes up, the costs to the business increases.

When the cost to the business increases, prices for the goods they sell increase.

When the prices go up, that negative consequence affects both society and the "wealthy motherfuckers".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: memes]
    #14627129 - 06/17/11 08:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
I havne't been keepingup with this thread.... but have you great minds collectively convinced ShroomeyJohn of anything yet?




You can lead a horse to water...


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14627288 - 06/17/11 09:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

meams said:
I havne't been keepingup with this thread.... but have you great minds collectively convinced ShroomeyJohn of anything yet?




You can lead a horse to water...



This thread is mainly about opinion, very little about fact (other than teaching Pileus what the Constitution actually says).

I think it all boils down to a debate of opinion on whether corporations should spread profits amongst all the people who contributed to earning them, or whether only the top 1% should get to enjoy more than their base salary when the company does well.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #14627371 - 06/17/11 10:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think it all boils down to a debate of opinion on whether corporations should spread profits amongst all the people who contributed to earning them, or whether only the top 1% should get to enjoy more than their base salary when the company does well.




No, this thread isn't about whether corporations should "spread profits", it's about whether you and your lackeys should force them to do it with the barrel of a gun.

:rolleyes:


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #14627372 - 06/17/11 10:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
or whether only the top 1% should get to enjoy more than their base salary when the company does well.



??  I thought workers were paid their wage?  Which was the value they determined was fair for them to receive in exchange for the work they were contracted to do?

When the "company does well" its typically not becuase workers being paid $X/hour suddenly " do more work", its typically because top managers have arranged things in a certain way, or made certain moves, taht allow for the company to be more profitable than usual. 

?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: memes]
    #14627513 - 06/17/11 10:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
When the "company does well" its typically not becuase workers being paid $X/hour suddenly " do more work", its typically because top managers have arranged things in a certain way, or made certain moves, taht allow for the company to be more profitable than usual. 





^ ^ ^
This.

As a side note, observe how those claiming "workers should be paid more when the company does better" only ever consider this a one-way street. They never propose the logical corollary: "workers should be paid less when the company does worse". Anyone with even the least familiarity with business can't fail to notice that many companies often lose money. Many of them lose money for years at a stretch. Yet the rank and file hourly-wage employees get their paychecks on time, full amount, throughout these bad patches. Eventually it becomes necessary to lay some off, but until then, the workers are insulated from the downturn.

I can tell you truly I would quite happily have paid my employees more during the good times if they had agreed to accept less in the bad times. I ended up tens of thousands of dollars poorer in one of my business ventures while my employees (as a group) ended up tens of thousands of dollars richer. And my story is far from unique.





Phred


--------------------


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Phred]
    #14627671 - 06/17/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Why should people that don't careabout being wealthy struggle to live because the people that do don't pay them livable wages?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14627690 - 06/17/11 11:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Why should people that don't careabout being wealthy struggle to live because the people that do don't pay them livable wages?



Why do you persist in this false dichotomy?  Although I suspect that you certainly have no interest in accruing wealth I also suspect that you also have no interest in doing even the minimum necessary to procure, ON YOUR OWN MERITS, a meaningful level of self sufficiency and usefulness.  Nut up.  Be a man.


--------------------


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Offline4896744
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: ShroomyJohn] * 1
    #14627710 - 06/17/11 11:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Why should people that don't careabout being wealthy struggle to live because the people that do don't pay them livable wages?




If you are incapable of providing yourself with basic food, water, and shelter in America then you are fucking retarded. You have to be so dumb that you are no longer useful to society, and should therefore be allowed to die.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Phred]
    #14627711 - 06/17/11 11:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

meams said:
When the "company does well" its typically not becuase workers being paid $X/hour suddenly " do more work", its typically because top managers have arranged things in a certain way, or made certain moves, taht allow for the company to be more profitable than usual. 





^ ^ ^
This.

As a side note, observe how those claiming "workers should be paid more when the company does better" only ever consider this a one-way street. They never propose the logical corollary: "workers should be paid less when the company does worse". Anyone with even the least familiarity with business can't fail to notice that many companies often lose money. Many of them lose money for years at a stretch. Yet the rank and file hourly-wage employees get their paychecks on time, full amount, throughout these bad patches. Eventually it becomes necessary to lay some off, but until then, the workers are insulated from the downturn.

I can tell you truly I would quite happily have paid my employees more during the good times if they had agreed to accept less in the bad times. I ended up tens of thousands of dollars poorer in one of my business ventures while my employees (as a group) ended up tens of thousands of dollars richer. And my story is far from unique.





Phred





So once again its all about you, and since you weeded profiting slightly less you were somehow "poorer" gimme a fucking break.  Since people didn't want to work for shit wages in the "bad times" you retaliate by purposefully not paying them more in the "good times" ?  Pure greed.  The same entitlement issues that people are somehow claiming I have, ha.

Phred your stories have been nice to read, and you've done nothing but help my argument with them. 

Its funny how the only people against what I'm saying are "business men" or as meams, "the economist " looking to amass as much monetary wealth as possible because that is somehow their definition of success.  A lifelong addiction to money that they will steal as much as possible from livelihoods of the masses so they can make a dollar.  Fucking pathetic.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14627742 - 06/17/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Why should people that don't careabout being wealthy struggle to live because the people that do don't pay them livable wages?



Why do you persist in this false dichotomy?  Although I suspect that you certainly have no interest in accruing wealth I also suspect that you also have no interest in doing even the minimum necessary to procure, ON YOUR OWN MERITS, a meaningful level of self sufficiency and usefulness.  Nut up.  Be a man.





Hey bro, you still haven't PM'd me about my studies... afraid that if you find out what I'm actually doing you might not be able to attack my perceived level of intelligence?  Why don't you nut up and not be a greedy bastard?  Why is it me that has to change -- you're the one dying in the next twenty years, where ill still be in the prime of my life.

All you keep questioning is my intelligence or work ethic, real coherent reasoning for why I'm wrong.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14627755 - 06/17/11 11:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Be a fucking man and realize you don't mean shit as an individual. You're trying to differentiate yourself from six billion people by amassing pocket change in the eyes of people that are actually wealthy.  You're a pawn to make others more wealthy, and you got a lil taste of that money now you think you're one of them.

What a joke.  Working your whole life for nobody but yourself and you have nothing to show for it but a pile of soon to be worthless money.


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