|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14590722 - 06/10/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Again, there is only forceful emancipation.
Where have you said this before? You haven't, hence your use of the remark "Again" to suggest that you've had to belabor this point is incorrect.
There is not "only" forceful emancipation: Some are opposed to emancipation entirely, some are opposed to it in certain situations, such as you yourself seem to be, and some are entirely opposed to it yet favor voluntary emancipation through social and economic pressure.
Quote:
And vigilantism is not acceptable.
The question is what you would support an why. Given your opposition to owning people yet your opposition to private actors emancipating such people in bondage where legal, it seems you yourself support voluntary emancipation in at least one situation, where bondage is legal, and hence your continued objections to this question appear all the more silly.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14590770 - 06/10/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: It seems improper.
Why?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: johnm214]
#14590830 - 06/10/11 02:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Again, there is only forceful emancipation.
Where have you said this before? You haven't, hence your use of the remark "Again" to suggest that you've had to belabor this point is incorrect.
There is not "only" forceful emancipation: Some are opposed to emancipation entirely, some are opposed to it in certain situations, such as you yourself seem to be, and some are entirely opposed to it yet favor voluntary emancipation through social and economic pressure.
How would it be voluntary if social and economic pressures were brought to bear? Are they not forces? I disagree and assert, again, that unless there is not even one person who wishes to own other people there is only forced emancipation.Quote:
Quote:
And vigilantism is not acceptable.
The question is what you would support an why. Given your opposition to owning people yet your opposition to private actors emancipating such people in bondage where legal, it seems you yourself support voluntary emancipation in at least one situation, where bondage is legal, and hence your continued objections to this question appear all the more silly.
You ask what I think the law should be and then say I accept slavery if it is legal? No. It should be illegal. So should vigilantism and murder and theft and a whole lot of other poopy things that people do to hurt other people. Vigilantes? They are criminals too.
To simplify, I support laws against owning other people. I do not support vigilantes in this case any more than I support vigilantes as a response to murder. Which is to say, in case you can't figure it out, never.
Just out of curiosity, was this some kind of school assignment? What the fuck would lead you down this path of inquiry?
--------------------
|
4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14593325 - 06/10/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: It seems improper.
Why is that?
-------------------- Live your Life!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: 4896744]
#14594905 - 06/11/11 08:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
If life really is survival of the fittest some might survive better as slaves being unfit to handle the rigors of competition.
Take wolves and dogs. Dog's have found a great niche by being slaves to humans. They are often treated well, are fed without having to compete for food in the wild, provided shelter etc. Wolves on the other hand as a species do not submit easily to slavery. I'll bet a lot of people who are starving without work would willingly become slaves if they could be assured of basic good treatment. Look at India where the people are selling a kidney in droves due to lack of resources.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Apollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)


Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Icelander]
#14599413 - 06/12/11 03:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: If life really is survival of the fittest some might survive better as slaves being unfit to handle the rigors of competition.
Take wolves and dogs. Dog's have found a great niche by being slaves to humans. They are often treated well, are fed without having to compete for food in the wild, provided shelter etc. Wolves on the other hand as a species do not submit easily to slavery. I'll bet a lot of people who are starving without work would willingly become slaves if they could be assured of basic good treatment. Look at India where the people are selling a kidney in droves due to lack of resources.
Thats somewhat the reason why I think if you are able to hold a job, you should get a house/flat and healthcare. What good is it working or even being a slave if you have nothing to show for it?
--------------------
"I'm looking at you looking at it" SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book
|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Apollyphelion]
#14603129 - 06/12/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Apollyphelion said:
Quote:
Icelander said: If life really is survival of the fittest some might survive better as slaves being unfit to handle the rigors of competition.
Take wolves and dogs. Dog's have found a great niche by being slaves to humans. They are often treated well, are fed without having to compete for food in the wild, provided shelter etc. Wolves on the other hand as a species do not submit easily to slavery. I'll bet a lot of people who are starving without work would willingly become slaves if they could be assured of basic good treatment. Look at India where the people are selling a kidney in droves due to lack of resources.
Thats somewhat the reason why I think if you are able to hold a job, you should get a house/flat and healthcare. What good is it working or even being a slave if you have nothing to show for it?
What does the answer to this question have to do with your claim?
Who are you proposing to give you this house and healthcare?
I see you've covered the recieving end of the deal, but not mentioned where its coming from. It seems this is a common trend amongst people advocating such things on the board: they only mention that which is a positive, the reciept of something, and ignore completely the negative of the work and wealth it takes to produce that thing.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: johnm214]
#14604875 - 06/13/11 07:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
That's because they believe the playing field should be leveled no matter what your skill level.
Can't wait to see the human race after a couple hundred years of that. Things actually can get worse, much worse.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Icelander]
#14606647 - 06/13/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: That's because they believe the playing field should be leveled no matter what your skill level.
Can't wait to see the human race after a couple hundred years of that. Things actually can get worse, much worse.
But the Soviet Union was such a success!
-------------------- Live your Life!
|
Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: 4896744]
#14622525 - 06/16/11 12:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
What an interesting thread.
I like this argument as its framed because lots of liberty activists are fond of the idea that the civil war wasn't necessary and shouldn't have happened.
And I can understand this.
I would say that it depends on what kind of "slavery" we're talking about.
I am PERFECTLY FINE with ANYTHING that goes on as a result of an uncoerced contract that's been signed by both parties.
Chattel slavery, the sort of slavery in which a human being is kept as an animal is kept; owned indefinitely (until sold) and the children of any individuals are owned as well.
That, I disagree with. I believe some of the charges of such behavior could include kidnapping, rape, forced imprisonment, often being kept under inhumane conditions, torture, mutilation, and of course murder.
Owners of chattel slaves should be approached strong-handedly (outnumbered and outgunned) and told that their slave owning days are over.
--------------------

|
ShroomyJohn
Stranger
Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 1,085
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Humility]
#14622713 - 06/16/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Nope I would not have. Who cares about quality of life for anybody but yourself? Anything for a dollar of profit is fine in my book. Maybe they should work harder and get an education and they wont be in that situation .
|
Darwin23
INFJ



Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 3,277
Loc: United States
Last seen: 3 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: johnm214]
#14662619 - 06/23/11 10:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Very interesting question. The problem is, we all have different views of morality. If you believe in reincarnation or an afterlife, I think you'd be less inclined to want to force emancipation. Essentially this life have little meaning if you believe people will live in Heaven for all eternity afterward. If you believe in reincarnation/karma you might believe people are being repaid for the horrible things they did in their past life and so slavery is essentially justice being served.
I feel that slavery is a clear enough issue though. I think anyone with really any capacity for empathy will recognize slavery as fundamentally wrong. I think the bigger issue is Communism/Free Market. Someone who believes in the free market surely thinks robbing the rich is fundamentally wrong and will probably feel that it is right to forcibly end communism. A communist might think the exploitation of workers that is a result of the free market is fundamentally wrong and will feel that it's right to forcibly destroy the free market.
Hmmm, I love thought provoking questions such as this.
--------------------
Take a look at my journal
|
dshow
Nomad



Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 5,255
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Darwin23]
#14667828 - 06/24/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
despite anything really. lol...
I believe in state rights. that will do pig. that will do.
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,466
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 20 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Icelander]
#14667926 - 06/24/11 09:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: If life really is survival of the fittest some might survive better as slaves being unfit to handle the rigors of competition.
Take wolves and dogs. Dog's have found a great niche by being slaves to humans. They are often treated well, are fed without having to compete for food in the wild, provided shelter etc. Wolves on the other hand as a species do not submit easily to slavery. I'll bet a lot of people who are starving without work would willingly become slaves if they could be assured of basic good treatment. Look at India where the people are selling a kidney in droves due to lack of resources.
Welfare, Affirmative Action, and unemployment benefits is a form of slavery- Granted it not the whips and chains...but is a most effective indirect method of hindering advancement of an ethnicity or race.
If you are for slavery, wouldn't you like the above examples?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
dshow
Nomad



Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 5,255
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#14668119 - 06/24/11 10:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
You are correct.
|
Mycjunky
Stranger


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 1,837
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: dshow]
#14677067 - 06/26/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
dshow said: despite anything really. lol...
I believe in state rights. that will do pig. that will do.
Agreed. Though I disagree with slavery it should have been left up to the states to decide. It may have taken longer to actually abolish slavery but I have confidence it would have happened as many other topics involving civil rights have changed. On a political basis I believe forceful emancipation was wrong because it set a precedent that federal law supersedes state law which is a policy that is negatively affecting our country even today.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: 4896744]
#14678461 - 06/27/11 03:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Slavery is a long standing human tradition. Look at all the crime we have now that we have freed the slaves. It seems like we make one mistake after another. 
I chalk it up to when humans first started believing in moral absolutes.
Why don't you chalk it up to compassion?
I honestly can't believe that either of you guys are for slavery..what if you became a slave? Would you still support slavery? Or would you only support it if you weren't a slave?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (06/27/11 03:22 AM)
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: 4896744]
#14678479 - 06/27/11 03:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: If life really is survival of the fittest some might survive better as slaves being unfit to handle the rigors of competition.
Those people, IMO, should be supported by the rest who can and do successfully handle the rigors of competition. Like you've said before, it's not our fault that we each are the way we are, so why should some people be punished while others enjoy the best life has to offer?
Quote:
Icelander said: Take wolves and dogs. Dog's have found a great niche by being slaves to humans. They are often treated well, are fed without having to compete for food in the wild, provided shelter etc.
Dogs aren't slaves in the same way African Americans were slaves..dogs are friendly companions, and we generally don't demand that they perform tasks which they are fervently opposed to performing, whereas African American slaves were not treated like friendly companions and were forced to do whatever their owners demanded of them, even if they didn't desire to.
Quote:
Icelander said: I'll bet a lot of people who are starving without work would willingly become slaves if they could be assured of basic good treatment. Look at India where the people are selling a kidney in droves due to lack of resources.
This is why some form of socialism is necessary IMO..it's not fair that some are born with better abilities to survive in this world, they should be given a handicap to compensate for this unfairness.
Quote:
Icelander said: That's because they believe the playing field should be leveled no matter what your skill level. 
Why would that be such a terrible thing? Why can't people who are actually able to make money support those who cannot?
Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
Icelander said: That's because they believe the playing field should be leveled no matter what your skill level.
Can't wait to see the human race after a couple hundred years of that. Things actually can get worse, much worse.
But the Soviet Union was such a success!
So, just because the Soviet Union was a disaster, this means that all forms of socialist/communist governments will necessarily be disastrous? China is run by the Communist Party of China, and their economy is among the best in the world..this goes to show that communism can be run efficiently.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
ShroomyJohn
Stranger

Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 1,085
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Poid]
#14679376 - 06/27/11 10:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Icelander said: If life really is survival of the fittest some might survive better as slaves being unfit to handle the rigors of competition.
Those people, IMO, should be supported by the rest who can and do successfully handle the rigors of competition. Like you've said before, it's not our fault that we each are the way we are, so why should some people be punished while others enjoy the best life has to offer?
Quote:
Icelander said: Take wolves and dogs. Dog's have found a great niche by being slaves to humans. They are often treated well, are fed without having to compete for food in the wild, provided shelter etc.
Dogs aren't slaves in the same way African Americans were slaves..dogs are friendly companions, and we generally don't demand that they perform tasks which they are fervently opposed to performing, whereas African American slaves were not treated like friendly companions and were forced to do whatever their owners demanded of them, even if they didn't desire to.
Quote:
Icelander said: I'll bet a lot of people who are starving without work would willingly become slaves if they could be assured of basic good treatment. Look at India where the people are selling a kidney in droves due to lack of resources.
This is why some form of socialism is necessary IMO..it's not fair that some are born with better abilities to survive in this world, they should be given a handicap to compensate for this unfairness.
Quote:
Icelander said: That's because they believe the playing field should be leveled no matter what your skill level. 
Why would that be such a terrible thing? Why can't people who are actually able to make money support those who cannot?
Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
Icelander said: That's because they believe the playing field should be leveled no matter what your skill level.
Can't wait to see the human race after a couple hundred years of that. Things actually can get worse, much worse.
But the Soviet Union was such a success!
So, just because the Soviet Union was a disaster, this means that all forms of socialist/communist governments will necessarily be disastrous? China is run by the Communist Party of China, and their economy is among the best in the world..this goes to show that communism can be run efficiently.
Careful... I've brought up the Chinese before... they don't like talking about the success of the Chinese here. Too many dangerous gaps in their arguments if they admit Chinese success.
I can't fucking believe the people here saying that it should have been left up to the states. "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL" its in the constitution. That we ever allowed slavery was a travesty to begin with, and people here are advocating for a "state's right" to own slaves? Makes me sick to my fucking stomach that there are still people that think this way. Yeah, I'm sure if states were allowed to have slaves, we would still have slaves today in this nation, you would be a complete dumbass to think that isnt the case. What a sad sight when people are so racist, they try to pass their racism off as "believing in states rights"
|
ShroomyJohn
Stranger

Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 1,085
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
|
Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Icelander]
#14679394 - 06/27/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: If life really is survival of the fittest some might survive better as slaves being unfit to handle the rigors of competition.
Take wolves and dogs. Dog's have found a great niche by being slaves to humans. They are often treated well, are fed without having to compete for food in the wild, provided shelter etc. Wolves on the other hand as a species do not submit easily to slavery. I'll bet a lot of people who are starving without work would willingly become slaves if they could be assured of basic good treatment. Look at India where the people are selling a kidney in droves due to lack of resources.
Dogs aren't slaves. In most cases I would say it ends up being the owner who is a slave to the dog. Feeding, letting outside, playing when they want to, etc. To say dogs are enslaved goes against everything current science has to say about human/dog relationships. Just because your dog is a little bitch who takes commands doesn't mean its a slave. You don't befriend slaves.
|
|