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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: broken]
    #14604132 - 06/13/11 01:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
the banks fooled stupid ppl into signing up for a mortgage that they could not afford. don't u think it's unethical to fool ppl out of their money?





stupid people signed contracts without reading or understanding the terms

mom always said 'read and understand before you sign'

it's something pretty much everyone knows, in fact lenders go over the terms
with people before they sign, inform them of the interest rates, inform them
of their payments, it's up to the borrower to ask questions. o one's arm gets
twisted to sign these contracts

"well what is a variable rate and what is the rate based on?"


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14604139 - 06/13/11 01:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I would want a capitalist society that is based on free will and personal property rights. Ayn Rands model of capitalism would be just fine. I have stated on numerous occasions that you need government, and taxes, just not in the current form we have. And you would not be able to do whatever you want to make a dollar, you would however be held responsible for any actions taken that harmed another due to your actions directly. Instead of paying a fine to the government you would pay that person directly based upon the damages you caused.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14604146 - 06/13/11 01:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

And no mob rule does not make up a proper government. If 51% want to have sex with your wife it does not make it ok in a capitalist society, in our present society it does.


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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14604154 - 06/13/11 01:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

this seems to boil down to ethics, Pris. as u said something earlier something like: "it's all about how you feel" well, not everyone ethics are the same. i feel what they did was unethical, u clearly do not. so how about we just agree to disagree on this one.

BTW- U don't happen to have any used Ron Paul books to trade do u? :smirk:


--------------------
:willynilly:


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14604172 - 06/13/11 01:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
You're confusing jealousy with reality.  What's someone going to do with 10 billion dollars, or even 500 million dollars, or even 100 million dollars?  100 million dollars would be enough to last your family 100 years without a single decedent ever having to lift a finger.  some life.




no... the reality is that their money is not my money, what do I care if
their great grandchildren will never have to work.




So you believe in class systems.  Pretty sure that was what America was founded to get away from.

All men are created equal.  Unless you're great grandpa was a billionaire... Then you are automatically better than everybody else.  I think thats how the Declaration of Independence went, right?


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14604179 - 06/13/11 01:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How can you say this? In the history of man we have never had a truly free society, not evenin America, we came close, but did not succeed. Please enlighten me as to what is immoral about being free?


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14604184 - 06/13/11 01:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
And no mob rule does not make up a proper government. If 51% want to have sex with your wife it does not make it ok in a capitalist society, in our present society it does.





You're mixing economics terms with political ideas here.  Lay off the bottle dude.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14604189 - 06/13/11 01:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
How can you say this? In the history of man we have never had a truly free society, not evenin America, we came close, but did not succeed. Please enlighten me as to what is immoral about being free?




There is a difference between social freedom and economic freedom.  See above.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14604198 - 06/13/11 01:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Either your "initial investment" was income that you haven't yet paid taxes on (maybe stock options, for example), or you're getting screwed by your lack of tax knowledge.




I'm obviously not getting screwed because my accountant say my tax
liability is under $25k, I know the difference between profit and capital, the IRS doesnt acknowledge that while I did have capital gains the bulk of my money was reinvested in places other than stocks and even with stop trades all they looked at were the sales, not the reinvestment and other purchases, both of your hypotheses are incorrect



In your original post, you said they won't let you deduct "the initial investment", which was incorrect.  Now it sounds like you're saying they won't let you deduct money you've reinvested, which is correct.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14604215 - 06/13/11 02:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I see, so it's all about what you consider, did you consider that no one had to sign a contract that they felt would screw them, by signing they agreed to the terms. it's their choice and they screw themselves

if I buy a property I have the choice of going through a mortgate lender
that can hit me with a variable rate or a fixed rate mortgage, I'd choose
the fixed rate, I also have the choice of using my bank for the loan and
getting a fixed rate, if someoen else believes they need to own that home
so badly that they'll sign the contracts without understanding the terms
then they have done to themselves what's being done, where's the unethical
part on the side of the lender, their goal is to make money, it's your
obligation to understand what you're signing




Except many of the times, like somebody else stated, you can read a contract three times over and still not understand all the shit thats in it.  Why should you need to hire somebody else and pay more money to understand an overcomplicated contract that is meant to fuck you over if you make a mistake ?




Will you answer now that you dont have to scroll up half a page?
Will you answer my question about explaining the process of growing a mushroom from start to finish wiothout using any words, like primordia, mycelium, hypheal knot, fruiting chamber, substrate, colonization, or pinning? We may take these terms


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14604218 - 06/13/11 02:01 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
People voted for Hitler and they agreed with him and his views, did this make it correct no.




No, Hitler wasn't elected, and after he was appointed, he never stood for election.



Quote:

closed veil said:
i believe i made my stance on capitalism very clear in my earlier post.




Your views weren't what were asked for, but rather, you were asked to explain what was wrong with capitalism.  If you claim your previous answer suffices, then explain how any of those claims are true and what you are comparing capitalism to.  Its difficult to see how you could determine it oppresses the poor finanicall, for example, when no refrence was provided to any other system.  Without having any stated basis for determining what is due to the poor or rich or whomever, how can you determine that any one of these is getting cheated?



Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Capitalism a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

So what is wrong with the model of capitalism?





There is nothing wrong with the MODEL of capitalism. There is plenty wrong when purely capitalistic theory moves out of a book and into a real economy.





Your bare declarations are not helpful.  You've sad all this before, back it up- its obvious there's doubt.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14604229 - 06/13/11 02:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
And no mob rule does not make up a proper government. If 51% want to have sex with your wife it does not make it ok in a capitalist society, in our present society it does.





You're mixing economics terms with political ideas here.  Lay off the bottle dude.



I think Pileus meant to reply to me.

I explained earlier that if a majority of people are in favor of the death penalty, then the Government's role is to enforce a death penalty, whether it's right or not.  You tend to use absolutely ridiculous examples to try and prove your points.  51% of the population will never think it's ok to rape someone else's wife.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: johnm214]
    #14604244 - 06/13/11 02:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:


Your bare declarations are not helpful.  You've sad all this before, back it up- its obvious there's doubt.




You back up your declaration that my declaration is not helpful.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14604249 - 06/13/11 02:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
if they paid you and everyone else what hey thought they were worth they would be broke and none of you would have made anything.



You don't get the concept of "what you're worth".  If I'm on a team of 20 at McDonald's, and we sell $2,000 worth of food an hour (which I used to do when I worked at my first job at McDonalds), what am I "worth"?  I realize that the business owners get to make a nice profit.  But we were making an average of $3.50/hr (the minimum wage at the time was $3.35), which cost McDonald's about $70/hr.  We worked our asses off to sell that much food, it was one of the hardest jobs I ever had.  If you think we were only worth $3.50/hr, then you're a conservative.  McDonalds could have easily paid us $10/hr, and still made a huge profit.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
So are you going to answer my question about what the proper role of government is?



I already did.  It was my first statement in this post.



I want to know what you think the proper role is. And no they could not have done so, a restaurant makes about 5% on the dollar in sales, so if you are selling $2000 grand an hour that equals out to $100, if they paid you and your teammates an extra $6.50 an hour they would operate at a net less of $30 an hour. How would they stay open and continue to pay you if they are losing $30 an hour, and this does not include equipment costs, unemployment insurance, R&D costs, property or sales taxes, let alone upgrades.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14604253 - 06/13/11 02:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
I see, so it's all about what you consider, did you consider that no one had to sign a contract that they felt would screw them, by signing they agreed to the terms. it's their choice and they screw themselves

if I buy a property I have the choice of going through a mortgate lender
that can hit me with a variable rate or a fixed rate mortgage, I'd choose
the fixed rate, I also have the choice of using my bank for the loan and
getting a fixed rate, if someoen else believes they need to own that home
so badly that they'll sign the contracts without understanding the terms
then they have done to themselves what's being done, where's the unethical
part on the side of the lender, their goal is to make money, it's your
obligation to understand what you're signing




Except many of the times, like somebody else stated, you can read a contract three times over and still not understand all the shit thats in it.  Why should you need to hire somebody else and pay more money to understand an overcomplicated contract that is meant to fuck you over if you make a mistake ?




Will you answer now that you dont have to scroll up half a page?
Will you answer my question about explaining the process of growing a mushroom from start to finish wiothout using any words, like primordia, mycelium, hypheal knot, fruiting chamber, substrate, colonization, or pinning? We may take these terms





You still haven't answered my question of why it is made to purposefully be confusing?  Why can't they just be up front with exactly what you're signing to?  I don't feel bad that for the people that signed the contract, but I feel bad that they signed the contract without a real idea of what they are signing, because of the purposefully misleading and confusing contract they were required to sign.

Anything for a dollar.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14604254 - 06/13/11 02:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
And no mob rule does not make up a proper government. If 51% want to have sex with your wife it does not make it ok in a capitalist society, in our present society it does.





You're mixing economics terms with political ideas here.  Lay off the bottle dude.




How am I mixing economic terms with political ideas?


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14604258 - 06/13/11 02:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:

I want to know what you think the proper role is. And no they could not have done so, a restaurant makes about 5% on the dollar in sales, so if you are selling $2000 grand an hour that equals out to $100, if they paid you and your teammates an extra $6.50 an hour they would operate at a net less of $30 an hour. How would they stay open and continue to pay you if they are losing $30 an hour, and this does not include equipment costs, unemployment insurance, R&D costs, property or sales taxes, let alone upgrades.





Maybe in an actual restaurant it is 5% there is no way McD's is running at 5% profit.


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OfflineShroomyJohn
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14604262 - 06/13/11 02:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
And no mob rule does not make up a proper government. If 51% want to have sex with your wife it does not make it ok in a capitalist society, in our present society it does.





You're mixing economics terms with political ideas here.  Lay off the bottle dude.




How am I mixing economic terms with political ideas?





Because for some reason you think that being capitalist means you aren't a democracy.  If 51% of people want to vote on something in a capitalistic society, they will vote on it and win.


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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: ShroomyJohn]
    #14604266 - 06/13/11 02:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomyJohn said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
How can you say this? In the history of man we have never had a truly free society, not evenin America, we came close, but did not succeed. Please enlighten me as to what is immoral about being free?




There is a difference between social freedom and economic freedom.  See above.




That would be incorrect, in a capitalist society, they are one and the same. If you have freedom then you have freedom, A is not sometimes B.
Just in case you do not know the definition of freedom: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action

If you are free to live your life as you see fit socially then you have teh freedom economically to do as you please as well.


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Offlinebroken
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Re: Why do so many people think stealing more from the "rich" is ok? [Re: johnm214]
    #14604271 - 06/13/11 02:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Your views weren't what were asked for, but rather, you were asked to explain what was wrong with capitalism.




well then u are asking for my views then aren't u? my view on what's wrong with capitalism. stop contradicting yourself and i again refer to my earlier post.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
If you claim your previous answer suffices, then explain how any of those claims are true....




1% of the worlds population controls 99% of the world wealth. is that not proof?


Quote:

johnm214 said:
...and what you are comparing capitalism to.




i'm not comparing it to anything. didn't claim i was.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Its difficult to see how you could determine it oppresses the poor finanicall, for example, when no refrence was provided to any other system.  Without having any stated basis for determining what is due to the poor or rich or whomever, how can you determine that any one of these is getting cheated?




1% of the population controls 99% of the worlds wealth.


how can u ppl ignore this. it is clearly oppression.


--------------------
:willynilly:


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