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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: NetDiver]
#14578003 - 06/08/11 02:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: How would it not seem continual? You don't experience the times when you're not experiencing anything.
Like I've tried to say over and over again in this forum, a lot of problem comes from the assumption that there is some fundamental difference between the physical world and our perception (the collective perception of everybody, not just your individual perception). It's dualism. When assuming a difference between the two, you might as well just replace the word "perception" with "soul." Remove any distinction between senses and the objects that are sensed, and many of the problems of philosophy of mind disappear.
I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary. Please take note: this does not mean that:
-Things you see in dreams are "just as real" as things you see when you are awake. Many people mis-interpret my argument to mean that if I see a flying pig when I'm dreaming, that means that flying pigs "are real." If you never woke up from the dream, that would be the case; but things are classified as "dreams" precisely due to the fact that we wake up from them. So dreams are still distinguished from normal waking consciousness, and there are things that are considered "unreal" because they exist only in the dream state.
-An optical illusion is the way it appears at first. Again, if nobody ever knew it was an illusion, we would consider it to be reality, but "illusions" are labelled as such precisely on the condition that we are eventually told that something else is true. In order to identify an illusion as an illusion, we must refer back to sensory experience.
-You can control reality with your mind. Neither consciousness nor the physical world supersede on the other. Consciousness cannot control the physical world because it simply is the physical world. A sword can't cut itself, because it is itself.
-Solipsism is correct. It is just an incoherent viewpoint- it assumes the existence of something such as a single, discrete self, an assumption which is easily dismissed by various paradoxes of personal identity.
Often people dismiss this view off-hand because it is counter-intuitive. I've been accused of things such as being mystical or anti-scientific, when in fact it's quite the opposite. I don't believe in souls, spirits, or anything mystical or unsupported by evidence. I'm about as radically empiricist as it is possible for someone to be. And the fact is that we can never have any empirical evidence of reality outside of sensory experience, because our senses are what we use to gather evidence. Assuming that there's something beyond the senses is not parsimonious.
Someone (I think it was Poid) seemed to think it was odd based on the fact that the perceptions would be "self-generating." But why is that odd? Either it's just self-generating perceptions, or a self-generating physical world "giving rise" to perception. The second one just adds in an extra step.
Despite the fact that most people today claim to not be dualists, there is still a ton of leftover dualism in our language and in our assumptions.
Great post. One of the most interesting one's I've read here in a very long time and the more so because it was so well explained. (at least to me) Thanks. I come here for posts like these and I don't find nearly enough of them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: 4896744]
#14578339 - 06/08/11 05:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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a locality energy flux thing (in which the body is the locus) in another locality (body) another continuum and another personality is happening.
the general structure and precise arrangement of parts is important, while the composition of parts (at the atomic level) is not more than a matrix on which this is built.
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Quote:
I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary.
This is a flawed view IMO since there are provable things that exist which no raw human sensory experience can pick up. Wavelengths of light we can't see, forces we can't feel, sounds we can't hear etc.
Who knows what else is out there?
While in general I agree with you I think that holding that view 100% is as wrong as holding onto any of those other views you discredit.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Icelander]
#14578661 - 06/08/11 08:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Great post. One of the most interesting one's I've read here in a very long time and the more so because it was so well explained. (at least to me) Thanks. I come here for posts like these and I don't find nearly enough of them.
I will try harder great rattlesnake master sir.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
#14578695 - 06/08/11 08:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary.
This is a flawed view IMO since there are provable things that exist which no raw human sensory experience can pick up. Wavelengths of light we can't see, forces we can't feel, sounds we can't hear etc.
Who knows what else is out there?
While in general I agree with you I think that holding that view 100% is as wrong as holding onto any of those other views you discredit.
No view of anything imo is ever 100% right or wrong. Things are way to complicated for that. As Don Juan said "there is always more to everything".
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
#14578697 - 06/08/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Great post. One of the most interesting one's I've read here in a very long time and the more so because it was so well explained. (at least to me) Thanks. I come here for posts like these and I don't find nearly enough of them.
I will try harder great rattlesnake master sir. 
Now now brother, don't get butt hurt.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Icelander]
#14578956 - 06/08/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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But you dick so big rattlesnake demon god sir man.
(So sorry, I've been watching too much Drawn Together. Ling Ling is the shit.)
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
#14578977 - 06/08/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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nice distraction from your massive death anxiety.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Icelander]
#14579010 - 06/08/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah well, enjoying it while I can. Days are numbered...
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
#14579040 - 06/08/11 10:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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More Johnny Cash
In your mind, in your mind One foot on Jacob's ladder And one foot in the fire And it all goes down in your mind
Living at the bottom of the stairs in your life Never a smile knocking on your door The air is blue and so are you Prehistoric monsters on the floor
Last verse of your last song And God don't hear dead men The end of the line is in your mind And you'll be staying in
In your mind, in your mind Bone for bone and skin for skin Eye for eye and tooth for tooth Heart for heart and soul for soul Somebody said what is true
Lock it up and close it down The sound of morning like a dove High beyond the rattle and roar Look into the face of love
In your mind, in your mind One foot on Jacob's ladder And one foot in the fire And it all goes down in your mind
In your mind, in your mind Sunday words are back again And you'll eat your fun of the middleman's pie But just a piece you understand You'll get the rest up in the sky
Praise and glory, wounded angel Shuffling round the room Eternity is down the hall And you sit there bending spoons In your mind, in your mind Father, son and holy ghost Sacrificial drops the pain On a silver planet cross Sanctification on a chain
They say redemption draws knives Storms of silence from above Stop your ears close your eyes Try to find the face of love
In your mind, in your mind One foot on Jacob's ladder And one foot in the fire And it all goes down in your mind
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Cups]
#14579366 - 06/08/11 11:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said: This is a flawed view IMO since there are provable things that exist which no raw human sensory experience can pick up. Wavelengths of light we can't see, forces we can't feel, sounds we can't hear etc.
Who knows what else is out there?
We do sense those things in a manner of speaking, though, through instruments that ultimately relate back to our sensory experience. 
Plus, many other animals can sense them -- and I would argue that they have senses just like we do. They simply lack the ability to talk about it and abstract from it in the same way.
Also, I don't completely hold to any view either. There's always doubt. I do find coming up with theories to be entertaining, though.
Edited by NetDiver (06/08/11 11:51 AM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: NetDiver]
#14579399 - 06/08/11 11:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
and I would argue that they have senses just like we do.
And biologists would argue that they often have senses unlike ours, and vise versa.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 18 hours
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: sigma_zero]
#14579487 - 06/08/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"If you keep hammering these big ideas you will go crazy like captain Ahab chasing his whale."
Keep hammering the big ideas, but only hammer them so you can pull them out. It's a great learning process, you get a lot better with nails, hammers, and pulling them out.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: Why is experience continual? [Re: Icelander]
#14579581 - 06/08/11 12:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: How would it not seem continual? You don't experience the times when you're not experiencing anything.
Like I've tried to say over and over again in this forum, a lot of problem comes from the assumption that there is some fundamental difference between the physical world and our perception (the collective perception of everybody, not just your individual perception). It's dualism. When assuming a difference between the two, you might as well just replace the word "perception" with "soul." Remove any distinction between senses and the objects that are sensed, and many of the problems of philosophy of mind disappear.
I take a position that would mostly qualify as "neutral monism," though it's also compatible with physicalism. I think it is reasonable to conclude that sensory experience is all there is to reality, based largely on the fact that we could never, even in principle, have any empirical evidence to the contrary. Please take note: this does not mean that:
-Things you see in dreams are "just as real" as things you see when you are awake. Many people mis-interpret my argument to mean that if I see a flying pig when I'm dreaming, that means that flying pigs "are real." If you never woke up from the dream, that would be the case; but things are classified as "dreams" precisely due to the fact that we wake up from them. So dreams are still distinguished from normal waking consciousness, and there are things that are considered "unreal" because they exist only in the dream state.
-An optical illusion is the way it appears at first. Again, if nobody ever knew it was an illusion, we would consider it to be reality, but "illusions" are labelled as such precisely on the condition that we are eventually told that something else is true. In order to identify an illusion as an illusion, we must refer back to sensory experience.
-You can control reality with your mind. Neither consciousness nor the physical world supersede on the other. Consciousness cannot control the physical world because it simply is the physical world. A sword can't cut itself, because it is itself.
-Solipsism is correct. It is just an incoherent viewpoint- it assumes the existence of something such as a single, discrete self, an assumption which is easily dismissed by various paradoxes of personal identity.
Often people dismiss this view off-hand because it is counter-intuitive. I've been accused of things such as being mystical or anti-scientific, when in fact it's quite the opposite. I don't believe in souls, spirits, or anything mystical or unsupported by evidence. I'm about as radically empiricist as it is possible for someone to be. And the fact is that we can never have any empirical evidence of reality outside of sensory experience, because our senses are what we use to gather evidence. Assuming that there's something beyond the senses is not parsimonious.
Someone (I think it was Poid) seemed to think it was odd based on the fact that the perceptions would be "self-generating." But why is that odd? Either it's just self-generating perceptions, or a self-generating physical world "giving rise" to perception. The second one just adds in an extra step.
Despite the fact that most people today claim to not be dualists, there is still a ton of leftover dualism in our language and in our assumptions.
Great post. One of the most interesting one's I've read here in a very long time and the more so because it was so well explained. (at least to me) Thanks. I come here for posts like these and I don't find nearly enough of them.
That's why Samurai is one of my favorite posters here. He brings refreshing new ideas (well new to me at least) that still fit a materialistic world view.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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