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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14610076 - 06/14/11 01:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

holy crap, again with your crazy logic?

if something is not expressly forbidden in the constitution then how can it be unconstitutional?:confused:


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14610092 - 06/14/11 01:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
Quote:

closed veil said:
Quote:

closed veil said:
@PileusSonofGalt- if our gov't had an interest in stopping genocide then why did we not intervene in sierra-leone, tibet, peru, rwanda, somalia, uganda, ethiopia, the philippines, liberia, cambodia, congo, guatemala, yemen, pakistan, libya, indonesia, or laos?
















Is this your question? If so then it is simple, our government has no interest in stopping genocide. None of those countries have a strategic importance to us. Since we are members of NATO however we did go to Kosovo to prevent the genocide from occuring in other countries in Europe.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: broken]
    #14610120 - 06/14/11 02:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
holy crap, again with your crazy logic?

if something is not expressly forbidden in the constitution then how can it be unconstitutional?:confused:




Because the constitution grants the federal government powers that were clearly defined, its role was to follw the constitution as it was written. If you allow the government to take control of and perform functions not listed then it becomes nothing more than a peice of paper with no meaning. You should read some Jefferson if you do not understand this.


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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14610122 - 06/14/11 02:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:

So what did we get from Vietnam? What about Iraq back in 1990? Did we get anything for stopping Japan and Germany? NO we loaned them money to rebuild. Did we get anything for helping in Kosovo? No we aided humans in need at our expense, evil military I tell you, stopping genocide should be a crime!




so u were being sarcastic here?


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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14610138 - 06/14/11 02:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

holy crap, again with your crazy logic?

if something is not expressly forbidden in the constitution then how can it be unconstitutional?:confused:




Because the constitution grants the federal government powers that were clearly defined, its role was to follw the constitution as it was written. If you allow the government to take control of and perform functions not listed then it becomes nothing more than a peice of paper with no meaning. You should read some Jefferson if you do not understand this.





i don't think u understand it. if something is not expressly forbidden in the constitution then how can it be unconstitutional?


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14610145 - 06/14/11 02:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:

So what did we get from Vietnam? What about Iraq back in 1990? Did we get anything for stopping Japan and Germany? NO we loaned them money to rebuild. Did we get anything for helping in Kosovo? No we aided humans in need at our expense, evil military I tell you, stopping genocide should be a crime!




so u were being sarcastic here?




No but I should have said that we helped them so that we would not have to do more work later to stop it in addition too protecting our interests. however we did not exploit them as you had stated we do. You still have not given an example of this happening. Iraq and Afghanistan have both been refuted.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14610157 - 06/14/11 02:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I do understand it, it gives the government a set list of powers, nothing more or less. It does not give them free reign to decide powers at a later date.


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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14610179 - 06/14/11 02:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yeah i'm done with this. it's like talking to a 3 year old. all u say is: "your wrong, i'm right!"


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14610196 - 06/14/11 02:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Is slavery unconstitutional? Yes. Is it stated in the constitution that you cannot own slaves? No.



Ummmm... ever read the 13th amendment???  :shrug:



Yes, it is just that an amendment after the fact.




Wow.  Just wow.  You are just plain... not so bright.  :facepalm:

First of all, the amendments ARE part of the constitution (although I know what you were trying to say).
Second of all, slavery was not unconstituional before the 13th amendment; many Americans owned slaves legally.
Finally, slavery was even referred to in the original constitution.  See "importation of Persons" at Article 1, Section 9, "other persons" at Article 1, Section 2, and "person held to service or labor" at Article 4, Section 2.

Seriously dude, I can't believe I've wasted my time arguing with you.  Please take a course in logic (pretty please?) and read the Constitution.  Until then, I've got to back out.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14610253 - 06/14/11 02:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Is slavery unconstitutional? Yes. Is it stated in the constitution that you cannot own slaves? No.



Ummmm... ever read the 13th amendment???  :shrug:



Yes, it is just that an amendment after the fact.




Wow.  Just wow.  You are just plain... not so bright.  :facepalm:

First of all, the amendments ARE part of the constitution (although I know what you were trying to say).
Second of all, slavery was not unconstitutional before the 13th amendment; many Americans owned slaves legally.
Finally, slavery was even referred to in the original constitution.  See "importation of Persons" at Article 1, Section 9, "other persons" at Article 1, Section 2, and "person held to service or labor" at Article 4, Section 2.

It was unconstitutional because it prevented slave from having the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The fact that slaves were referred to as property and not humans does not negate this fact. I know of this and it states that they can import them until 1880 something, subject to a possible tax though, and that if they are brought in as a slave in a slave state, and they escaped to a non slave state that they are still a slave and would be returned to the owner. Freedom is a human right that you are born with. Our founding fathers knew this, it just did not make sense economically at the time to outlaw the practice, in my opinion that is. No matter the time, or place in our history (human kind, not just the U.S.) has it been just or moral to own slaves. Our constitution was the first government charter to grant freedom to all citizens, yet they made a huge mistake by not outlawing slavery from the start and including all humans in the pursuit part of it. But like you said they did make a provision to end it, just not very quickly.



Seriously dude, I can't believe I've wasted my time arguing with you.  Please take a course in logic (pretty please?)  Until then, I've got to back out.




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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14610542 - 06/14/11 05:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
logic rarely works in the real world spock :spock:





This has to be your best post of all. :braindamage:

People may not use logic in the real world but it works better than anything else we may use to evaluate or act on our situation in the world.

While I agree with some of the things you have said here you have shown yourself to be unable to  debate in good faith and have made yourself look silly by stubbornly refusing to take responsibility for what you say or infer in your posts.

And I seriously doubt you are done in this thread even though you claim it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
    #14610895 - 06/14/11 08:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

you people suck at quoting.  never seen more botched post structures in my life.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: memes]
    #14611177 - 06/14/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What's your point? :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14611182 - 06/14/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Unethical?  Whose ethics?  I say schmucks were born to be fleeced.



A difference between liberals and conservatives?  Between the wild west and civiilized society?




You don't seem to understand the difference between unethical and criminal.  And liberals are far bigger crooks and much less ethical than conservatives
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
it's in direct contrast to the very idea of "the free market".



So what?  Free market isn't law nor is it in the constitution.



What does that have to do with it?  You either believe in the benefits of a free market or you don't.  Of course it isn't in the Constitution.  The Constitution in fact mandates certain interferences in a free market.  Some of them, like the Commerce Clause, have been expanded immensely over the past 2+ centuries.  That has been quite the mistake, in my opinion, and a misreading of the clause, in my opinion.  What is quite clear is that excessive government interference in the market is harmful.  Harmful to workers, harmful to consumers, harmful to business owners and harmful to tax revenues.  All it does is create a parasitic bureaucracy that exists almost entirely for the sole purpose of perpetuating itself.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14611282 - 06/14/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Article one, Section eight, "Powers of Congress" states that the Congress shall have the power to provide for the general welfare of the United States.




Sure, but are you aware of what this actually means?  Read the case law regarding this clause.  It only allows the federal government to spend tax money on stuff that regards the national welfare.  For a long time, it was rightly interpreted to mean only stuff related to one of the other enumerated powers.  See United States v. Butler and Bailey v. Drexel Furniture Co., for example.

Quote:


They can do exactly what you specifically said they can't.




Which is anything?  Wrong.  See the 10th amendment.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14611345 - 06/14/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I meant exactly what I said, but I'll also agree with what you thought I meant to say.


 

So your claim was referring to the federal government rather than individual citizens or state governments? Wow. Just..... wow. No wonder you make the ridiculous claims you do. You have the fundamental idea of American government exactly 180 degrees out of whack.

The constitution of the United States of America limits federal government power. It makes it very clear that the only functions it authorizes the federal government to perform are the specifically listed functions. This is the meaning of the term "enumerated". In other words, the feds may do only what the Constitution says they may do. If the Constitution does not list a particular function the feds may do, then they may not do it, no matter how many people may want them to. By definition, if the feds choose to do such a function they are acting unconstitutionally.

The fact that the feds have ignored this restriction and gotten away with involving themselves in many areas not enumerated in the Constitution for years (or decades, in most cases) does not mean they are acting constitutionally. Every action of, for example, the Department of Energy, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Department of Education and many more is unconstitutional.

Quote:

Please prove me as wrong as wrong can be.




Sure. Read this.






Phred


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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
    #14611603 - 06/14/11 11:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

well,  i'm done arguing with PileusSonofGalt. i can't imagine i'll have anything else to add to this thread. i've repeated myself so many times and users con't to twist and interpret what i'm saying, to fit their model of what they think my ideas are, instead of taking it at face value. it is also very rude to simply dismiss a point someone makes by (paraphrasing here) saying no, or your wrong. and his miss use of logic is painfully bad. and if he really knew anything about logic, he would know how poorly logic works in the real world.

here is a great example of logic right from my text book for the class all those years ago: [paraphrasing again, i don't have the book anymore but sure remember this] polls show that madonna is the most famous american, amongst another americans. (the book is from the 80's) therefor madonna will be the next president of the USA.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14611705 - 06/14/11 11:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
here is a great example of logic right from my text book for the class all those years ago: [paraphrasing again, i don't have the book anymore but sure remember this] polls show that madonna is the most famous american, amongst another americans. (the book is from the 80's) therefor madonna will be the next president of the USA.




That sounds like it was an example of flawed logic.  :tongue:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14611719 - 06/14/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I knew it. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14611761 - 06/14/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

closed veil said:
here is a great example of logic right from my text book for the class all those years ago: [paraphrasing again, i don't have the book anymore but sure remember this] polls show that madonna is the most famous american, amongst another americans. (the book is from the 80's) therefor madonna will be the next president of the USA.




That sounds like it was an example of flawed logic.  :tongue:




yes. it's an example of how logic often does not work in the real world.


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