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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Logical and rational arguments against a higher power.
    #14581092 - 06/08/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I would like to hear them.


I make no qualms about my faith....I will not get all evangelical or butthurt
on contrary evidence or differences of opinion. I look forward to challenging my own  beliefs, yet keep it forum appropriate.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offline4896744
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581100 - 06/08/11 05:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I would like to hear them.


I make no qualms about my faith....I will not get all evangelical or butthurt
on contrary evidence or differences of opinion. I look forward to challenging my own  beliefs, yet keep it forum appropriate.




You do understand that the burden of proof is on you don't you? If someone claims something exists, it is up to them to make the case. How can you put forth arguments towards something not existing beyond stating the fact that there is no evidence for it?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Offlineargg
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: 4896744]
    #14581140 - 06/08/11 06:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

seems like its easy to just look at the writings written by people that follow these higher powers and see many of the things said in them do not add up according to modern science and logic. But in reality its on the person who comes up with the hypothesis that there is a higher power or magic supreme wizard to prove it.

I do not think there is one like the all knowing all seeing god that loves you as if he did exist he would not allow people to fight and kill each other in its name and if he did exist and could stop people from fighting and killing each other in its name but did not stop it what kind of a godwizard is that? A mean one that would not earn any of my respect and not worthy of worship or even a jumpstart along a highway.

I forgot to add all the good deeds I have seen any church group do where just something a regular group of humans could have done if they just got together to do it. There are many soup kitchens and other thing like homeless shelter but around here they open 1 church in one area a night as a homeless shelter and give then a shitty sammich. If they taxed the property the church was built on and built houses they could tax or low income halfway type help houses with tax money brought in from property/income taxes churches evade I believe more good could come from that. I feel offended that churches build huge sprawling grounds then do not have to pay taxes on any of it. I know I would have to pay less in taxes if they paid their fair share but I do however see that a fringe church group could be taxed out by the state and it es meant to protect that from happening.

I hate religion and think its a big brainwashing scam but fell people should have the right to do it just make sure it does not affect me and do not use church to lobby for laws against thing that I like that do not affect the churchy people like some pron,game of card,weed,hookers,books about magical fantasy worlds and witchcraft and stop trying to impede scientific research and let the gay marry.


--------------------

Edited by argg (06/08/11 06:17 PM)

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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: 4896744]
    #14581145 - 06/08/11 06:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Other than my own personal faith, and experiences through prayer, do I know God exists. How could I convince you of this (assuming that you dont believe in a higher power)?  If I had a picture of God, or a direct cell line to him, I would. I am not going to try to convert anyone here.

To flip this, wouldn't you be able to easily state your arguments that he doesn't?



I want to hear others ideas, is that to much to ask?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: 4896744]
    #14581148 - 06/08/11 06:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I would like to hear them.


I make no qualms about my faith....I will not get all evangelical or butthurt
on contrary evidence or differences of opinion. I look forward to challenging my own  beliefs, yet keep it forum appropriate.




You do understand that the burden of proof is on you don't you? If someone claims something exists, it is up to them to make the case. How can you put forth arguments towards something not existing beyond stating the fact that there is no evidence for it?




Better start gathering and analyzing evidence, or you better stop making claims.  The burden of proof is on the one making the claim - whatever that claim may be.

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: 4896744]
    #14581171 - 06/08/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The burden of proof is on both, once you make a statement of opinion on whether the phenomena in question exists.

Although it is necessary for this guy to define what he claims he has a desire to be refuted, one cannot say that since he hasn't proven its existence, that it doesn't exist.

TO THE OP;

DEFINE WHAT YOU WANT US TO REFUTE.

Okay, we know it is a god, but with what qualities. Ie. does he influence our experiences, does he have an aim/goal in mind for us to fullfill... etc.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #14581184 - 06/08/11 06:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I would like to hear them.


I make no qualms about my faith....I will not get all evangelical or butthurt
on contrary evidence or differences of opinion. I look forward to challenging my own  beliefs, yet keep it forum appropriate.




There are plenty of rational arguments against the various gods and goddesses that man has created and/or believed in.  You have to define your 'higher power' more carefully if you really want discussion on it.  Leaving it ambiguous is the way the faithful defend their beliefs when challenged by evidence and argument.  As evidence and arguments horn in on the realm of the faithful's higher powers, the definition of the higher powers get changed in an ad hoc fashion such that it evades the new argument and evidence.  Repeat this process for many generations and you get nearly completely ambiguous definitions of what god or a higher power is or does.  This is a retreat by the faithful, and a sign that they are constructing mental defenses for their world view rather than challenging them.

If you really want to hear arguments against your god, you need to carefully define what exactly your god is and what exactly you god can and does do.  If you dont, then you are just hiding in ambiguity for fear of challenging your faith.

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581186 - 06/08/11 06:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Other than my own personal faith, and experiences through prayer, do I know God exists. How could I convince you of this (assuming that you dont believe in a higher power)?  If I had a picture of God, or a direct cell line to him, I would. I am not going to try to convert anyone here.

To flip this, wouldn't you be able to easily state your arguments that he doesn't?



I want to hear others ideas, is that to much to ask?





I can already tell you have no critical thinking skills.

Any response would be useless to you, as you wouldn't understand them.

Honestly, eh? How can we even begin to disprove what you haven't even defined....

Are you naive enough to think that there is only ONE definition of GOD?


Honestly bud, you better learn simple rules of argumentation before you come here.

No-one owns this place, but with statements like that a NOOB can be owned and a flame fest will ensue hahaha.

:blewmeanie:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14581212 - 06/08/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for your ad hominem response....oh, wait, I should not use that term since you so rightfully are able to distingiush my personal debating skills.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (06/08/11 06:35 PM)

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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14581240 - 06/08/11 06:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If its too board, sorry, I will define what a belive to be a higher power:

1. A being exsitng outside the law of physics

2. All powerful...no higher power source.

3. The abilty for damnation, salvation, etc.

4. Created the Earth and man.....its a long list must I go on?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
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Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14581257 - 06/08/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for your input....not looking to hide anything, thats actually why I posted it here. I am actually looking to question my faith. The "Christian" God....if I am not being clear.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offline4896744
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581266 - 06/08/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
If its too board, sorry, I will define what a belive to be a higher power:

1. A being exsitng outside the law of physics

2. All powerful...no higher power source.

3. The abilty for damnation, salvation, etc.

4. Created the Earth and man.....its a long list must I go on?




Are you serious? How many times do I have to tell you the burden of proof is on you? What more can I say beyond that there is no evidence for the existence of a god(s)?

The closest thing possible to what you are looking for would be for you to post some arguments that you have for the existence of god. If you do that, I will be more than happy to refute them for you.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581296 - 06/08/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Thanks for your ad hominem response....oh, wait, I should not use that term since you so rightfully are able to distingiush my personal debating skills.




:facepalm:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: 4896744]
    #14581333 - 06/08/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In  2001, I sustained a multiple tendon laceration on my dominate hand while operating in a theater of war. The wound was pretty bad...like tourniquet bad. Before I lost consciousness....I prayed for my survival and for me not to loose my hand.  I was in a place far from adequate medical attention. I was told to make my peace.......... given my proximity to get some blood.

I was in and out of consciousness...only awakening to see the sand below as I was being dragged. I had an overwhelming sense of peace and protection....its very hard to describe. But, I personally felt God. Obviously I am alive....I do have limited mobility of my dominant hand....but I still have it.

So since I prayed to God, he answered my prayer.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14581337 - 06/08/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

its ok to be ashamed...we all make mistakes


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581341 - 06/08/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/14/16 06:47 PM)

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Offline4896744
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581361 - 06/08/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
In  2001, I sustained a multiple tendon laceration on my dominate hand while operating in a theater of war. The wound was pretty bad...like tourniquet bad. Before I lost consciousness....I prayed for my survival and for me not to loose my hand.  I was in a place far from adequate medical attention. I was told to make my peace.......... given my proximity to get some blood.

I was in and out of consciousness...only awakening to see the sand below as I was being dragged. I had an overwhelming sense of peace and protection....its very hard to describe. But, I personally felt God. Obviously I am alive....I do have limited mobility of my dominant hand....but I still have it.

So since I prayed to God, he answered my prayer.




What kind of argument is that? All that tells me is that someone helped you. Why should I believe god did it? Other humans are something that I know exist. That is therefore the more rational explanation. If god was real, why wouldn't he just shield you from that injury in the first place?

Why don't we reproduce your argument while replacing a few words. I believe in crab people. They live underground and help you in times of need as long as you ask. I got hit by a car. The chances of me living were slim. I survived. Crab people exist because I asked for there help and I lived.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: 4896744]
    #14581372 - 06/08/11 07:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The fact that he was in and out of consciousness when he made is observation is another great piece of evidence against his hypothesis.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581381 - 06/08/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Other than my own personal faith, and experiences through prayer, do I know God exists. How could I convince you of this (assuming that you dont believe in a higher power)?  If I had a picture of God, or a direct cell line to him, I would. I am not going to try to convert anyone here.

To flip this, wouldn't you be able to easily state your arguments that he doesn't?



I want to hear others ideas, is that to much to ask?





Here's the only idea, there is no evidence for a god and nature, including human nature seems to follow directions that science has discovered and nothing needs a god to function.  That's it and that all a logical person needs to know. The rest is faith and there is no debating faith.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Logical and rational arguments against a higher power. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14581387 - 06/08/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you for responding...

Im being honest here, no bullshit. I do see what you are saying...you are actually refuting allot with that response. I might not necessarily agree with it 

No matter what I list then, the conversation or debate is over since I do not believe the physical parameters that we as human adhere to (math,science, etc) pertain to God, thus there would be know way to prove or disprove.

thanks for the enlightenment bro


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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