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Invisiblejohnm214
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Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south?
    #14578421 - 06/08/11 06:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

As a political and legal matter, would you have supported the forceful emancipation of slaves from those purporting to own them?  Politically?  Should the law permit such actions?

As a related question, what do you think of the person who moves into an area to preach against slavery, knowing the local populace is hostile to his ideas?  What if he anticipates trouble and arms himself beforehand- should this have any bearing on the matter?  What if it was a pro-slavery advocate moving to an unfriendly area? 

I think this is an interesting question given the nature of the US's conflicts presently against those using terrorism and guerrilla actions.  Where is the line separating actions you can support, that should be lawful, from those which you could not support, or which may be permissibly punished by the state?


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Offline4896744
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: johnm214]
    #14580438 - 06/08/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
As a political and legal matter, would you have supported the forceful emancipation of slaves from those purporting to own them?  Politically?  Should the law permit such actions?

As a related question, what do you think of the person who moves into an area to preach against slavery, knowing the local populace is hostile to his ideas?  What if he anticipates trouble and arms himself beforehand- should this have any bearing on the matter?  What if it was a pro-slavery advocate moving to an unfriendly area? 

I think this is an interesting question given the nature of the US's conflicts presently against those using terrorism and guerrilla actions.  Where is the line separating actions you can support, that should be lawful, from those which you could not support, or which may be permissibly punished by the state?




I am not well versed in the politics and economic situation of civil war era America, but from what I do know I wouldn't have supported the emancipation. If I didn't personally depend on something associated with the slave trade I wouldn't have cared as much depending on how the emancipation would affect the overall economy. If I did depend on the slave trade for my income I would have been fervently opposed to the emancipation.

It would also be pretty awesome to own slaves. Imagine having a group of people who have to do whatever you tell them. Seems pretty sweet in my book.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #14580769 - 06/08/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Slavery is a long standing human tradition. :thumbup:  Look at all the crime we have now that we have freed the slaves. It seems like we make one mistake after another. :sad:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineFeelsGoodMan
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Icelander]
    #14580914 - 06/08/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:feelsgoodman:


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Offline4896744
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: Icelander]
    #14581048 - 06/08/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Slavery is a long standing human tradition. :thumbup:  Look at all the crime we have now that we have freed the slaves. It seems like we make one mistake after another. :sad:




I chalk it up to when humans first started believing in moral absolutes. It seems that once you take that first step in believing in some objective moral code, the only natural progression is to keep taking it further. Now we've gotten to the point where some even want to extend the absolute moral codes to animals outside of our species.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: 4896744]
    #14584311 - 06/09/11 09:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

some even want to extend the absolute moral codes to animals outside of our species.




Actually I think many people realise that an absolute moral code cannot exist but would still like to see the relative moral code we currently live by extended to animals outside of our species. I dont see any particular problem with this.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: 4896744]
    #14584701 - 06/09/11 10:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Slavery is a long standing human tradition. :thumbup:  Look at all the crime we have now that we have freed the slaves. It seems like we make one mistake after another. :sad:




I chalk it up to when humans first started believing in moral absolutes. It seems that once you take that first step in believing in some objective moral code, the only natural progression is to keep taking it further. Now we've gotten to the point where some even want to extend the absolute moral codes to animals outside of our species.




:thumbup:


And look at  what child labor laws have done to this country.  Now we have all these illegals stealing our homeland. Children can easily do that work.  They can go to school at night and still get five or six hours sleep before morning.  Another mistake that has cost us our freedoms.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14584725 - 06/09/11 10:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

some even want to extend the absolute moral codes to animals outside of our species.




Actually I think many people realise that an absolute moral code cannot exist but would still like to see the relative moral code we currently live by extended to animals outside of our species. I dont see any particular problem with this.




Will we be prosecuting lions who take over a pride and kill all the young cubs?  Other examples are rife.  Good zappa what an idiotic idea.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14584738 - 06/09/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

They should be forced to bathe also.  Other animals tend to smell funny.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: GazzBut]
    #14585219 - 06/09/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

some even want to extend the absolute moral codes to animals outside of our species.




Actually I think many people realise that an absolute moral code cannot exist but would still like to see the relative moral code we currently live by extended to animals outside of our species. I dont see any particular problem with this.




The problem with this is that it's treason against our species.  To penalize a human for infringing animal rights is to inflict damage on the human species for the benefit of another species.  The meager "benefits" to humanity of seeming "civilized" by such actions are much more strongly outweighed by the lost capacity of that human to contribute to society, to raise children, to help neighbors, to create freely, and so on.  Meanwhile, not as many cats get punched, but the state of any individual cat has little effect on the state of the human species. 

Also, as Zappa alludes to, there is no self-consistent way of extending human rights to other species without making it illegal to kill any other animal except in self defense.  Why is it considered OK to "humanely" kill a cow while it is knocked out, but punching a cat can land you in jail in some states?  Punching another human can land you in jail, but killing nearly always does.  The spectrum of crimes against animals is backwards in an attempt to bring animals into our sphere of society without disrupting the way we have used animals since the dawn of man, but it breaks down when examined.

But back to the topic of this thread, I have no idea what the topic of this thread is.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14585714 - 06/09/11 01:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What don't you understand?  The question is in the title.



If slaves are kept on a plantation against their will and without their consent, would it be wrong of a third party to take them from that plantation using force if neccesary, including breaking any physical restraints and killing those who attempt to stop the seizure?

I would think you would be justified in using force to free the slaves provided they consented to such, and I would support someone who did so as well as advocating for this behavior being legal.  If the bondage is unjust, then the liberations must be permissable, by whatever just means are available.  If someone attempts to stop your liberation having knowledge what you are doing, they are attempting to maintain the bondage and may be forcefully stopped.

In practice, there was mixed support for this view amongst abolitionists.  This does raise troubling questions about other immoral and unjust laws binding people against their will, such as prohibition and so forth.  Seems a confusing and difficult matter, to me anyways.



(btw I completely agree with you about animal welfare laws being ridiculous.  In my state if you have squirrels in your attack your basically screwed.  a) its illegal to keep them as pets, b) its illegal to kill them per animal welfare laws unless you user a veternarian using humane means (actually, more humane than the lethal injection we use for criminals), c) its illegal to keep them as pets, d) its illegal to transport them to a separate parcel of land, even land you own or that is publicly owned

The kicker is that the same law which prohibits killing squirrels unless via a vertarian's euthanasia covers mice as well per my reading- four legged mamals with fur are the criteria.  Mousetraps are apparently illegal devices :foreheadslap)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: johnm214]
    #14585788 - 06/09/11 02:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I do not understand your use of the word "forceful".  Every single act of government is forceful.  Every one without exception.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14588985 - 06/10/11 03:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yes, and what is confusing you?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: johnm214]
    #14589865 - 06/10/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

My point was that it is redundant.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14589902 - 06/10/11 10:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It is redundant if the emancipation would be affected by the government, but this was not stated in the premise.  The question is whether you would support such emancipation.  If the answer is different depending on whether the actor is a government or a private citezin, then you can specify such.

Many private actors encouraged or took part in forceful emancipations of slaves, including direct particpation, hiding them, and encouraging revolts, while many felt this was either wrong or ill-considered.

Personally I don't see any moral difference in whether the action is carried out by the government or via private individual, but if observe such a differense per se or in this situation, then feel free to explain such.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: johnm214]
    #14589921 - 06/10/11 10:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see how it could be anything other than forced as long as there was one single person who wished to keep slaves.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14589952 - 06/10/11 10:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't see how it could be anything other than forced as long as there was one single person who wished to keep slaves.





It only need be forced with regards to that one single person who wished to keep slaves, and again, this wasn't the premise.

You can oppose slavery without viewing forceful emancipation desirable, or only viewing it desirable in certain situations.  For example, many people viewed private actors using force as undesirable, but somehow felt that federal authorities using such methods were justified.

The question is whether you view forceful emancipation something to be supported, politically and morally, and why.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: johnm214]
    #14590587 - 06/10/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Again, there is only forceful emancipation.  And vigilantism is not acceptable.

Yes, I support the lawful prohibition against owning other people.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14590681 - 06/10/11 01:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:


Yes, I support the lawful prohibition against owning other people.




Why is that?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Would you have supported forceful emancipation of the slaves in the US south? [Re: 4896744]
    #14590709 - 06/10/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It seems improper.


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