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Offlinehirn
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The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end)
    #14583411 - 06/09/11 04:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Although it's a bit to read, and my english may not be the best at some points, I would really appreciate if you could read it and tell me what you think about it, as I don't know anyone in real life who I could talk to about my ideas.


From a phenomenological view, it is quite obvious that there are 2 fundamental principles occouring in our existence: There are forms. By forms I mean everything, that is always changing and that will stop existing after some time, like a tree or a plant.
The other thing is the space, that the things exist in, the space, that gives forms the opportunity to come into existence. If there is the computer mouse in front of you, the room 'underneath' the form is still there - it's just temporarily the home of a form.
In my point of view, you can find both principles in the human consciousness.
There are also 'forms' that comes and goes, like thoughts and all kinds of sensations.
So there is also the need for space, which is structurally the same as the space outside of you: It's nothing, but it's also everything, because it can give everything (not strictly everything, of course) the opportunity to come into existence for some time.
The fact, that being and self-cognition is the same in consciousness, and like I said, consciousness is structurally the same as the space, I think there is also some kind of universal consciousness in everything, the room itself, and the things in it, which, I think, many of us here experienced under the influence of psychedelics.
There is one significant difference in human consciousness. It does not just experience everything at the same time, like I think it's the case in universal consciousness, but rather experience things by automatically seperating itself from the that things by saying 'this not me', just like you see a tree, you're automatically aware that this tree is not you. And in addition to that, it experiences something that we have named time.
Both aspects have the same condition of possibilty: The memory. The memory must be some kind of material form in humans brain, that is though able to interact with consciousness in some way.
Let me explain both points: In order to be able to feel like a unit by saying 'this is not me' to all forms (except thoughts & emotions maybe), there must be some reference point (The ego) that the forms can be related to. The ego constitutes itself when the consciousness sees its own reflection in the memory, suddenly the 'this is me' occurs. The 'this is me' is the reference point that is needed for the consciousness to feel like a unit seperated from everything else.
It's also the reference point, which let you 'feel' time. Look at your arm and move it. What you see is motion, which is nothing more than your consciousness (or the brain in help with the memory) making a difference of what was just und what is now.
Imagine how you would perceive the world without memory: As you can't make a difference of what was and what is, it would feel like you see everything at the same time.
If you die, the form, your body, won't be there any longer, as it is transient like every form. But your inner space, like the space you can not 'see', but 'feel' in the outer world,can't just go away. Your inner space will get part of the universal consciousness.


Any thoughts?


Edited by hirn (06/09/11 05:43 AM)


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: hirn]
    #14583437 - 06/09/11 04:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To me this seems well thought out, I find the ideas interesting.

I had braced myself for some insane babble, but this made sense to me.  I often think about stuff like this, but I can never really even get past the idea that anything exists at all.  And when I think about this too much I tend to have a harder time understanding things.  I haven't tripped in a long time, but I'm not sure that would help.

It seems the only way to understand everything is to understand nothing, and if that is death maybe it ain't so bad :shrug:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: hirn]
    #14583491 - 06/09/11 05:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

why death is not the end



Verbal cleverness and well-thought phrases will not stop decay and death - nor create an afterlife by sheer wordsmithing. Your post reminds of the over-unity folks trying desperately to overcome the laws of thermodynamics by making more and more intricate machinery and adding more magnets and gizmos.

My question: Why do you need to believe this?


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Offlinehirn
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14583561 - 06/09/11 06:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

why death is not the end



Verbal cleverness and well-thought phrases will not stop decay and death - nor create an afterlife by sheer wordsmithing. Your post reminds of the over-unity folks trying desperately to overcome the laws of thermodynamics by making more and more intricate machinery and adding more magnets and gizmos.

My question: Why do you need to believe this?





In fact, I can't say that I believe in this, it's too speculative for that.
You are right, I made many assumptions to get to that conclusion, and you could criticize each of them. All in all, I thought it's interesting enough to share it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: hirn]
    #14583572 - 06/09/11 06:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Nothing wrong with late night mental masturbation as long as you realize that is all it is.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: hirn]
    #14584026 - 06/09/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

the object-space duality may be convenient, but I like figure-ground relationship better.

both object & space seem equal to me in consciousness, and consciousness seems to be a figure in a ground or space of no-being. (which is a distinct ground from all space)

I don't find the extrapolation to an after death space continuum very compelling since no-being is not conscious.

putting an entity someplace like a zero placeholder in math seems not right, an entity is not a zero.

I am not too fond of notions of ego (a variant expression of conscious entity) nor eternity (imaginary extreme) since there is too little consensus on what those terms actually mean though they could be entangled in another figure ground relationship.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: hirn]
    #14584041 - 06/09/11 08:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Another one bites the dust.

Keep trying humanity.

Death anxiety FTW:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14592672 - 06/10/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

why death is not the end



Verbal cleverness and well-thought phrases will not stop decay and death - nor create an afterlife by sheer wordsmithing. Your post reminds of the over-unity folks trying desperately to overcome the laws of thermodynamics by making more and more intricate machinery and adding more magnets and gizmos.

My question: Why do you need to believe this?




I have a question for you: Why do you need to not believe in your consciousness? To many people, it is just a given, but to some people, they feel the NEED to believe only in things that they can point at and define rigidly.

Nothing in the original post seems anything LIKE overunity, in any way, except that it is something that you will not believe.

There is no law of thermodynamics that can be applied to consciousness. physical laws will only ever apply to physical things.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14593584 - 06/10/11 11:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

why death is not the end



Verbal cleverness and well-thought phrases will not stop decay and death - nor create an afterlife by sheer wordsmithing. Your post reminds of the over-unity folks trying desperately to overcome the laws of thermodynamics by making more and more intricate machinery and adding more magnets and gizmos.

My question: Why do you need to believe this?




I have a question for you: Why do you need to not believe in your consciousness?


When did he say or imply that he doesn't "believe in his consciousness"?


Quote:

Noteworthy said:
There is no law of thermodynamics that can be applied to consciousness. physical laws will only ever apply to physical things.


So you think consciousness is "non-physical" (whatever that means)? :levitate:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: Poid]
    #14595019 - 06/11/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quite simply yes. Since you cannot observe a consciousness, there is no basis for claiming that consciousness is physical. You could define consciousness as a complex behavioral pattern but then you would be talking about something else.

You could say that complex behavioral patterns are evidence for consciousness. But then you would not be distinguishing physicalism from non-physicalism.

You could further say that 'physical' means all things including things that are not described by physics. But then the word physical would cease to hold the same meaning.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14595024 - 06/11/11 09:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Further note: personally I would say that a future physics and way of observing the world may entail a future notion of physical consciousness but thats all science fiction in this day and age.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14595030 - 06/11/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
You could further say that 'physical' means all things including things that are not described by physics. But then the word physical would cease to hold the same meaning.


Physics is the it is the general analysis of nature, conducted in order to understand how the universe behaves, so every natural phenomenon is physical, even if the precise mechanism by which it operates is currently unknown.

Consciousness is natural, so this means it is also physical.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: Poid]
    #14595067 - 06/11/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think you will find that such a definition is trivial because this would allow any magical belief to be a case of the physical.

Unless you say that the physical are only those phenomenon that have been evidenced.

Except then you have the dillema whereby there are multiple interpretations for most evidence.

Eg complex behavior is evidence for consciousness but it does not distinguish between consciousness in the strong sense verses consciousness as simply meaning certain 'complex behaviors'.

In order to reason towards strong notion of consciousness one must have personal nonobjective evidence. This is why I do not consider it to be physical in a popular sense of the word.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14597541 - 06/11/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said: In order to reason towards strong notion of consciousness one must have personal nonobjective evidence. This is why I do not consider it to be physical in a popular sense of the word.



Personal subjective experience certainly comes down as its own category. And it is in a sense a primal category, because any subjective experience is essentially the same, at the root. But at the same time it's obvious that all manifestations of consciousness depend on physics. It's obvious at least to anyone who breathes and eats food, and perhaps uses drugs.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Reload this Page The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: Rhizoid]
    #14598654 - 06/11/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

isnt it merely obvious that consciousness of the physical world requires physics? Sure, we don't know if any other sort of consciousness does exist. But in principle, the physical body is a way for consciousness to be modulated by physical stimuli, not the production of consciousness itself. (as far as we know, that is)


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Offlinetimelapses
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Re: The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: hirn]
    #14598693 - 06/11/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hirn said:
Although it's a bit to read, and my english may not be the best at some points, I would really appreciate if you could read it and tell me what you think about it, as I don't know anyone in real life who I could talk to about my ideas.


From a phenomenological view, it is quite obvious that there are 2 fundamental principles occouring in our existence: There are forms. By forms I mean everything, that is always changing and that will stop existing after some time, like a tree or a plant.
The other thing is the space, that the things exist in, the space, that gives forms the opportunity to come into existence. If there is the computer mouse in front of you, the room 'underneath' the form is still there - it's just temporarily the home of a form.
In my point of view, you can find both principles in the human consciousness.
There are also 'forms' that comes and goes, like thoughts and all kinds of sensations.
So there is also the need for space, which is structurally the same as the space outside of you: It's nothing, but it's also everything, because it can give everything (not strictly everything, of course) the opportunity to come into existence for some time.
The fact, that being and self-cognition is the same in consciousness, and like I said, consciousness is structurally the same as the space, I think there is also some kind of universal consciousness in everything, the room itself, and the things in it, which, I think, many of us here experienced under the influence of psychedelics.
There is one significant difference in human consciousness. It does not just experience everything at the same time, like I think it's the case in universal consciousness, but rather experience things by automatically seperating itself from the that things by saying 'this not me', just like you see a tree, you're automatically aware that this tree is not you. And in addition to that, it experiences something that we have named time.
Both aspects have the same condition of possibilty: The memory. The memory must be some kind of material form in humans brain, that is though able to interact with consciousness in some way.
Let me explain both points: In order to be able to feel like a unit by saying 'this is not me' to all forms (except thoughts & emotions maybe), there must be some reference point (The ego) that the forms can be related to. The ego constitutes itself when the consciousness sees its own reflection in the memory, suddenly the 'this is me' occurs. The 'this is me' is the reference point that is needed for the consciousness to feel like a unit seperated from everything else.
It's also the reference point, which let you 'feel' time. Look at your arm and move it. What you see is motion, which is nothing more than your consciousness (or the brain in help with the memory) making a difference of what was just und what is now.
Imagine how you would perceive the world without memory: As you can't make a difference of what was and what is, it would feel like you see everything at the same time.
If you die, the form, your body, won't be there any longer, as it is transient like every form. But your inner space, like the space you can not 'see', but 'feel' in the outer world,can't just go away. Your inner space will get part of the universal consciousness.


Any thoughts?




Death is not the end?  That's all a matter of opinion man.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Posts: 29,258
Re: The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14598875 - 06/12/11 12:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

physical laws will only ever apply to physical things.




I think that whether or not something is 'physical' is really irrelevant to any scientific or philosophic idea.  The definition of physical is arbitrary and not consistent.  Relationships between observations is where the knowledge and wisdom is, whether you consider something to be physical is just a matter of taste.

Quote:

Since you cannot observe a consciousness




I observe multiple consciousnesses every day.  :shrug:


Edited by DieCommie (06/12/11 12:54 AM)


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The structure of consciousness (or: why death is not the end) [Re: DieCommie]
    #14609638 - 06/13/11 11:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

you do, but how can we get an objective measure of this?

I measure my own consciousness subjectively all the time, but science does not utilise subjective measurement. It only utilises objective measurements.

Even in psychology where subjective experiences are asked about, we still only ever use the objective behavioral data to feed the scientific theories


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