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Offline4896744
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The Illusion of the "Self"
    #14588391 - 06/09/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14588511 - 06/10/11 12:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.




would the "self" be your place in the universe? maybe it has more to do with time


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14588521 - 06/10/11 12:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How about the illusion of the illusion of the "self"


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Kickle]
    #14588561 - 06/10/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
How about the illusion of the illusion of the "self"




inception :shocked:


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14588712 - 06/10/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think self is an idea. The idea seems the same from one day to the next because the conditions which create the idea are similar from one day to the next.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14588966 - 06/10/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

t is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever




How do you figure? The illusion breaks all the time. It breaks every night you go to sleep and actually it breaks at the end of each moment.

The Buddha was asked how long does a human life last? - one breath


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #14589107 - 06/10/11 05:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think it's an emergent property of brain function. A convenient program for the material survival a  somewhat singular biological entity. I think other animals have this also but in different degree and complexity due to brain function and survival challenges.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14589304 - 06/10/11 07:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.




Well I don't know about you all but all this deep thought has made me kind of tired.  How do you guys keep this up day after day?  Myself, I would just quit...like now.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14589356 - 06/10/11 08:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quiting is not a bad idea.  I'm not done yet however.  I'm very goal oriented. Plus I'm having fun. If I need a brake I just take one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14589664 - 06/10/11 09:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

t is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever




How do you figure? The illusion breaks all the time. It breaks every night you go to sleep and actually it breaks at the end of each moment.

The Buddha was asked how long does a human life last? - one breath




The illusion is somewhat powered down when you go to sleep, but not completely broken. You still dream, and the underlying cause of the illusion of the "self", your brain, is being maintained. However once that underlying cause of the emergent property we call the "self" is severed it can never come back.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14589670 - 06/10/11 10:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it's an emergent property of brain function. A convenient program for the material survival a  somewhat singular biological entity. I think other animals have this also but in different degree and complexity due to brain function and survival challenges.




Now that I have been thinking about this a lot, I'm not so sure that it is even a tool for survival. I think it may just be a by product of other tools for survival.


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Live your Life! :heart:


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Rahz]
    #14589689 - 06/10/11 10:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think self is an idea. The idea seems the same from one day to the next because the conditions which create the idea are similar from one day to the next.




I think this is basically true. However, I would call the "self" experience rather than an idea. For example, if you go into intense ego loss on a trip, the idea you experience isn't similar to previous ideas or ideas in the future (discounting other trips that induce ego loss). What is the same however is that you are experiencing from what is basically the same perspective.


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Live your Life! :heart:


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14589692 - 06/10/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

would the "self" be your place in the universe? maybe it has more to do with time




I consider the "self" to be experience.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14589743 - 06/10/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quiting is not a bad idea.  I'm not done yet however.  I'm very goal oriented. Plus I'm having fun. If I need a brake I just take one.




I had a goal on Full Tilt Poker to reach a billion play chips.  Only made it to 357 million.  Considering some pay $5 a million for play and now that may be worth more not bad.  Is this the kind of goals and fun you are talking about?

I guess mental gymnastics to me gets kind of boring when you can be watching this



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14589756 - 06/10/11 10:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it's an emergent property of brain function. A convenient program for the material survival a  somewhat singular biological entity. I think other animals have this also but in different degree and complexity due to brain function and survival challenges.




Now that I have been thinking about this a lot, I'm not so sure that it is even a tool for survival. I think it may just be a by product of other tools for survival.





Give me an example.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14589760 - 06/10/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Is this the kind of goals and fun you are talking about?

Among other things. Eventually one may come to suspect that all their goals are game play.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14589800 - 06/10/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it's an emergent property of brain function. A convenient program for the material survival a  somewhat singular biological entity. I think other animals have this also but in different degree and complexity due to brain function and survival challenges.




Now that I have been thinking about this a lot, I'm not so sure that it is even a tool for survival. I think it may just be a by product of other tools for survival.




Give me an example.





By other tools for survival I mean the different components of the brain. This is because I view the "self" to be the phenomenon of experience, and not the specific atoms you are comprised of, the structure of said atoms, or the thoughts and memories you possess. My reasoning behind that is that you can reproduce any or all of these things and still not experience from that replica's perspective.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14589819 - 06/10/11 10:29 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So you think that operating in a robotic manner would be a more useful survival tool? One of the things that a developed personality has at it's disposal is creativity. When conditions change there is more opportunity to adapt.

Or am I misunderstanding?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14589870 - 06/10/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.




How do you define the self?

Your reactions emotionally/mentally/physically to things?

If so I would say they are an outcome of our environment.

Technically though, everything is a part of blob of substance that makes up the universe.

But I think the first one is much more useful.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14589884 - 06/10/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So you think that operating in a robotic manner would be a more useful survival tool? One of the things that a developed personality has at it's disposal is creativity. When conditions change there is more opportunity to adapt.

Or am I misunderstanding?




I don't consider personality to be the "self". You could recreate the personality in another being by building an exact replica of yourself. However, would you automatically start to experience from both perspectives of your "self" and this new being which was an exact replica of you? I don't think so.


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Live your Life! :heart:


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14589894 - 06/10/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.




How do you define the self?

Your reactions emotionally/mentally/physically to things?

If so I would say they are an outcome of our environment.

Technically though, everything is a part of blob of substance that makes up the universe.

But I think the first one is much more useful.




I am defining the self as experience. The reasoning behind this is that you could in theory create an exact replica of your body. It would behave in the exact same way as you, and from the perspective of an outside observer there would be no difference between the two of you. However, would you somehow start to experience form this new being's perspective? I don't think so.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590025 - 06/10/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You could recreate the personality in another being by building an exact replica of yourself.

Don't think so. No one has done it because the brain is in constant flux and the personality is not simple but very very complex.

IMO the "self" is an illusion created by a feeling produced in the brain which defines us a separate. It is very complex and when taken in whole can be defined as a personality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14590125 - 06/10/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You could recreate the personality in another being by building an exact replica of yourself.

Don't think so. No one has done it because the brain is in constant flux and the personality is not simple but very very complex.

IMO the "self" is an illusion created by a feeling produced in the brain which defines us a separate. It is very complex and when taken in whole can be defined as a personality.




So what if it is very complex? That doesn't mean that theoretically it couldn't be done.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590162 - 06/10/11 11:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Theory is not fact.  And even if it was done there is no way of knowing what the outcome would be.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14590188 - 06/10/11 11:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Theory is not fact.  And even if it was done there is no way of knowing what the outcome would be.




I feel like you are missing the point. The point is not the feasibility or process of the creation of this exact replica. This is a thought experiment where that part is just assumed. The point is if you were to have this exact replica, would you start to experience from this new being's perspective? The answer to that is no in my opinion.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590243 - 06/10/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'd have to say yes but it would be a very complex process to program that many variables into a copy.  It would be like creating a universe but once you did it the results would be the same.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14590283 - 06/10/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'd have to say yes but it would be a very complex process to program that many variables into a copy.  It would be like creating a universe but once you did it the results would be the same.




Sure, but like I said, I am not supporting the potential feasibility of such an undertaking. The point is to show that experience is not only based on the formation of atoms that you are comprised of. It is a specific phenomenon that can only be created once. Once the underlying cause of this specific phenomenon is severed, it is gone for good.

This disproves Nietzsche's idea of Eternal Recurrence, if we discount it already being disproved through math.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590297 - 06/10/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well I'm glad to hear that. Eternal recurrence sucks except for all the sex and pig out meals.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590452 - 06/10/11 12:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.



First you say the self is an illusion, then you say that if another self were created, it wouldn't "truly" be your self. But I thought it was an illusion?

If your self is an illusion, then it couldn't experience anything in the future, but it also is not experiencing anything now, because it is not real.

Your self is not experiencing. Your sense organs are. If sense organs exactly like yours happen to come about at some point in the future, it would be the same as you experiencing. The only reason you would have to disbelieve this would be if you believed in some sort of unique identifier of "you" beyond your sense organs.

I have no idea on what grounds you can claim that the physical configuration of your sense organs can only be created once. I definitely wouldn't say you disproved the eternal recurrence. :lol:

Cyclical models of cosmology are becoming more widespread in astrophysics today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_Cyclic_Cosmology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (06/10/11 12:53 PM)


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14590577 - 06/10/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

iThink said:

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.



First you say the self is an illusion, then you say that if another self were created, it wouldn't "truly" be your self. But I thought it was an illusion?

If your self is an illusion, then it couldn't experience anything in the future, but it also is not experiencing anything now, because it is not real.

Your self is not experiencing. Your sense organs are. If sense organs exactly like yours happen to come about at some point in the future, it would be the same as you experiencing. The only reason you would have to disbelieve this would be if you believed in some sort of unique identifier of "you" beyond your sense organs.

I have no idea on what grounds you can claim that the physical configuration of your sense organs can only be created once. I definitely wouldn't say you disproved the eternal recurrence. :lol:

Cyclical models of cosmology are becoming more widespread in astrophysics today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_Cyclic_Cosmology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model




Calling the "self" an illusion was a bad way to word it. What I meant by that is that it is a temporary phenomenon of experience that cannot be recreated. Keep in mind that I am defining "self" as your specific phenomenon of experience.

Quote:

Your self is not experiencing. Your sense organs are. If sense organs exactly like yours happen to come about at some point in the future, it would be the same as you experiencing. The only reason you would have to disbelieve this would be if you believed in some sort of unique identifier of "you" beyond your sense organs.




So if an exact replica of you was to be created at the same time that you exist, you believe that you would experience from the perspective of both beings?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590617 - 06/10/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
So if an exact replica of you was to be created at the same time that you exist, you believe that you would experience from the perspective of both beings?



If you were destroyed, and then another body with your memories was re-created, I don't believe you would notice a difference. As to whether or not that would still hold if the copy was created simultaneously... who knows? The philosopher Derek Parfit has some interesting thought experiments relating to that idea.

Again, though, I don't know on what grounds you can claim it can't be recreated. Evidence of that seems entirely lacking to me, given the vast time scales that would be involved. Theoretically I can see no reason why it would be the case.


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Edited by NetDiver (06/10/11 02:04 PM)


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14590696 - 06/10/11 01:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

iThink said:
So if an exact replica of you was to be created at the same time that you exist, you believe that you would experience from the perspective of both beings?



If you were destroyed, and then another body your memories exactly was re-created, I don't believe you would notice a difference. As to whether or not that would still hold if the copy was created simultaneously... who knows? The philosopher Derek Parfit has some interesting thought experiments relating to that idea.

Again, though, I don't know on what grounds you can claim it can't be recreated. Evidence of that seems entirely lacking to me, given the vast time scales that would be involved. Theoretically I can see no reason why it would be the case.




The reason I claim this is because I don't think you would experience from two perspectives at once if an exact replica of you was made while you lived. This leads me to believe that the subjective feeling of experience cannot be reproduced. If it can't happen while you are alive, why could it happen when you are dead? Sure, to the outside observer there would be zero difference, but subjectively I don't think it would be the same. I realize this struggles to make sense, as I don't understand it myself. This is one of the most mind fucking thoughts I have thought. :lol:

Btw, thanks for the links!


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14590712 - 06/10/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, apparently Parfit thinks that the experience would be the same? That link really didn't say much, and I googled it and still can't find anything.

Edit: All i can find are discussions on this in philosophy forums. Most seem to agree with me. :shrug:

Edit2: Ok I found a better explanation of it. Parfit seems to agree with me if i understand correctly. The only difference is that he claims the subjective phenomenon of experience doesn't really matter, and all that matters is the continuation of someone psychologically continuous with you. http://www.nd.edu/~jspeaks/courses/old/2006-7/20208/parfit-what-matters.html


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Edited by iThink (06/10/11 01:56 PM)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590794 - 06/10/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.


Our body is a system, that this system replaces its parts doesn't mean that we aren't those parts.


Quote:

iThink said:
Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.


The self, according to Wikipedia, is an individual person as the object of his or her own reflective consciousness.

I don't even see why you're asking if an upload of a person's thoughts/memories into a computer would be their self..it would obviously only be a copy of their thoughts/memories, and it wouldn't be conscious.


Quote:

iThink said:
Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.


So, what's your point? If we were to make an exact replica of me from different atoms, then its perceptions would exactly replicate my perceptions..are you suggesting that me not experiencing from my replica's perspective means that a specific formation of atoms that make up my body aren't "me"?


Quote:

iThink said:
So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction.


In what sense do you mean?


Quote:

iThink said:
An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion...


In what sense do you mean it is temporarily maintained, and in what sense is it an illusion?


Quote:

iThink said:
...and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever.


You're speaking of death, right? :death:


Quote:

iThink said:
Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.


Yeah, it would be a replica of my "self"..where is the amazement/bafflement here? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14590806 - 06/10/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Parfit seems to agree with me if i understand correctly. The only difference is that he claims the subjective phenomenon of experience doesn't really matter, and all that matters is the continuation of someone psychologically continuous with you. http://www.nd.edu/~jspeaks/courses/old/2006-7/20208/parfit-what-matters.html



Exactly, which is why he disagrees with you. :lol: The question of whether or not it "is you" is unimportant, since there's no real "you" to begin with. If it's psychologically continuous with you, then it might as well be, is the direction that he tends towards.

I have to leave for work soon, but at some point I'll put up some quotes from him I recently read supporting that.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14590815 - 06/10/11 02:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...there's no real "you" to begin with.


What do you mean by this?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14590865 - 06/10/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...there's no real "you" to begin with.


What do you mean by this?




Yea, that doesnt make sense to me either.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14591337 - 06/10/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Parfit seems to agree with me if i understand correctly. The only difference is that he claims the subjective phenomenon of experience doesn't really matter, and all that matters is the continuation of someone psychologically continuous with you. http://www.nd.edu/~jspeaks/courses/old/2006-7/20208/parfit-what-matters.html



Exactly, which is why he disagrees with you. :lol: The question of whether or not it "is you" is unimportant, since there's no real "you" to begin with. If it's psychologically continuous with you, then it might as well be, is the direction that he tends towards.

I have to leave for work soon, but at some point I'll put up some quotes from him I recently read supporting that.




I disagree that it doesn't matter because i don't really care if something lives in the future if "i" am not the one experiencing it. Why should i care that it is a replica continuing my thoughts if i can't experience it?

What my argument comes down to is the thought that if you are alive and an exact replica of you is built, you will not experience from this new being's perspective. If this is true, how could you experience from a replica in the future?

I can't get much more detailed than this for i am on my phone and it's a bitch to type. I will answer everyone in greater detail when i get back in a few days and have access to a computer.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14591993 - 06/10/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The self would be the many functions of the body functioning and sending information to the brain. The brain controls these different functions of the body and it also produces thoughts, which are tools to solve puzzles.

However, we have a problem of experiencing things and holding onto thoughts and saying "this is me" instead of "this is".


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14592494 - 06/10/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.





The problem with claims that the 'self' or even the 'mind' is just an illusion is that... well.. what ISNT an illusion?

How are atoms any less illusory than the self?

The self has qualities. There is a sense in which the self is consistent across a person's life. There is also a sense in which the self is inconsistent.

Just like the physical world, which is in some senses quantised into things that change, and in other senses is one continuous thing that has no parts at all.

If the self is an illusion then there is still a sense that the 'self' is the illuded, the perception that is being 'mistaken'. This perception is itself something, perhaps of more reality than any of the things being percieved (which can only be assigned a quality 'real' with further percieved analysis of consistencies and probable inference)/

The self can be considered in the past sense, as in the collection of perceptions and actions occuring in the past.

The self can also be considered in the future sense, as the potential for perception and action in the future.

The self can further be considered in the present sense, as the moment of consciousness toward which one's finger is figuratively pointed towards when uttering the word 'I' or 'Me'.

The self can be considered in the physical sense, as in the various particles that the body consists of at various moments across time. However this view has problems because it is hard to see where the boundary of the self would lie. It seems like many people who are bathing in 'Physicalism' become stuck in this problem, because atoms are being replaced all the time and it is hard to even say where the  body ends given that all particles are interacting with everything in the universe in seamless flux.

So it is best to define the body, the physical extension of the self, in perceptual terms with regards to sensation and agency of the consciousness.

We thus have a person understood self, which includes all aspects of physical structure that the self associates with its sensations and with which the self associates with its manipulation of the world.

Then there is the other-understood self, which includes all aspects of physical structure that others associate with our sensations and with which others associate with our manipulation of the world.

For example, American indians thought that the spaniards were one body with their horse and armour. However The spaniards knew that their horse was seperate. Furthermore, some might go further to claim that the spaniards are on with their guns because they use the guns. But others would say that the spaniards are not even one with their body's since their body's seem just a tool, like their gun's. Futhermore, it could be said that the body it iself a living entity that is cooperating with the essential 'self' of the spaniard, as the horse is.

The multiplicity of views does not make any of them false, it just makes them not fully objective. They are still subject to reason, however, within a subjective view point. Thus they are not worth throwing away as 'mere illusions'. They have concrete existance within the subjective mind but the definitions for their concrete existance are open to all kinds of subjective opinion.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592532 - 06/10/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

iThink said:
What is the self?

Is it the atoms of which you are comprised? Well this can't be true for the atoms that comprise you are constantly being replaced with new atoms.

Maybe it is our memories and thoughts? However, if we were to upload all of your thoughts and memories to a computer, would this be "you"? No it would not, because you wouldn't experience from the computer's perspective.

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective? I think not.

So, with all of this in mind, what is the "self"? It is a reaction. An emergent property of a specific arrangement of matter. It is nothing more than a temporarily maintained illusion, and once the maintaining of this illusion breaks, it is gone forever. Even if an exact replica of you was built in the future, long after your death, it would not be your "self", for your "self" would experience none of it.





The problem with claims that the 'self' or even the 'mind' is just an illusion is that... well.. what ISNT an illusion?


What the hell are you talking about?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14592619 - 06/10/11 08:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.

It is clear that all things can be considered illusory.

The only meaningful sense of illusion is comparing a reported perception with a physical description.

But this is not meaningful when considering the ontology of reality, since physical descriptions are just theories that we create, which themselves may be 'illusory' with respect to a more fundamental reality.

It is very popular to call our consciousness an illusion, but innapropriate.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592646 - 06/10/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.

Pure energy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #14592705 - 06/10/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I like noteworthy's take on this.  It reminds me of when somebody posts that time is an illusion.  All the substantiation they post for it can just as easily be applied to space, charge, or any other concept.  They pick out time because it is not intuitive to them, and because of that they consider it an illusion.  But its not an illusion, and neither is space, charge and other concepts.

Similarly, here the 'self' is being labeled as an illusion and the substantiation for that claim could just as easily be applied to nearly everything.  But its not being applied to everything, the 'self' has been singled out because it is non-intuitive.  So you can either claim that everything is an illusion, or the 'self' is not an illusion.  For simplicity, I choose the latter.

Non-intuitive =/= an illusion.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592717 - 06/10/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.


Everything that's not defined to be illusory..this post, for example.

Correction: anything can be called an illusion, but not everything can be correctly called an illusion (because not everything is an illusion).


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
It is very popular to call our consciousness an illusion, but innapropriate.


It's not only inappropriate, it's incorrect.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14592772 - 06/10/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.


Everything that's not defined to be illusory..this post, for example.

Correction: anything can be called an illusion, but not everything can be correctly called an illusion (because not everything is an illusion).


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
It is very popular to call our consciousness an illusion, but innapropriate.


It's not only inappropriate, it's incorrect.





Why is this post not illusory? What if the post does not exist? In fact, does the post exist? The post seems to have straight lines. Perhaps straight lines don't exist. We nevertheless percieve them.

You claim that not everything is an illusion. Well obviously not 'everything' in the ultimate total sense, because then the word illusion would not have the same meaning that it does now. But it could be that 'everything' that we think about or conceptualise or percieve, IS an illusion. Not just that it COULD be in some unlikely counterfactual but that it reasonably can be considered so.

Unless of course you thought that our humanity is divine and has direct access to what is ultimately, totally, 'true'...

I will repeat that the most meaningful sense of the word 'illusion' involves comparing one perception to a 'standard' perception. This standard is arbitrary, but we often use the physical standard because it can be measured by everyone. Nevertheless, everyone might be under a 'collective illusion'. Unless we thought our physical theory was absolutely true then we ought to assume that everything IS an illusion with respect to a greater 'standard' that we have not yet come to understand or percieve.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14592881 - 06/10/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, illusion was a bad word for it. The whole subject of my theory is the subjective feeling of experience. My basis for this is that with you living now, what if an exact replica of you existed? Would you experience through both bodies? I don't think you would. So if this is true, why wouldn't it be the same after the original "you" was deceased? I just think that it is an interesting thought that doesn't make sense to me as it seems to add some quality to matter that isn't physical. This clearly goes against my general world view.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14592896 - 06/10/11 09:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think that in order for you to experience through both bodies, the two bodies would have to be connected in a similar way that the parts of your brain connect to make one experience


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592960 - 06/10/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I think that in order for you to experience through both bodies, the two bodies would have to be connected in a similar way that the parts of your brain connect to make one experience




Exactly, but doesn't this mean i am assigning a non-physical trait to something? It seems to defy materialism. Both bodies are exactly the same physically, but i still say there is an objective difference.


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Edited by iThink (06/10/11 09:40 PM)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14592976 - 06/10/11 09:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

non-physical? maybe. probably best not to jump to conclusions.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Kickle]
    #14592995 - 06/10/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
non-physical? maybe. probably best not to jump to conclusions.




But how else do you explain it?


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14592997 - 06/10/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only example I can think of close to what you posed would be the below stories.....Im sure there is another study that could say the opposite

http://somethinamazing.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-most-fascinating-twin-stories-you.html


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14593009 - 06/10/11 09:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Yes, illusion was a bad word for it. The whole subject of my theory is the subjective feeling of experience. My basis for this is that with you living now, what if an exact replica of you existed? Would you experience through both bodies? I don't think you would. So if this is true, why wouldn't it be the same after the original "you" was deceased? I just think that it is an interesting thought that doesn't make sense to me as it seems to add some quality to matter that isn't physical. This clearly goes against my general world view.




An exact replica would exist at the exact same location, and thus experience the same things.  Some particles can really be exactly the same, that is they can exist with all the same properties including location.  But others cannot have all the same properties, which means they cannot exist in the same place.  Thus you cannot have exact copies of these particles.  Your body is made up of these types of particles, so there can be only one.  You cannot have an exact copy.  You can make a replica that is close, but not exact. 

(Now I am wondering about a hypothetical consciousness that is made of bosons and can exist in the same location with the same properties...  Confusing, but both 'bodies' would experience the same thing so it kind of skirts your question)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14593021 - 06/10/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Say there is a brain, which even when cloned, remains isolated experientially. I explain this by saying there is space between the original brain and the cloned brain. There is space between experiences. Same as there is space between what I see and my experience of it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14593039 - 06/10/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Name one thing that cannot be called an illusion.


Everything that's not defined to be illusory..this post, for example.

Correction: anything can be called an illusion, but not everything can be correctly called an illusion (because not everything is an illusion).


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
It is very popular to call our consciousness an illusion, but innapropriate.


It's not only inappropriate, it's incorrect.





Why is this post not illusory?


Look up the term 'illusory', then get back to me.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
What if the post does not exist?





Quote:

Noteworthy said:
In fact, does the post exist?


Yes.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
The post seems to have straight lines. Perhaps straight lines don't exist. We nevertheless percieve them.


Just keep it comin'. :braindamage:


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
You claim that not everything is an illusion. Well obviously not 'everything' in the ultimate total sense, because then the word illusion would not have the same meaning that it does now. But it could be that 'everything' that we think about or conceptualise or percieve, IS an illusion.


Now you're changing your claim from "Everything is an illusion" to "It could be that everything that we think about or conceptualize or perceive is an illusion".

You do know there is a difference between 'false' and 'illusory', right? Even if all of our conceptualizations are false, this doesn't necessarily mean that they're illusions.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Not just that it COULD be in some unlikely counterfactual but that it reasonably can be considered so.


Well what reasoning besides "What if?" do you have to back this up with?


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Unless of course you thought that our humanity is divine and has direct access to what is ultimately, totally, 'true'...


Strawman, and false dichotomy..I never made that claim, and it's not like either our conceptualizations have to be illusory, or humanity is divine.

Why do you think that, if our conceptualizations are true, this means that humanity is divine? Do you know what 'divine' means?


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I will repeat that the most meaningful sense of the word 'illusion' involves comparing one perception to a 'standard' perception. This standard is arbitrary, but we often use the physical standard because it can be measured by everyone. Nevertheless, everyone might be under a 'collective illusion'.


"Mights" and "What ifs" are not enough to back up this ridiculous theory of yours, sorry. :lol:


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Unless we thought our physical theory was absolutely true then we ought to assume that everything IS an illusion with respect to a greater 'standard' that we have not yet come to understand or percieve.


Another false dichotomy..either our physical theory is absolutely true, or everything is an illusion.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (06/10/11 10:18 PM)


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: DieCommie]
    #14593065 - 06/10/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Yes, illusion was a bad word for it. The whole subject of my theory is the subjective feeling of experience. My basis for this is that with you living now, what if an exact replica of you existed? Would you experience through both bodies? I don't think you would. So if this is true, why wouldn't it be the same after the original "you" was deceased? I just think that it is an interesting thought that doesn't make sense to me as it seems to add some quality to matter that isn't physical. This clearly goes against my general world view.




An exact replica would exist at the exact same location, and thus experience the same things.  Some particles can really be exactly the same, that is they can exist with all the same properties including location.  But others cannot have all the same properties, which means they cannot exist in the same place.  Thus you cannot have exact copies of these particles.  Your body is
made up of these types of particles, so there can be only one.  You cannot have an exact copy.  You can make a replica that is close, but not exact. 

(Now I am wondering about a hypothetical consciousness that is made of bosons and can exist in the same location with the same properties...  Confusing, but both 'bodies' would experience the same thing so it kind of skirts your question)




That makes perfect sense, i had a feeling it had something to do with time.

I'm glad my theory was destroyed by some solid science.


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Edited by iThink (06/10/11 10:04 PM)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14593092 - 06/10/11 10:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only example I can think of close to what you posed would be the below stories.....Im sure there is another study that could say the opposite

http://somethinamazing.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-most-fascinating-twin-stories-you.html




It was understood that "exact replica" meant the same down to the quantum level. How could it be an exact replica but not an exact replica?


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593099 - 06/10/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well in this case, what if's are incredibly significant. Since physical descriptions continue to be updated, it is more reasonable to think that physical descriptions are incomplete than to say they are complete.

Therefor by saying what if, we are highlighting something that is consistent with our worldview.

We then go further to show that since this view is both consistent and involves less assumptions, it is more reasonable to hold.

When people diss 'what if's it is usually in the case of 'what if XYZ RANDOM STRANGE SITUATION' was the case or 'what if ELABORATE THEORY REGARDING WEIRD POSITS'.

To simply say what if in this case is to highlight reasonable counterfactuals which show that no illusion/reality definition is absolute and thus anything could be illusion.

You seem to have an idea of illusion that you are not sharing, why don't you define illusion in your way?

Also you seem to think my 'theory' is ridiculous. I dont see how it is ridiculous unless you are using your own definition of the word illusion and mixing it with mine. Which is itself quite probable, given that many people apply various connotations to the word 'illusion' which make the claim that 'everything is an illusion' seem quite odd.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14593162 - 06/10/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only example I can think of close to what you posed would be the below stories.....Im sure there is another study that could say the opposite

http://somethinamazing.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-most-fascinating-twin-stories-you.html




It was understood that "exact replica" meant the same down to the quantum level. How could it be an exact replica but not an exact replica?




Your right, I was just posing something as tangible as us humans can get at this time. It is interesting that these people can have extremely similar "selfs" without of any type of collaboration....


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14593168 - 06/10/11 10:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Perhaps then it is the specific formation of atoms that makes up your body? But, what if we were to make an exact replica of you from different atoms? Would you experience from this new being's perspective?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only example I can think of close to what you posed would be the below stories.....Im sure there is another study that could say the opposite

http://somethinamazing.blogspot.com/2009/04/10-most-fascinating-twin-stories-you.html




It was understood that "exact replica" meant the same down to the quantum level. How could it be an exact replica but not an exact replica?





I dont think he knows the concept of indistinguishable particles.

edit - hmmm, after reading that intro, I think it gives a wrong impression.  I will change it tomorrow.  :tongue:


Edited by DieCommie (06/10/11 10:13 PM)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14593201 - 06/10/11 10:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Well in this case, what if's are incredibly significant. Since physical descriptions continue to be updated, it is more reasonable to think that physical descriptions are incomplete than to say they are complete.


So incomplete means incorrect, and incorrect means illusory? Gotcha. :thumbup:


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Therefor by saying what if, we are highlighting something that is consistent with our worldview.

We then go further to show that since this view is both consistent and involves less assumptions, it is more reasonable to hold.


Again, the idea that your mind is all that exists is loaded with the baseless assumption that no other minds exist..the idea that every human has a mind is loaded with the evidence-backed assumption that humans other than yourself have a mind.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
When people diss 'what if's it is usually in the case of 'what if XYZ RANDOM STRANGE SITUATION' was the case or 'what if ELABORATE THEORY REGARDING WEIRD POSITS'.

To simply say what if in this case is to highlight reasonable counterfactuals which show that no illusion/reality definition is absolute and thus anything could be illusion.

You seem to have an idea of illusion that you are not sharing, why don't you define illusion in your way?


No, it is you who seems to be using some sort of unconventional use of the term..please share it with all of us. I am using the term 'illusion' as it's defined in the dictionary.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Also you seem to think my 'theory' is ridiculous. I dont see how it is ridiculous unless you are using your own definition of the word illusion and mixing it with mine. Which is itself quite probable, given that many people apply various connotations to the word 'illusion' which make the claim that 'everything is an illusion' seem quite odd.


Your theory is ridiculous because it is backed up by nothing more than mere "Perhapses" and "What ifs".


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593253 - 06/10/11 10:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Actually I can back my claim with science:

Do straight lines exist? Well apparently straight lines are illusory since space-time is in fact curved in all kinds of ways. You could equally say that the curvature of space time is an illusion caused by the mathematics that you are using.

Do atoms exist? well apparently not, only a wave function exists. But the wave function might just as well be an illusion caused by the epistemic limits of observation.

I dont feel like derailing this thread anymore with your inability to understand these ideas.

Exploring all counterfactuals is a basic technique of coming to understanding. By considering all counterfactuals we can come to greater understanding. You could say that im just backing my statement with 'what if physics is illusory?'. But you are just backing up your statement by saying 'what if physics is not illusory?' You have not used those words because it is common in today's climate to assume physicalism. physicalism is the contemporary trend I was talking about btw


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14593327 - 06/10/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Actually I can back my claim with science:

Do straight lines exist? Well apparently straight lines are illusory since space-time is in fact curved in all kinds of ways. You could equally say that the curvature of space time is an illusion caused by the mathematics that you are using.


Does the term 'straight line' have a definition? We refer to them often, don't we? Then they exist.

Not a hard concept to grasp, breh.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Do atoms exist? well apparently not, only a wave function exists. But the wave function might just as well be an illusion caused by the epistemic limits of observation.


Atoms have been discovered to be particles and waves, right? Then they exist (as particles and waves).

Not a hard concept to grasp, breh.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I dont feel like derailing this thread anymore with your inability to understand these ideas.


It's hilarious that you think I'm the one misunderstanding things here..your assumption that I don't understand that lines aren't actually ultimately perfectly straight (due to the curvature of spacetime), and that atoms are waves is cute, and quaintly retarded.


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
You could say that im just backing my statement with 'what if physics is illusory?'. But you are just backing up your statement by saying 'what if physics is not illusory?


No I'm not, my position on the matter is backed up by the what the latest science is telling us..I, for one, don't outrightly disagree with science. :levitate:


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
'You have not used those words because it is common in today's climate to assume physicalism. physicalism is the contemporary trend I was talking about btw


Is there a point you're trying to make here? Everything is always all muddled up with you, never a clear and distinct point. :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (06/10/11 10:47 PM)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593671 - 06/11/11 12:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...there's no real "you" to begin with.


What do you mean by this?



The chemical reactions and processes that govern your behavior don't magically stop at the borders of your skull. What you do is entirely a product of genetics, instinct, and environment.

So, where does the environment end, and where do you begin? Nowhere... there's no hard line you can draw saying, "this is where the factors that influence me end, and here's where "I" truly begin."

Even your idea of yourself is a factor of the physical environment, which is always changing. Change is what allows us to exist (change = time; time is a precondition of our experience; Kant made quite a detailed argument to that effect), but as we are necessarily in a perpetual state of change, no one version of us can be said to be permanent or definitive.

You're always a work in progress; even after you die and no more events are added to your life, other peoples' ideas of you (which is all that remains of you) change. There is no final, finished version of "you." You're a fleeting voice in someone's head, which will eventually return to the environment and feed the grass and the trees.

There's a lot of debate about personal identity in philosophy, check it out: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (06/11/11 12:11 AM)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14593712 - 06/11/11 12:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...there's no real "you" to begin with.


What do you mean by this?



The chemical reactions and processes that govern your behavior don't magically stop at the borders of your skull. What you do is entirely a product of genetics, instinct, and environment. Even your idea of yourself is a factor of the physical environment, which is always changing. Change is what allows us to exist (change = time; time is a precondition of our experience; Kant made quite a detailed argument to that effect), but as we are necessarily in a perpetual state of change, no one version of us can be said to be permanent or definitive.


Were you going to insert a closing parenthesis somewhere? :undecided:

We're defined as being a dynamic (i.e. changing) system..how does this mean that there's no real "you" to begin with?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
You're always a work in progress; even after you die and no more events are added to your life, other peoples' ideas of you (which is all that remains of you) change. There is no final, finished version of "you." You're a fleeting voice in someone's head, which will eventually return to the environment and feed the grass and the trees.


Wikipedia defines the self as being an individual person as the object of his or her own reflective consciousness..according to this definition, another person's idea of me is not a part of my self.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
There's a lot of debate about personal identity in philosophy, check it out: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/


I don't see why one would entertain the idea that one person's conception of another person is part of the latter person's personal identity. :shrug:

Sure, one person's conception of another person can have an influence on how the latter person views him/herself, but the former person's conception itself is not a part of the latter person's self.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593727 - 06/11/11 12:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Because after you die, the only "identity" of yours that's left exists in the memories of other people.

And you're forgetting, of course, that all of these words, like "dynamic, changing system" are just being produced by neurons in a brain, doing so strictly as a result of environmental influences, and in no way as the result of a mysterious entity immune to the laws of physics called "You."


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14593775 - 06/11/11 12:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Because after you die, the only "identity" of yours that's left exists in the memories of other people.


But that is not my self, that is just a conception of what I am that is external to my self.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
And you're forgetting, of course, that all of these words, like "dynamic, changing system" are just being produced by neurons in a brain, doing so strictly as a result of environmental influences, and in no way as the result of a mysterious entity immune to the laws of physics called "You."


I'm not sure why you seem to be implying that I'm suggesting that the self is some sort of mysterious entity immune to the laws of physics..the self, as defined by Wikipedia, is an individual's conception of their own self. It is a dynamic psychological schema. There is no implication here whatsoever that it is immune to the laws of physics.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593937 - 06/11/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, I am aware of the definition. But you seem to be unaware of the epistemic limits of the source of the definition; i.e. humans.

Telling me the definition of what a self is supposed to be does not make it real. What does a "dynamic psychological scheme" even mean, really? Dynamic = changing, well, everything is changing so that's hardly descriptive. Psychology refers to the study of the mind, but what is the mind, anyway? Hardly well defined.

Definitions of words aren't pure, objective truths that appear out of thin air.


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (06/11/11 01:40 AM)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14593963 - 06/11/11 01:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe I am unaware of them..might you explain them to me? What are the epistemic limits of the source of the definition, and how do they somehow support your position on this matter while at the same time discount mine?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14593980 - 06/11/11 01:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Edited my post. :ninja:


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14594019 - 06/11/11 01:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Telling me the definition of what a self is supposed to be does not make it real.


And telling me that there's no real "you" to begin with does not make it so.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
What does a "dynamic psychological scheme" even mean, really? Dynamic = changing, well, everything is changing so that's hardly descriptive. Psychology refers to the study of the mind, but what is the mind, anyway? Hardly well defined.


So, because it isn't well defined, this means it is non-existent? Our knowledge of the electron evolved over time..it started out as an obscure particle, and ended up being defined in a more detailed fashion. The electron existed as it always did, even when our definition of it was largely incomplete and vague.

What are you asking really when you say "What does a "dynamic psychological scheme" even mean, really?"? What is it about this phenomenon are you unaware of, what kind of answer are you looking for? The answer from a physical/neurological perspective (that it is a certain collection/pattern of interacting neurons)?

How detailed does the definition for the self need to be defined in order for you to believe that it exists? Why does its definition have to be so excruciatingly detailed in order for you to believe that it exists? Seems like unreasonable skepticism to me, and perhaps even a bit of wishful thinking.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Definitions of words aren't pure, objective truths that appear out of thin air.


But they may point to objective truths.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Edited my post. :ninja:


I'd still appreciate it if you addressed my previous post. :sun:

Quote:

Poid said:
Maybe I am unaware of them..might you explain them to me? What are the epistemic limits of the source of the definition, and how do they somehow support your position on this matter while at the same time discount mine?




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (06/11/11 02:15 AM)


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14594077 - 06/11/11 02:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A detailed description should at least be possible for something that exists. It's more a matter of societal convention than anything. If everybody in our society had multiple personalities, what would our concept of self-hood be like? What about if we all had terrible amnesia or short-term memory? :shrug:

These are just a few physiological items that are what I would call "epistemic limits" for some people. Somebody who is schizophrenic has a naturally differing idea of their identity in relation to their body. In most cases, they are able to recognize that it is due to what we call a mental illness. But, if the majority of people in society were schizophrenic, the others would be considered insane and a different concept of self would prevail.

A self is not an objectively measurable entity. We can measure the length of objects in feet, sounds in decibels, weight in grams, but there's no objective tool by which we can measure the beginning or end of a person, because the lines at that point are arbitrary. Does a person begin at their birth? What about the fact that their birth was predetermined long before it occurred by the genetics of their parents? And the fact that their behavior depends largely on those genetics, inherited from other people with other experiences? Where do you end and your genetics/environmental influences begin? How can you really separate a person from their environment, from the whole system? Even your definition was predetermined by those factors.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14594673 - 06/11/11 06:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yah, teleportation (by replication) never will be possible without the death of the experiencing self as far as I can see.
Is this the hint to a possible definition of a soul ? How far is that connected to a 'self' ?
Can someone summarize for me please ? :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: NetDiver]
    #14594960 - 06/11/11 08:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
A detailed description should at least be possible for something that exists.


I'm wondering why the current description isn't detailed enough for you.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It's more a matter of societal convention than anything. If everybody in our society had multiple personalities, what would our concept of self-hood be like? What about if we all had terrible amnesia or short-term memory? :shrug:


What would it matter if our self-hood would be different? What does this have to do with your claim that there is no real self to begin with? Just because our self-hood would be different in the scenarios you mention doesn't mean that they would be non-existent.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
These are just a few physiological items that are what I would call "epistemic limits" for some people. Somebody who is schizophrenic has a naturally differing idea of their identity in relation to their body. In most cases, they are able to recognize that it is due to what we call a mental illness. But, if the majority of people in society were schizophrenic, the others would be considered insane and a different concept of self would prevail.


I still don't see how this ties into your claim that there is no real self to begin with..schizos still have a sense of self, however different it may be than an "ordinary" person's sense of self. In a society of schizos, each schizo would still have an existent sense of self.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
A self is not an objectively measurable entity.


But we can each prove its existence because we each have a self..our inability to objectively prove it is irrelevant here.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
We can measure the length of objects in feet, sounds in decibels, weight in grams, but there's no objective tool by which we can measure the beginning or end of a person, because the lines at that point are arbitrary.


Why does it matter if they're arbitrary? The line between life and death is arbitrarily drawn, but life is a scientifically solid concept nonetheless.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Does a person begin at their birth?


No, they probably begin at the moment of their conception.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
What about the fact that their birth was predetermined long before it occurred by the genetics of their parents?


What about it?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
And the fact that their behavior depends largely on those genetics, inherited from other people with other experiences?


What about it?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Where do you end and your genetics/environmental influences begin?


My genetics are a part of me..environmental influences begin where the system that is my body ends.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
How can you really separate a person from their environment, from the whole system?


Because of its distinct properties in relation to the rest of the system that it (a person) is apart of.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Even your definition was predetermined by those factors.


And?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14594969 - 06/11/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Poid, he isn't saying we don't have an idea of self. He is saying our idea of self is what determines how we perceive our self to exist. Like when you say its a dynamic psychological schema. It doesn't exist the same way an apple does. If we have different ideas of apples, the apples don't change for them. Our ideas we have when we think about apples might change, but the apples won't. However, if you think you have multiple selves, its easy to get caught up in that and actually behave that way. The "self" doesn't change, per say, it never existed. Like an actor that was handed a new part.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14595099 - 06/11/11 09:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Yah, teleportation (by replication) never will be possible without the death of the experiencing self as far as I can see.
Is this the hint to a possible definition of a soul ? How far is that connected to a 'self' ?
Can someone summarize for me please ? :grin:




The original person would cease to experience, and an almost exact replica would be created elsewhere. The reason they can't be exact replicas, thus continuing the experience of the original person, is because you have to take into account the spacial position and position in time of each particle.

That seems to be the most logical way of explaining it imo.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14595375 - 06/11/11 10:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yah, thank you :thumbup:
So science supports the theory the 'self' doesn't live on in a replica.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14596113 - 06/11/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Kinda like saying no two electrons are the same because they occupy different places.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: 4896744]
    #14599215 - 06/12/11 02:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So then, if the (same) self does not appear or continue in an exact replica, can we conclude the self is not an illusion ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599231 - 06/12/11 02:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

All selves are the same!

It's only the situation that is different. I am you and you are me. It sounds wrong, but it's only the details that give reason to pause. Life is life. If we think we are more than that, that is illusion.

An idea (self) is an idea. Individual uniqueness is only an obfuscitator.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Rahz]
    #14599359 - 06/12/11 03:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I not really agree. I think, everybody sees the world with unique eyes. There are similarities, but even there are differences. So imho it's not correct to say you is me, as I might never see/experience the world through your perspective :shrug:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599386 - 06/12/11 03:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It's only the situation that is different.




Situations begin by being novel to the viewers perspective. That doesn't reflect on the self, unless we are describing the self as a product of circumstance. In that case, the self isn't really anything at all except a product of circumstance. I prefer to view self as the direct experience of life, in which case the self is generic, and the only thing that creates diversity is the 'situation'. This doesn't give rise to a specific viewpoint of reality. It's just a basis on which to examine the world without being the center of attention. We are the same on all the basic fronts. The differences people speak of aren't fundamental, they are experiential, and biased, guided by the past. How would it be if there were no experiential basis on which to form opinion?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Rahz]
    #14599419 - 06/12/11 03:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I tend to disagree. Even if we would experience situations similarly, our experiences still would happen in our own heads.
If I suddenly would see through your eyes in your head, with your brain and mind, I would start to wonder maybe.
On the other hand I agree that we are able to make very strong approximations so that it almost looks like as if we would see through the eyes of another, but physically, that is not the case.
So, does us bring that further to the question if the self is an illusion if it never can be experienced through a different (even replicated) body, or can it ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599423 - 06/12/11 03:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
So, does us bring that further to the question...


A little dyslexia there. :grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599438 - 06/12/11 04:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I tend to disagree. Even if we would experience situations similarly, our experiences still would happen in our own heads.
If I suddenly would see through your eyes in your head, with your brain and mind, I would start to wonder maybe.
On the other hand I agree that we are able to make very strong approximations so that it almost looks like as if we would see through the eyes of another, but physically, that is not the case.
So, does us bring that further to the question if the self is an illusion if it never can be experienced through a different (even replicated) body, or can it ?




Experiences are wildly different, so it is difficult to accept that we would be (almost ?) the same without them. It is an idea, and it isn't possible to prove, being that each circumstance comes with particular viewpoints, but it seems that it is the differences in perspective that create the 'differences of self'. -It is easy to point to the exterior/circumstantial differences.- Which interior differences can we describe to some meaningful degree?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14599492 - 06/12/11 04:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
So, does us bring that further to the question...


A little dyslexia there. :grin:



That happens when my 'mother tongue' slips out :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14599497 - 06/12/11 04:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

In Russia, us brings that!


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Rahz]
    #14599502 - 06/12/11 05:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I wanted to say, that it doesn't matter what experiences we make and what external or internal 'programs' rule out identity.
It's the continuation of the experience of the self, that makes the OP to speak about a non-illusionary self, as far as I understood it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (06/12/11 05:12 AM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Poid]
    #14599506 - 06/12/11 05:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
In Russia, us brings that!



Hehe, no, in germane-land it's 'brings us that' :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14604640 - 06/13/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The illusion is somewhat powered down when you go to sleep, but not completely broken. You still dream, and the underlying cause of the illusion of the "self", your brain, is being maintained. However once that underlying cause of the emergent property we call the "self" is severed it can never come back.




Not really sure how you can call it an illusion.

Behind every illusion is a reality or a substance that lies behind the illusion, the illusion is only a mis-interpetaton of something that does exist.

You say that a link between "the self" and the brain is "severed" but what is there to be severed if the self does not exist?

You say the self stops existing with the demolition of the brain but if the self doesn't exist what is there to stop existing?

The reason rebirth is real is because we're never really in the world to begin with.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14604684 - 06/13/11 05:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

We just found out that the self is not an illusion, because there are scientific reasons for its existence :hissyfit:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14604833 - 06/13/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You're basically saying the self exists because it doesn't. Is that how it works?


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: xFrockx]
    #14604882 - 06/13/11 07:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This is a rock solid new age belief so don't mess.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: Icelander]
    #14605111 - 06/13/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

IME the "new age" is about 4.


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Re: The Illusion of the "Self" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14605301 - 06/13/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

The illusion is somewhat powered down when you go to sleep, but not completely broken. You still dream, and the underlying cause of the illusion of the "self", your brain, is being maintained. However once that underlying cause of the emergent property we call the "self" is severed it can never come back.




Not really sure how you can call it an illusion.

Behind every illusion is a reality or a substance that lies behind the illusion, the illusion is only a mis-interpetaton of something that does exist.

You say that a link between "the self" and the brain is "severed" but what is there to be severed if the self does not exist?

You say the self stops existing with the demolition of the brain but if the self doesn't exist what is there to stop existing?

The reason rebirth is real is because we're never really in the world to begin with.




If you had read through the thread you would have realized I retracted my use of the word "illusion". It was a poor choice. You also would have realized that DieCommie showed me the error in my thought experiment. You cannot have two exact copies of something because for them to be exactly the same, they would have to occupy the same spacial position and position in time.

And what do you mean by
Quote:

we're never really in the world to begin with


? That is bullshit. Where else would "we" be, and what do you define "we" as?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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