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Offline4896744
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Why is experience continual?
    #14576731 - 06/07/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How is experience continual? If we are the summation of the specific atoms in the specific arrangement that we currently occupy, and these atoms are constantly being replaced with new atoms, how does experience seem continual?


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Live your Life! :heart:


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Offlinesigma_zero
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: 4896744]
    #14576832 - 06/07/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Memory.


--------------------
The truth is, nobody has a clue.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: sigma_zero]
    #14576961 - 06/07/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sigma_zero said:
Memory.




:facepalm: MXE is really clouding my judgement right now. I can't believe i didn't think of that.

Basically, i was trying to think of what the "self" is. I'm just going to stop posting for tonight. :lol:


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineThe shroomy 1
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: 4896744]
    #14576998 - 06/07/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

sigma_zero said:
Memory.




:facepalm: MXE is really clouding my judgement right now. I can't believe i didn't think of that.

Basically, i was trying to think of what the "self" is. I'm just going to stop posting for tonight. :lol:



:handth:


--------------------


AMU Q&A thread.


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Offlinesigma_zero
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: 4896744]
    #14577023 - 06/07/11 10:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I know what you mean I tried to start a thread about that same question but no one understood what I was asking due to my poor communication skills and their quickness to judge someone as less intelligent than they are.
The thing that always gets me is we are supposed to be just biological machines yet we really experience reality and not just react to it.  I understand how the brain creates intelligence but I don't understand how I actually experience that intelligence.

In other words if we were really just an intelligent machine we would just react to stimuli and store it in our memory but it seems to me like there is a lot more to it.  Almost like we are actually something in another dimension or whatever that receives information from this body that allows us to actually experience our lives.  Without there being something more to all of this it seems like we wouldn't actually be aware even though everything else would be the same as far as our actions and capabilities.


--------------------
The truth is, nobody has a clue.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: The shroomy 1]
    #14577026 - 06/07/11 10:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

SHIT'S DEEP :chillin:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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Offlinesigma_zero
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: andrewss]
    #14577043 - 06/07/11 10:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
SHIT'S DEEP :chillin:



Lol well this is a forum based on a psychedelic drug I guess you have to expect the metaphysical bull shit to flow.


--------------------
The truth is, nobody has a clue.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: sigma_zero]
    #14577049 - 06/07/11 10:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sigma_zero said:
I know what you mean I tried to start a thread about that same question but no one understood what I was asking due to my poor communication skills and their quickness to judge someone as less intelligent than they are.
The thing that always gets me is we are supposed to be just biological machines yet we really experience reality and not just react to it.  I understand how the brain creates intelligence but I don't understand how I actually experience that intelligence.

In other words if we were really just an intelligent machine we would just react to stimuli and store it in our memory but it seems to me like there is a lot more to it.  Almost like we are actually something in another dimension or whatever that receives information from this body that allows us to actually experience our lives.  Without there being something more to all of this it seems like we wouldn't actually be aware even though everything else would be the same as far as our actions and capabilities.




Ya, I'm really trying to understand the phenomenon of experience and it's mind fucking me hard right now. At this point I'm going with I have no idea.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Offlinesigma_zero
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: 4896744]
    #14577070 - 06/07/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

sigma_zero said:
I know what you mean I tried to start a thread about that same question but no one understood what I was asking due to my poor communication skills and their quickness to judge someone as less intelligent than they are.
The thing that always gets me is we are supposed to be just biological machines yet we really experience reality and not just react to it.  I understand how the brain creates intelligence but I don't understand how I actually experience that intelligence.

In other words if we were really just an intelligent machine we would just react to stimuli and store it in our memory but it seems to me like there is a lot more to it.  Almost like we are actually something in another dimension or whatever that receives information from this body that allows us to actually experience our lives.  Without there being something more to all of this it seems like we wouldn't actually be aware even though everything else would be the same as far as our actions and capabilities.




Ya, I'm really trying to understand the phenomenon of experience and it's mind fucking me hard right now. At this point I'm going with I have no idea.



Thats the answer.  Nobody has a fucking clue about reality.  We are all just people that inexplicably exist.  If you keep hammering these big ideas you will go crazy like captain Ahab chasing his whale.


--------------------
The truth is, nobody has a clue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: sigma_zero]
    #14577076 - 06/07/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How would it not seem continual? You don't experience the times when you're not experiencing anything.

Like I've tried to say over and over again in this forum, a lot of problem comes from the assumption that there is some fundamental difference between the physical world and our perception (the collective perception of everybody, not just your individual perception). It's dualism. When assuming a difference between the two, you might as well just replace the word "perception" with "soul." Remove any distinction between senses and the objects that are sensed, and many of the problems of philosophy of mind disappear.

I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary. Please take note: this does not mean that:

-Things you see in dreams are "just as real" as things you see when you are awake. Many people mis-interpret my argument to mean that if I see a flying pig when I'm dreaming, that means that flying pigs "are real." If you never woke up from the dream, that would be the case; but things are classified as "dreams" precisely due to the fact that we wake up from them. So dreams are still distinguished from normal waking consciousness, and there are things that are considered "unreal" because they exist only in the dream state.

-An optical illusion is the way it appears at first. Again, if nobody ever knew it was an illusion, we would consider it to be reality, but "illusions" are labelled as such precisely on the condition that we are eventually told that something else is true. In order to identify an illusion as an illusion, we must refer back to sensory experience.

-You can control reality with your mind. Neither consciousness nor the physical world supersede on the other. Consciousness cannot control the physical world because it simply is the physical world. A sword can't cut itself, because it is itself.

-Solipsism is correct. It is just an incoherent viewpoint- it assumes the existence of something such as a single, discrete self, an assumption which is easily dismissed by various paradoxes of personal identity.

Often people dismiss this view off-hand because it is counter-intuitive. I've been accused of things such as being mystical or anti-scientific, when in fact it's quite the opposite. I don't believe in souls, spirits, or anything mystical or unsupported by evidence. I'm about as radically empiricist as it is possible for someone to be. And the fact is that we can never have any empirical evidence of reality outside of sensory experience, because our senses are what we use to gather evidence. Assuming that there's something beyond the senses is not parsimonious.

Someone (I think it was Poid) seemed to think it was odd based on the fact that the perceptions would be "self-generating." But why is that odd? Either it's just self-generating perceptions, or a self-generating physical world "giving rise" to perception. The second one just adds in an extra step. :shrug:

Despite the fact that most people today claim to not be dualists, there is still a ton of leftover dualism in our language and in our assumptions.


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (06/07/11 10:55 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: 4896744]
    #14577397 - 06/07/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
How is experience continual? If we are the summation of the specific atoms in the specific arrangement that we currently occupy, and these atoms are constantly being replaced with new atoms, how does experience seem continual?




Large numbers and averages.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14577407 - 06/07/11 11:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Like I've tried to say over and over again in this forum, a lot of problem comes from the assumption that there is some fundamental difference between the physical world and our perception




You're not the only one.  That is a standard stance that many take, not many regulars but many here and in the spirituality forum.  People have been claiming that for hundreds, if not thousands of years.


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Offlinesigma_zero
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14577438 - 06/07/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
How would it not seem continual? You don't experience the times when you're not experiencing anything.

Like I've tried to say over and over again in this forum, a lot of problem comes from the assumption that there is some fundamental difference between the physical world and our perception (the collective perception of everybody, not just your individual perception). It's dualism. When assuming a difference between the two, you might as well just replace the word "perception" with "soul." Remove any distinction between senses and the objects that are sensed, and many of the problems of philosophy of mind disappear.

I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary. Please take note: this does not mean that:

-Things you see in dreams are "just as real" as things you see when you are awake. Many people mis-interpret my argument to mean that if I see a flying pig when I'm dreaming, that means that flying pigs "are real." If you never woke up from the dream, that would be the case; but things are classified as "dreams" precisely due to the fact that we wake up from them. So dreams are still distinguished from normal waking consciousness, and there are things that are considered "unreal" because they exist only in the dream state.

-An optical illusion is the way it appears at first. Again, if nobody ever knew it was an illusion, we would consider it to be reality, but "illusions" are labelled as such precisely on the condition that we are eventually told that something else is true. In order to identify an illusion as an illusion, we must refer back to sensory experience.

-You can control reality with your mind. Neither consciousness nor the physical world supersede on the other. Consciousness cannot control the physical world because it simply is the physical world. A sword can't cut itself, because it is itself.

-Solipsism is correct. It is just an incoherent viewpoint- it assumes the existence of something such as a single, discrete self, an assumption which is easily dismissed by various paradoxes of personal identity.

Often people dismiss this view off-hand because it is counter-intuitive. I've been accused of things such as being mystical or anti-scientific, when in fact it's quite the opposite. I don't believe in souls, spirits, or anything mystical or unsupported by evidence. I'm about as radically empiricist as it is possible for someone to be. And the fact is that we can never have any empirical evidence of reality outside of sensory experience, because our senses are what we use to gather evidence. Assuming that there's something beyond the senses is not parsimonious.

Someone (I think it was Poid) seemed to think it was odd based on the fact that the perceptions would be "self-generating." But why is that odd? Either it's just self-generating perceptions, or a self-generating physical world "giving rise" to perception. The second one just adds in an extra step. :shrug:

Despite the fact that most people today claim to not be dualists, there is still a ton of leftover dualism in our language and in our assumptions.



Yeah that makes a lot of sense.  Like how do you prove we aren't a brain in a vat.  The only thing we truly know is that we are experiencing what we are experiencing.

Your view really explains this phenomon where things change by being observed. http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2011/may/03/cosmic-habituation/ This is really interesting you should check it out it.


Edited by sigma_zero (06/07/11 11:48 PM)


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: sigma_zero]
    #14577519 - 06/07/11 11:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sigma_zero said:
Quote:

andrewss said:
SHIT'S DEEP :chillin:



Lol well this is a forum based on a psychedelic drug I guess you have to expect the metaphysical bull shit to flow.







--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Edited by andrewss (06/07/11 11:39 PM)


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Offlinesigma_zero
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: andrewss]
    #14577555 - 06/07/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Wow good job.  You actually found flowing bull shit.  :congrats:


--------------------
The truth is, nobody has a clue.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14577569 - 06/07/11 11:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Someone (I think it was Poid) seemed to think it was odd based on the fact that the perceptions would be "self-generating." But why is that odd? Either it's just self-generating perceptions, or a self-generating physical world "giving rise" to perception. The second one just adds in an extra step. :shrug:


What does it matter that the second one adds an extra step? Have you ever seen a woman give birth? Do you actually think that newborn babies generate their own consciousness, or do you think it's more likely that their consciousness is generated by a fertilized egg?

The fact that babies do not generate their own consciousness should be enough evidence to point to the fact that nothing else (including yourself) does.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Despite the fact that most people today claim to not be dualists, there is still a ton of leftover dualism in our language and in our assumptions.


I agree with you that subjective experiences exist in an objective reality, but like I've said numerous times, the distinction between subjectivity and objectivity is convenient because it allows us to speak in terms of our own personal subjective experience, and in terms of everything else.

I don't understand why anybody would take issue with, or otherwise fail to understand this. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: sigma_zero]
    #14577575 - 06/07/11 11:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sigma_zero said:
Wow good job.  You actually found flowing bull shit.  :congrats:


He's the master of finding funny pictures that are relevant to the conversation. :grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14577836 - 06/08/11 01:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
You're not the only one.  That is a standard stance that many take, not many regulars but many here and in the spirituality forum.  People have been claiming that for hundreds, if not thousands of years.



I definitely am not the only one. :lol:

I (like most people) regurgitate the ideas of others, occasionally in new ways. For similar views expressed in a much more thorough and elegant way, read Spinoza, Nietzsche, Berkeley, and Hume.


--------------------


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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14577870 - 06/08/11 01:30 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

read Spinoza, Nietzsche, Berkeley, and Hume.




:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: sigma_zero]
    #14577988 - 06/08/11 02:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thats the answer.  Nobody has a fucking clue about reality.  We are all just people that inexplicably exist.  If you keep hammering these big ideas you will go crazy like captain Ahab chasing his whale.

Or you can make up something convenient and go with that.  That's what most do it seems.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14578003 - 06/08/11 02:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
How would it not seem continual? You don't experience the times when you're not experiencing anything.

Like I've tried to say over and over again in this forum, a lot of problem comes from the assumption that there is some fundamental difference between the physical world and our perception (the collective perception of everybody, not just your individual perception). It's dualism. When assuming a difference between the two, you might as well just replace the word "perception" with "soul." Remove any distinction between senses and the objects that are sensed, and many of the problems of philosophy of mind disappear.

I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary. Please take note: this does not mean that:

-Things you see in dreams are "just as real" as things you see when you are awake. Many people mis-interpret my argument to mean that if I see a flying pig when I'm dreaming, that means that flying pigs "are real." If you never woke up from the dream, that would be the case; but things are classified as "dreams" precisely due to the fact that we wake up from them. So dreams are still distinguished from normal waking consciousness, and there are things that are considered "unreal" because they exist only in the dream state.

-An optical illusion is the way it appears at first. Again, if nobody ever knew it was an illusion, we would consider it to be reality, but "illusions" are labelled as such precisely on the condition that we are eventually told that something else is true. In order to identify an illusion as an illusion, we must refer back to sensory experience.

-You can control reality with your mind. Neither consciousness nor the physical world supersede on the other. Consciousness cannot control the physical world because it simply is the physical world. A sword can't cut itself, because it is itself.

-Solipsism is correct. It is just an incoherent viewpoint- it assumes the existence of something such as a single, discrete self, an assumption which is easily dismissed by various paradoxes of personal identity.

Often people dismiss this view off-hand because it is counter-intuitive. I've been accused of things such as being mystical or anti-scientific, when in fact it's quite the opposite. I don't believe in souls, spirits, or anything mystical or unsupported by evidence. I'm about as radically empiricist as it is possible for someone to be. And the fact is that we can never have any empirical evidence of reality outside of sensory experience, because our senses are what we use to gather evidence. Assuming that there's something beyond the senses is not parsimonious.

Someone (I think it was Poid) seemed to think it was odd based on the fact that the perceptions would be "self-generating." But why is that odd? Either it's just self-generating perceptions, or a self-generating physical world "giving rise" to perception. The second one just adds in an extra step. :shrug:

Despite the fact that most people today claim to not be dualists, there is still a ton of leftover dualism in our language and in our assumptions.





Great post. One of the most interesting one's I've read here in a very long time and the more so because it was so well explained. (at least to me)  Thanks. :thumbup: I come here for posts like these and I don't find nearly enough of them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: 4896744]
    #14578339 - 06/08/11 05:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

a locality energy flux thing (in which the body is the locus)
in another locality (body) another continuum and another personality is happening.

the general structure and precise arrangement of parts is important, while the composition of parts (at the atomic level) is not more than a matrix on which this is built.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14578656 - 06/08/11 08:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary.




This is a flawed view IMO since there are provable things that exist which no raw human sensory experience can pick up.  Wavelengths of light we can't see, forces we can't feel, sounds we can't hear etc.

Who knows what else is out there?

While in general I agree with you I think that holding that view 100% is as wrong as holding onto any of those other views you discredit.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Icelander]
    #14578661 - 06/08/11 08:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Great post. One of the most interesting one's I've read here in a very long time and the more so because it was so well explained. (at least to me)  Thanks. :thumbup: I come here for posts like these and I don't find nearly enough of them.




I will try harder great rattlesnake master sir.  :bow2:


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
    #14578695 - 06/08/11 08:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary.




This is a flawed view IMO since there are provable things that exist which no raw human sensory experience can pick up.  Wavelengths of light we can't see, forces we can't feel, sounds we can't hear etc.

Who knows what else is out there?

While in general I agree with you I think that holding that view 100% is as wrong as holding onto any of those other views you discredit.





No view of anything imo is ever 100% right or wrong. Things are way to complicated for that.  As Don Juan said "there is always more to everything".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
    #14578697 - 06/08/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Great post. One of the most interesting one's I've read here in a very long time and the more so because it was so well explained. (at least to me)  Thanks. :thumbup: I come here for posts like these and I don't find nearly enough of them.




I will try harder great rattlesnake master sir.  :bow2:




Now now brother, don't get butt hurt.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCups
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Posts: 1,925
Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Icelander]
    #14578956 - 06/08/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

But you dick so big rattlesnake demon god sir man.

(So sorry, I've been watching too much Drawn Together.  Ling Ling is the shit.)



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What's up everybody?!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
    #14578977 - 06/08/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

nice distraction from your massive death anxiety.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Icelander]
    #14579010 - 06/08/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:lol:

Yeah well, enjoying it while I can.  Days are numbered...



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
    #14579040 - 06/08/11 10:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

More Johnny Cash


In your mind, in your mind
One foot on Jacob's ladder
And one foot in the fire
And it all goes down in your mind

Living at the bottom of the stairs in your life
Never a smile knocking on your door
The air is blue and so are you
Prehistoric monsters on the floor

Last verse of your last song
And God don't hear dead men
The end of the line is in your mind
And you'll be staying in

In your mind, in your mind
Bone for bone and skin for skin
Eye for eye and tooth for tooth
Heart for heart and soul for soul
Somebody said what is true

Lock it up and close it down
The sound of morning like a dove
High beyond the rattle and roar
Look into the face of love

In your mind, in your mind
One foot on Jacob's ladder
And one foot in the fire
And it all goes down in your mind

In your mind, in your mind
Sunday words are back again
And you'll eat your fun of the middleman's pie
But just a piece you understand
You'll get the rest up in the sky

Praise and glory, wounded angel
Shuffling round the room
Eternity is down the hall
And you sit there bending spoons
In your mind, in your mind
Father, son and holy ghost
Sacrificial drops the pain
On a silver planet cross
Sanctification on a chain

They say redemption draws knives
Storms of silence from above
Stop your ears close your eyes
Try to find the face of love

In your mind, in your mind
One foot on Jacob's ladder
And one foot in the fire
And it all goes down in your mind


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNetDiver
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Posts: 6,024
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Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
    #14579366 - 06/08/11 11:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
This is a flawed view IMO since there are provable things that exist which no raw human sensory experience can pick up.  Wavelengths of light we can't see, forces we can't feel, sounds we can't hear etc.

Who knows what else is out there?




We do sense those things in a manner of speaking, though, through instruments that ultimately relate back to our sensory experience. :shrug:

Plus, many other animals can sense them -- and I would argue that they have senses just like we do. They simply lack the ability to talk about it and abstract from it in the same way.

Also, I don't completely hold to any view either. :lol: There's always doubt. I do find coming up with theories to be entertaining, though.


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (06/08/11 11:51 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14579399 - 06/08/11 11:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

and I would argue that they have senses just like we do.




And biologists would argue that they often have senses unlike ours, and vise versa.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: sigma_zero]
    #14579487 - 06/08/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"If you keep hammering these big ideas you will go crazy like captain Ahab chasing his whale."

Keep hammering the big ideas, but only hammer them so you can pull them out. It's a great learning process, you get a lot better with nails, hammers, and pulling them out.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Icelander]
    #14579581 - 06/08/11 12:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
How would it not seem continual? You don't experience the times when you're not experiencing anything.

Like I've tried to say over and over again in this forum, a lot of problem comes from the assumption that there is some fundamental difference between the physical world and our perception (the collective perception of everybody, not just your individual perception). It's dualism. When assuming a difference between the two, you might as well just replace the word "perception" with "soul." Remove any distinction between senses and the objects that are sensed, and many of the problems of philosophy of mind disappear.

I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary. Please take note: this does not mean that:

-Things you see in dreams are "just as real" as things you see when you are awake. Many people mis-interpret my argument to mean that if I see a flying pig when I'm dreaming, that means that flying pigs "are real." If you never woke up from the dream, that would be the case; but things are classified as "dreams" precisely due to the fact that we wake up from them. So dreams are still distinguished from normal waking consciousness, and there are things that are considered "unreal" because they exist only in the dream state.

-An optical illusion is the way it appears at first. Again, if nobody ever knew it was an illusion, we would consider it to be reality, but "illusions" are labelled as such precisely on the condition that we are eventually told that something else is true. In order to identify an illusion as an illusion, we must refer back to sensory experience.

-You can control reality with your mind. Neither consciousness nor the physical world supersede on the other. Consciousness cannot control the physical world because it simply is the physical world. A sword can't cut itself, because it is itself.

-Solipsism is correct. It is just an incoherent viewpoint- it assumes the existence of something such as a single, discrete self, an assumption which is easily dismissed by various paradoxes of personal identity.

Often people dismiss this view off-hand because it is counter-intuitive. I've been accused of things such as being mystical or anti-scientific, when in fact it's quite the opposite. I don't believe in souls, spirits, or anything mystical or unsupported by evidence. I'm about as radically empiricist as it is possible for someone to be. And the fact is that we can never have any empirical evidence of reality outside of sensory experience, because our senses are what we use to gather evidence. Assuming that there's something beyond the senses is not parsimonious.

Someone (I think it was Poid) seemed to think it was odd based on the fact that the perceptions would be "self-generating." But why is that odd? Either it's just self-generating perceptions, or a self-generating physical world "giving rise" to perception. The second one just adds in an extra step. :shrug:

Despite the fact that most people today claim to not be dualists, there is still a ton of leftover dualism in our language and in our assumptions.





Great post. One of the most interesting one's I've read here in a very long time and the more so because it was so well explained. (at least to me)  Thanks. :thumbup: I come here for posts like these and I don't find nearly enough of them.




That's why Samurai is one of my favorite posters here. He brings refreshing new ideas (well new to me at least) that still fit a materialistic world view.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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