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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581749 - 06/08/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

only assume that he answered my prayer out of mercy.

That's quite an assumption. You must be aware that huge numbers of  people are at least as deserving and in need of mercy as you and yet their prayers go unanswered and things may even get worse after prayers.  How would you account for this?

Are you seriously asking us to refute the existence of your god when you seem to know almost nothing about him?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581775 - 06/08/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
If I am unclear let me restate:

I dont believe in God because all he does is "help" me.

I cannot preempt God. I asked for his protection. He gave it to me.  Thats not me explaining the whys of God....merely his manifestation to me. I also cannot explain why he helped me...only assume that he answered my prayer out of mercy.




Yes it is explaining the why's of god.

If your wern't why did you pray in the first place?

You have to have a 'why' I should pray to god.

You believed that god has mercy on people, so you prayed, otherwise your wouldn't have prayed.

Now as to disproving why that wasn't god that helped you.

Do you know that 20 000 children die of malnutrition everyday?

Do you know that there are kids in africa that work 70 hour weeks, only to be paid enough for a bowl of rice every two days?

I don't get it...you think god went out of his way to help you, but lets millions of children die each month?????

:what:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineZiggy-Shr00mdust
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581883 - 06/08/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Firstly the burden of proof rests squarely on the shoulders of the party making the positive claim.

When it comes down to it, nobody can prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, having said that I will try and explain why I do not believe that there is such a thing as god.

1) An omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient being is a ridiculous idea in my opinion, but it is not all together out of the question. Any one of those attributes on its own is difficult to imagine, all implications considered. Yet some people like to add anthropomorphic, moral, vengeful, and petty to that list, making the idea of god a blatantly obvious product of human imagination.

2) Some assume that nothing cannot produce everything, so they create the idea of god as a buffer for their confusion. But if god could have come from nothing then so could the universe, so why not cut out the middle man and simply admit that we do not know enough about the cosmos to assert that it cannot have come from nothing.

3) There is absolutely no evidence to support the existence of any other intelligence in the universe other than that found on earth. So to assume that there is a being who's intelligence is so great that it is incomprehensible to us, but who's thoughts, interests, likes and dislikes etc... are the subject of discussion in every church, is nothing more than plain stupidity.


--------------------
He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it


To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders


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OfflinePetey Wheatstraw
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14582017 - 06/08/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Don't worry, OP. I think I understand.

I started questioning my beliefs again years ago, but I began by questioning my disbelief in a god rather than the belief in a god, which I see now as the same thing. I have had quite a few very intense experiences, some like the one you mentioned, that I cannot explain and when I started to question what they mean I saw how similar they are to many religious experiences people have tried to describe. The only difference as far as I could tell was in how others have chosen to describe them. I spoke with many religious people and many of them told me that my experiences WERE "religious" and that I just didn't know god well enough yet to have the ability to understand them as such. I thought about that for a long time and decided that if a benevolent god does exist, the knowledge of that god's existence and the ability to understand it has to be inherent in every person. If it is not inherent then we can't be held responsible for choosing any belief over any other and cannot be justly judged according to the teachings we call "the teachings of Jesus Christ". So I decided that looking within and trying to understand myself would be the most reasonable way to search for and refute or accept a god, and since he can't judge my beliefs I didn't need to go about it in any particular way as long as I got there eventually (not even necessarily in this lifetime). I did tons of searching limited only by my own limitations rather than within the limitations of others' ideas/thoughts/feelings. After a long time of doing that and certain events transpiring, I experienced something significant. I had tripped over the edge of desperation and was tumbling down the slope of insanity. I was sitting in the floor leaning against a wall blasting music through my house as loud as possible, bawling, and already to the point that I was just not in control of myself at all. I starting to tingle all over and suddenly I realized the music wasn't playing, but I hadn't paused it or turned it down, and then I realized I couldn't hear anything at all. I couldn't even hear each breath and before I knew it I couldn't feel them. All of the sudden I took in a huge but relaxing breath even though I felt like my lungs were already completely full and when I let it out I heard voices very clearly speaking phrases to me. I can't even recall what I heard in words but the first thing I thought when I was able to think again was, "Now I understand what people mean when they say god has really spoken to them." I had prayed, not to god, but to the absence of god, and god answered me. I looked at the clock and realized 20 minutes had passed since I first sat in the floor and I felt like I absolutely did not exist for that period of time. When I was able to relate that absence of perception to once again being able to perceive I realized for myself that whatever we try to define as god and whatever we try to deny is god exists in the in-betweens and to accept anything is to deny everything. God exists just as much in the question as in the answer and the only answer is another question, but to ignore the question is just as much denying god as receiving an answer is.

I see myself in others and love/hate all people as much as I love/hate myself. The personal experiences are what matter to me, whether we think we can debunk them or not, it's still always going to be subjective. Just enjoy it :laugh:

Edited by Petey Wheatstraw (06/09/11 02:28 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: Petey Wheatstraw]
    #14582033 - 06/08/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah don't worry OP someone else agrees with you.  :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePetey Wheatstraw
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: Petey Wheatstraw]
    #14582068 - 06/08/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't agree or disagree. I still naturally relate more to the idea that an omnipotent god does not exist, but I know that what's natural to me doesn't necessarily matter outside of myself.

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Offlineargg
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: Petey Wheatstraw]
    #14582807 - 06/08/11 11:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I just used booze making yeast in my bread machine do you guys think it will work out OK? its yeast LC for poteen making I keep in the fridge but I was out of bread and made a loaf with some.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14583087 - 06/09/11 01:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Logical and rational arguments against a higher power




Can you explain the heirachy of power? Should we assume you mean a deity of some kind?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14583884 - 06/09/11 07:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
If I am unclear let me restate:

I dont believe in God because all he does is "help" me.

I cannot preempt God. I asked for his protection. He gave it to me.  Thats not me explaining the whys of God....merely his manifestation to me. I also cannot explain why he helped me...only assume that he answered my prayer out of mercy.




Yes it is explaining the why's of god.

If your wern't why did you pray in the first place?

You have to have a 'why' I should pray to god.

You believed that god has mercy on people, so you prayed, otherwise your wouldn't have prayed.

Now as to disproving why that wasn't god that helped you.

Do you know that 20 000 children die of malnutrition everyday?

Do you know that there are kids in africa that work 70 hour weeks, only to be paid enough for a bowl of rice every two days?

I don't get it...you think god went out of his way to help you, but lets millions of children die each month?????

:what:





I do not buy this argument. I dont need to know the judgment of the God in order to pray to him. There are several texts in the Bible where God has answered prayers..... No one can tell if God will give mercy or not, hence the prayers themselves......but to say I must know the outcome of the prayer before asking is unfounded.


To your other points, you dont need to lecture me on the wrongs of the world. I have done several humanitarian missions throughout the world ...like Eritrea  after the war with Ethiopia. I seen and smelled half human, half skeleton people, and seen  their ravenous eating of slop for subsistence. (let me tell you... it will make you cry)

I cant explain why God lets good things happen to bad people, or bad things to good people...like I said I am not God...the only thing I can do is love others and try to help those in need. The world would be a far worse place (if you imagine that) without him.

Edited by SirTripAlot (06/09/11 07:57 AM)

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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: Icelander]
    #14583936 - 06/09/11 07:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
only assume that he answered my prayer out of mercy.

That's quite an assumption. You must be aware that huge numbers of  people are at least as deserving and in need of mercy as you and yet their prayers go unanswered and things may even get worse after prayers.  How would you account for this?

Are you seriously asking us to refute the existence of your god when you seem to know almost nothing about him?





Faith is the ultimate assumption. Ones salvation depends on it.


..........the New Testament teaches that there is only one God (Mk 12:29; Eph 4:6; Jas 2:19),

...who is pure spirit (Jn 4:24; 1 Jn 4:12),

.....the creator of the world (1 Ti 4:4; Heb 3:4),

..........holy and good (Ro 3:4; Eph 4:24; Rev 4:8),

........ all-powerful (Mt 19:26; Mk 2:7, 10:18)

.......... and worthy of mankind's worship and love (Mt 6:24; Mk 11:22; Lk 2:14).



I will say again, that my question was flawed due to the nature of this forum..


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14584096 - 06/09/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There are several texts in the Bible where God has answered prayers.

I have a book that says the moon is made of cheese.:monkeydance:

Your question certainly is flawed and it's amazing that you didn't know that but considering that logic is not a useful tool for you in coming to conclusions I guess it makes perfect sense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: Icelander]
    #14584722 - 06/09/11 10:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Do you believe the moons made of cheese?  Have you ever been to the moon?  Some would say the landing on the moon never took place..... do you place your faith in somethings you have never directly experience?


And how has our "logic" helped us ?  We have wiped out poverty...no sickness...no muders...its a good ole time on planet earth thanks to humans


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (06/09/11 10:37 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14584793 - 06/09/11 10:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Frankly no I don't believe the moon is made of cheese. You know they actually brought rocks back from the moon. True story.

Logic has helped us in untold ways and I could spend the rest of my life listing them but here's one off the top of my head. Logic tells us that walking into oncoming traffic will injure us even though we've never found that out by personal experience.  Do you really take time to think before you say some of these things? 

The fact that we haven't wiped out the things you mention is not due to using logic but instead in being illogical.  Remember the Christian Crusades?  They were being illogical and a lot of people suffered due to it. Yet they were sure they were being directed by God. Can you explain how that could be?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: Icelander]
    #14584830 - 06/09/11 10:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Has there ever been a time in human history in which someone walked in front of traffic and was not hurt? You say  earths problems are due to illogic...okay...how do we fix it?

How do you know that rocks came back? Did you see them being collected?

The Crusades are a stain on the faith of God. Unfortunately, most wars are started for economic reasons...these were fronted with religon....the final Crusade actually killed Christians.

many will come in his name...but many are liars


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14584913 - 06/09/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How far will you actually stretch to justify your illogical fantasies. :tongue:

Like I said the church told the crusaders that god was telling them to do this. Everyone was being directed by god.  But god speaks the truth to you and not to the church and thousands of these guys?  Did you know that millions of people do crazy shit because god told them to. 

You can't debate your beliefs here logically so why not stfu and go to the mystery and imagination forum where this nonsense belongs. You even said it yourself. You don't belong in this company.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: Icelander]
    #14584970 - 06/09/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH...

Must have hit a funny bone! Moon made of Cheese? My illogical fantasies?

How much crazy shit has been done in the name of science?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14585103 - 06/09/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
If I am unclear let me restate:

I dont believe in God because all he does is "help" me.

I cannot preempt God. I asked for his protection. He gave it to me.  Thats not me explaining the whys of God....merely his manifestation to me. I also cannot explain why he helped me...only assume that he answered my prayer out of mercy.




Yes it is explaining the why's of god.

If your wern't why did you pray in the first place?

You have to have a 'why' I should pray to god.

You believed that god has mercy on people, so you prayed, otherwise your wouldn't have prayed.

Now as to disproving why that wasn't god that helped you.

Do you know that 20 000 children die of malnutrition everyday?

Do you know that there are kids in africa that work 70 hour weeks, only to be paid enough for a bowl of rice every two days?

I don't get it...you think god went out of his way to help you, but lets millions of children die each month?????

:what:





I do not buy this argument. I dont need to know the judgment of the God in order to pray to him. There are several texts in the Bible where God has answered prayers..... No one can tell if God will give mercy or not, hence the prayers themselves......but to say I must know the outcome of the prayer before asking is unfounded.


To your other points, you dont need to lecture me on the wrongs of the world. I have done several humanitarian missions throughout the world ...like Eritrea  after the war with Ethiopia. I seen and smelled half human, half skeleton people, and seen  their ravenous eating of slop for subsistence. (let me tell you... it will make you cry)

I cant explain why God lets good things happen to bad people, or bad things to good people...like I said I am not God...the only thing I can do is love others and try to help those in need. The world would be a far worse place (if you imagine that) without him.




Where was a lecturing you.

You jump to assumptions way to quickly.

Look bud, you cant believe in a god who is just, loving and fair, when he does things like let children starve to death but helps you survive a bad situation.

I mean, honestly, the bible says that god is good and loving but what exactly does that mean when he lets not only adults die of easily preventable illness and lets children starve to death, but helps some little white dude because he asks for help.....jee thats fair.

Another thing that shows that god is unfair is the fact that he sent jesus, over 30 generations ago, to do miracles, but does not offer even one prohpet to walk on water, or heal the sick, in front of our eyes to our generation and all the while, he judges us by the same standard "How we believe in him"

So he gives us a book but gives others eye witness, yet he judges us equally????

Thats ridiculous.

:undecided:

You probally don't want to understand this though; because you probally already have a huge social group that believes in god and want your life to stay the same. You might have married someone who does have these beliefs.

Thats fine, its perfectly understandable. I would defend it and ignore things all together if that were the case.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14585169 - 06/09/11 11:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Funny how tell me I jump to assumptions way to quickly, then go into a diatribe of me having a hugh social group that beliefs in God....and even my wife? WTF?

Life is supposed to be a cake walk because of God?
Where does it say that?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offline4896744
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14585413 - 06/09/11 12:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Funny how tell me I jump to assumptions way to quickly, then go into a diatribe of me having a hugh social group that beliefs in God....and even my wife? WTF?

Life is supposed to be a cake walk because of God?
Where does it say that?




You have yet to give one reason why the Bible should be taken seriously.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: Icelander]
    #14585440 - 06/09/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

  Remember the Christian Crusades?  They were being illogical and a lot of people suffered due to it. Yet they were sure they were being directed by God. Can you explain how that could be?




Illogical? I have met very witches in my lifetime and I owe that mostly to The Crusades. :thumbup:


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