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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
#14606413 - 06/13/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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PileusSonofGalt said: I never want to have that much money, so no, there is no basis of calling me jealous.
then what's the basis of saying others shouldnt have that much or as you're doing, complaining about others having so much
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There shouldn't be crumbling roads. There shouldn't be budgets that cut hundreds of millions of dollars from education. I shouldn't have to worry weather my water is treated properly, and I shouldn't have to worry that the car that I'm buying is going to be a dud.
so what are you saying, you want a bigger nanny state, are you telling us the wealthy whom are already taxed a a far higher rate than we are should be paying for all this for you to use... maybe they should buy you that new car instead of you having to earn the money yourself, want then to send it to the mechanic because you didnt maintain it
maybe you should learn how to inspect a car, change the oil and the blinker fluid, rotate the muffler bearings and all that stuff so you dont buy a piece of junk... then that's one less worry
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If these multi-billionaires, and large multi-millionaires would allow this by funding the same programs the government would, I would have no issue with it. We are all American's, and we are all human.
well who do you think is funding it? it's certainly not the lower earning tax bracket
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
#14606432 - 06/13/11 01:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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ShroomyJohn said: But... There has never been a lawyer that made a mistake before either? I find it verrryyyyy hard to believe that all those people getting foreclosed on didn't have somebody in the business or a lawyer to look it over. You'd be naive to ever believe that.
When a lawyer makes a mistake, you sue them for misrepresentation, you don't create a federal agency to make the lawyer's job easier.
In the case being discussed, a lawyer wasn't even necessary to figure out that the borrowers' rates would go up. All they had to do was ask the loan officer, "will my rates increase if I miss a payment?" Furthermore, there is absolutely no way any competent individual, under the advice of a lawyer or not, would sign a contract for an adjustable rate mortgage believing it was a fixed rate mortgage.
I believe these people knew what they were doing and were aware of the risks, but took the loans anyway because they were either the only ones they could get (in which case they should probably have re-evaluated their decision to buy a home at that time) or because the initial low rates looked good to them and dollar signs won out over their sense of judgment. When they gambled and lost, they tried to pass the blame to the banks or to the federal government. Blame anyone except the person who walked into the bank and asked for a loan they weren't sure they could pay back...
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
#14606520 - 06/13/11 02:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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closed veil said: i think it is unethical to loan someone money with an interest rate beyond what they can afford!!!!!!!! why don't you tell me why you don't believe this rather then asking me the same thing two other users have asked?
My question was rhetorical and meant to point out an inconsistency in your belief that making a risky loan is unethical. It can't be unethical because the bank doesn't know what I can afford and it doesn't know what kind of risk I'm willing to take. All the bank can do is assess its risk and put a price on the loan that matches the risk it perceives. The bank then offers the loan to me with terms it is comfortable with and asks me if I'm comfortable with them too. I agree or I disagree and go to another bank or I re-assess my ability to purchase a home at this time. If I agree, then we are two willing parties to a mutually beneficial contract. The bank gets interest and I get a home. We are both also at risk but we each make our own assessment of costs vs. benefits when entering into the contract and only sign it when we believe it is to our benefit. There is nothing unethical about this from either side.
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who approves your loan is a person, not a bank. a bank is a building, a business. so a "bank" doesn't really know anything does it? your post makes a bank sound like a conscious being, who is aware of your personal financial situation.
Don't be silly. A bank is an organization. The organization is made up of people who make decisions collectively on behalf of the bank.
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i realize that a banks loses money when someone defaults on a loan. perhaps there is a larger plot going on, a plot to eliminate the middle-class, and return to a 2 class system of workers and owners. any good investor will tell u: 'you need to spend money to make money' the banks are run by greedy men, who always want more money, and do not care if u are broke and homeless. in fact, as you just pointed out, they will lose money to make you homeless. this is, in my opinion, a seriously lack of ethics, which, sadly, seems to extend to some shroomery users. 
Do you believe that the thousands of banks in the US and the 10s of thousands of banks in the world are colluding with each other to "eliminate the middle class"? If so, I suggest you head over to the conspiracy forum.
Considering the middle class makes up the bulk of business for retail banks, it would seem completely counter to their interests to eliminate their entire customer base, would it not?
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broken
455 member(s)



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14606532 - 06/13/11 02:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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@ShroomyJohn- Most ppl sign a mortgage without seeking a lawyers council. it is not wise, but there are a lot of stupid ppl who make a lot of stupid mistakes. like flaming someone in a room when they know they will get a warning or banned. or my ex, who filed two court case's against me with out hiring a lawyer.
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ShroomyJohn
Stranger
Registered: 09/13/10
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14606574 - 06/13/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
well who do you think is funding it? it's certainly not the lower earning tax bracket
There is still plenty of tax being taken in from people who pay no income tax.
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broken
455 member(s)



Registered: 09/07/10
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Loc: fuckyeah!
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14606577 - 06/13/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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your question is not rhetorical, it's repetitive, it has been asked before. there is nothing inconsistent with my posts, we just have different ethics.
i'm not being silly, i'm pointing an point out "an inconsistency in your belief"
the conspiracy forum is full of followers, not free thinkers. just because i may agree with some of their beliefs, doesn't mean i want to hang out with them.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
#14606701 - 06/13/11 02:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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closed veil said: the conspiracy forum is full of followers, not free thinkers. just because i may agree with some of their beliefs, doesn't mean i want to hang out with them.
It's the proper forum for unsubstantiated beliefs that involve conspiracies.
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broken
455 member(s)



Registered: 09/07/10
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14606755 - 06/13/11 02:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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plenty of conspiracy talk in this thread in the pube....Lady Gaga Thread
the conversation has evolved from the OP, u just don't like were i'm taking the conversation.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
#14606787 - 06/13/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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closed veil said: plenty of conspiracy talk in this thread in the pube....Lady Gaga Thread
the conversation has evolved from the OP, u just don't like were i'm taking the conversation.
So go there. Stay there.
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broken
455 member(s)



Registered: 09/07/10
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14606834 - 06/13/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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say that to my face at a gathering
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
#14606885 - 06/13/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cut the crap. Your threats are meaningless. Were you to find Zappa your physical superior you'd just play it off as a joke.
And I'd have to watch you get some kick ass.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
#14607127 - 06/13/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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u just don't like were i'm taking the conversation.
It's not that I don't like it, it's that you haven't presented any evidence for your claims. Do you want to start now, or do you want to take your claims to the proper forum?
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
#14607155 - 06/13/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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closed veil said:
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ChuangTzu said:
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closed veil said: i think it's unethical to borrow money to someone when u know they will not be able to pay u back at the interest rate u intend to charge. that's what the mafia does.
How does the bank know if I can pay it back or not? They don't. The bank also doesn't know what level of risk I'm willing to take on. When I sign a high-risk contract like that, it's assumed that I am comfortable with that. How is it unethical to allow me to enter a contract which I am willing to enter?
i don't know how many times i will have to post this, this has to be the 3rd time...i think it is unethical to loan someone money with an interest rate beyond what they can afford!!!!!!!! why don't you tell me why you don't believe this rather then asking me the same thing two other users have asked?
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ChuangTzu said: Keep in mind that the bank is also taking a lot of risk in that situation. The bank loses when I default on a mortgage. It's actually in their interest for me to succeed in paying back the loan which is exactly the opposite of what some of you seem to be claiming.
who approves your loan is a person, not a bank. a bank is a building, a business. so a "bank" doesn't really know anything does it? your post makes a bank sound like a conscious being, who is aware of your personal financial situation.
i realize that a banks loses money when someone defaults on a loan. perhaps there is a larger plot going on, a plot to eliminate the middle-class, and return to a 2 class system of workers and owners. any good investor will tell u: 'you need to spend money to make money' the banks are run by greedy men, who always want more money, and do not care if u are broke and homeless. in fact, as you just pointed out, they will lose money to make you homeless. this is, in my opinion, a seriously lack of ethics, which, sadly, seems to extend to some shroomery users. 
Whoa whoa whoa bro. I think you're tyically a decent poster. Certainly our ideas don't agree most of the time, but I respect your opinion, since typically you can debate like a human. But with this last post you have gone WAY off the handle. Let me show you why. Please listen to it, instead of reading it filled with emotion. I want you to realize how rediculous you sounded.
First, look at your response to the FIRST quote by ChuangTzu. You said you think its unethical to loan someone money w/ an interewst rate beyond waht they can afford, adn you directly accused ChangTzu of avoiding your question.
But if you look at the quote you're responding to, it DIRECTLY addresses what you're asking. "How is it unethical to allow me to enter a contract which I am willing to enter?" Obviously I agree, since the terms of the contract are laid out before both parties prior to signing.
The second quote you responded to completely ignores the fact that his statement DIRECTLY addresses your concerns. Remember, you are concerned that bankers are tricking people into taking on loans they can not afford. He is stating that banks wouldn't do this, because banks lose money from defaulted mortgages.
How do you respond? By implying that he was referring to "banks" as some automaton robot building that had a super computer or some garbage. CLEARLY he was referring to the Bank stakeholders (employees, owners, etc) who generally makee the decisions and suffer from their consqeuences.
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they will lose money to make you homeless. this is, in my opinion, a seriously lack of ethics, which, sadly, seems to extend to some shroomery users.
that you think that banks would rather lose money to get people out of their homes, your'e crazy.
banks make their money from holding assets at a low interest rate, while loaning assets at a high interest rate. the key there is to exploit the differential in interest rates between what they hold for us, and what they loan to us. it is in there DIRECT economic interest for two things to be happening: - For their account holders to have money in their accounts (earning interst at a low %). - For people to be requesting loans (at a high %).
They need money in the accounts because without it, the bank has no capital to lend, and they want people borrowing so that they're not just holding a bunch of money taht's not earning revenue sfor them (idle money [to an extent, safety cusions are required] has no point from a business perspective)
See what I'm saying?
You were just being ignorant in that post. SO shape up man, use logic, and play with the big kids who make sense.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: memes]
#14607286 - 06/13/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why make sense when you can use such fascinating logic.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
#14607386 - 06/13/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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high when i wrote it? maybe.
makes sense? when read correctly
able to be read correctly? mabye.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: memes]
#14607406 - 06/13/11 04:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You know I wasn't talking about you, right?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PileusSonofGalt
PhungiPharmer


Registered: 05/19/11
Posts: 240
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken] 1
#14607528 - 06/13/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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closed veil said: u have not addressed a single point i made, rather, u twist my words and twist the meaning of what i've said. so why should i make further explanations of my beliefs when u avoid every question and point i make, and instead twist my words to mean something completely different from what i said?
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closed veil said: majority votes wins, if u don't vote your opinion means nothing in a democracy. and u ppl keep saying democracy. u do realize the USA is a republic and not a democracy right?
If you do not vote you do not have an opinion huh? So then a person convicted of felony marijuana possesion has no opinion? A person that was convicted of LSD poseesion has no right to an opinion of how things are done? Yes we are a constitutional republic, with STRONG democratic traditions, even democratic elections. Maybe you missed those. u have not replied to this at all. You are wrong about about a non voting persons opinion not counting, historicaly you need only one third of the population to bring about a revolution, that means that even if if 65% of the eligible population turned out, which has not happened in about 100 years or so, that our opinion would not only matter, but that we would be able to change our political structure. So how does my opinion not matter?
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PileusSonofGalt said: ...Would you trade the life of your most beloved for one million lives of people whom you do not know or have ever met? I would hope not, because if so then you have no morals worth speaking of.
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closed veil said: how does what u just asked me apply in anyway to the quotes above it? u said money was more important to u then lives. don't back down, make a point don't change the subject!
You do not understand that money is only an extension of ones own life, you spend money to be with your beloved, to keep them with you and care for them, so would you trade your money for another humans life that you do not know? If so then you would be sacrificing your beloved for the benefit of another. have have not replied to this at all
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closed veil said: i think it's unethical to borrow money to someone when u know they will not be able to pay u back at the interest rate u intend to charge. that's what the mafia does.
You seem to think that ethics are arbitrary, some things are always unethical, the time, place, and settings are irrelivant.
if u don't agree that's fine. we can't all have the same opinions, ethics and feelings.
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PileusSonofGalt said: First off it is loan not borrow money to someone, second no one will ever force you to go into a bank or to a loan shark and ask for money. You make the choice to do so, no one else.
I was not refering to your post about people being "fooled" by a bank, I was refering to your post about borrowing money to someone at such a high rate that they could not pay it back, you know the one I asked you to clarify that you chose not too.
i said fooled, you said forced. you do know the difference right? your replies seem to indicated that u don't know the difference.
fooled 1. To deceive or trick; dupe: 2. To confound or prove wrong; surprise, especially pleasantly
forced 1. done because of force; compulsory 2. false or unnatural
I do know the difference, I have the complete Oxford dictionary set, and I read it quite often, you check out the price on that, I think it will upset you.
the two words have to very different meanings and should not be used interchangeably as u have done.
there is a word for someone who fools ppl out of money, con-man. the banks may have done it legally, but it doesn't make it any less of a con job, or make it ethical.
I am glad you did not get banned, your lack of intelligence and ethics amuses me.
barley avoid the ban. only cuz i'm usually a good boy.
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closed veil said: the banks fooled stupid ppl into signing up for a mortgage that they could not afford. don't u think it's unethical to fool ppl out of their money?
They did not fool anyone, they gave them an option of either taking a loan that they wanted or not, it is up to the individual to decide wether or not they could afford it. The bank would not have loaned the money if they did not think they could pay it back, that is how they earn profit, and profit is what every business is in it for. Haters gonna hate though. If you went and got a loan for a brand new AMG Benz that at the time you could afford, and you lost your job and missed the payments would that make them wrong and unethical for taking the property that they own back from you? If you bought into the hype that home prices would only go up in the U.S. then you were a victim of the government, not the bank.
Edited by PileusSonofGalt (06/13/11 06:43 PM)
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memes
Blessed



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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Icelander]
#14607549 - 06/13/11 05:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: You know I wasn't talking about you, right?
no, i didnt know that. lol i thought u were talking about me.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
#14607570 - 06/13/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The bank would not have loaned the money if they did not think they could pay it back,
Is that really fully true or were the banks willing to make risky loans knowing the govt would bail them out if the loans went south? Was it really the Govt and not the banks who were behind all these weak loans?
Doesn't change the facts of each borrower being self responsible. Just sayin'
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PileusSonofGalt
PhungiPharmer


Registered: 05/19/11
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14607608 - 06/13/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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ChuangTzu said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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PileusSonofGalt said: So you think the proper role of government is up to the majority of people living in a said boundry. That is a very dangerous and slippery slope.
That's democracy. Other countries like China agree with your position.
Whatever you want to call our system of government, that is not how it works. The powers of the federal government are limited and enumerated to protect against a tyranny of the majority.
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I worked in a very busy McDonald's, which I stated above. The margins were greater than 20%.
Can you substantiate this in any way? As far as I can tell, the profits of the McDonalds corporation itself are around 20%, but the franchises (the people actually paying you) make much less. McDonalds franchises are privately owned.
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PileusSonofGalt said: Who defines "inalienable rights"? There's a lot of differnt opinions on this.
The constitution defines some of them. A thousand years of common law tradition define some others. The judicial system is there to settle differences in opinion on this. Welcome to 7th grade social studies class.
FAlco stated that different opinions are out there on what an inalienable right is, I simply jacked up quoting him and somehow got my quote mixed up with his statement. Sorry fo rthe mistake, I do not want anyone to think that I do not know what they are.
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