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OfflineOneU
Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 763
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Mysticism- Stanislav Grof * 3
    #14575178 - 06/07/11 03:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)



Enjoy.

Some BG info on the guy if you are interested in his work:

Quote:

Stanislav Grof, MD, PhD, is a psychiatrist with almost 50 years of experience in research of nonordinary states of consciousness. He has been the principal investigator in a psychedelic research program at the Psychiatric Research Institute in Prague, Czechoslovakia, chief of psychiatric research at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, assistant professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, and scholar-in-residence at the Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California. It was at Esalen that Stan Grof codeveloped, with his wife Christina Grof, Holotropic Breathwork, a technique that includes deep, connected breathing, music, art, and trained facilitation with the goal of wholeness, healing, and wisdom.




Edited by OneU (06/07/11 03:56 PM)


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: OneU]
    #14575206 - 06/07/11 03:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineOneU
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14575210 - 06/07/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This guy is very interesting:



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Invisiblethe human abstract
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14575224 - 06/07/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

wow symbols pointing in the right way are now idolized and worshiped

this guy is smart..


--------------------
★★


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InvisiblePrimal Glitch
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: OneU]
    #14575340 - 06/07/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'd like to get more into holotropic breathing

thanks for the reminder

:shineon:


--------------------

                                  make the changa you wish to see in the world
                                                                gnome sayin'?


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OfflineOneU
Registered: 03/19/11
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: Primal Glitch]
    #14575359 - 06/07/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's very similar to pranyama (eg: fire breathing) from what I gather but I had forgotten this selection as well.

Thanks for watching :sun:


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OfflineOneU
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: OneU]
    #14575404 - 06/07/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This sheds some light on why he says to draw afterward:



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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: OneU]
    #14576561 - 06/07/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

lol at video saying consciousness comes from the brain.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: circastes]
    #14576659 - 06/07/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

lol at those who say it doesn't :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOneU
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: circastes]
    #14576669 - 06/07/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Which video said that? Are you referring to the second one? That said "it is believed the awareness comes from a mixture of the senses and subconscious mind" or something but that is the unfortunate insolubility of science and 'spirituality' in the collective consciousness of the 'modern' Earth.

:shrug:


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OfflinePsilocybinMike
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: OneU]
    #14576825 - 06/07/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Very well spoken. Completely identifies with my own personal beliefs on religion based on my experiences with various psychedelics of the spiritual kind. Makes perfect sense.

:fonz:

I love Grof's work, the accounts of some of the experiences he's had with patients and himself are fascinating. He was known for treating people with high doses. Good person to read up on, he's a somewhat underrated individual often overshadowed by the other "counter culture heroes" like Ken Kesey, Alexander Shulgin, Albert Hoffman, Tim Leary, Hunter S. Thompson, etc.


--------------------


baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVZBTAYm3rw


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: OneU]
    #14578378 - 06/08/11 06:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
lol at those who say it doesn't :satansmoking:




You're going to pass away and realise only your mind exists and then laugh it all off, ... might as well just realise now!

Quote:

OneU said:
Which video said that? Are you referring to the second one? That said "it is believed the awareness comes from a mixture of the senses and subconscious mind" or something but that is the unfortunate insolubility of science and 'spirituality' in the collective consciousness of the 'modern' Earth.

:shrug:



Yeah, it's just so inept when you realise your mind is all there is. I mean, what the hell do they think they're studying? Consciousness should be the only research... or the primary research.

I guess the rest of the world is all screwed and wrong so why not science, I guess.

I mean just give my perspective a go - a guy that's convinced consciousness is all there is and then scientists try and brush it off as a kind of accident. Either a hilarious misdirection, or some kind of setup...


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: circastes]
    #14578627 - 06/08/11 08:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
lol at those who say it doesn't :satansmoking:




You're going to pass away and realise only your mind exists and then laugh it all off, ... might as well just realise now!






Icelander is going to believe his way into nonexistence.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: circastes]
    #14578727 - 06/08/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You're going to pass away and realise only your mind exists and then laugh it all off, ... might as well just realise now!

You've been wrong about everything you've said so far. Why should this be any different?

In other words there is no way you could know this  being alive no matter how much it allays your fears of non existence and animal unimportance. :monkeydance:

This is why when asked for any type of evidence to back your claims you disappear only to pop up somewhere later to restate your claims of knowing what this or that ultimate truth is.

I have great respect for the person who admits they suspect something but do not know for sure.  You are not that type.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14578749 - 06/08/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

circastes said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
lol at those who say it doesn't :satansmoking:




You're going to pass away and realise only your mind exists and then laugh it all off, ... might as well just realise now!






Icelander is going to believe his way into nonexistence.





Too bad that's not possible. What I believe is not going to effect whatever the truth of the matter is.  And that truth is an unknown. When we die that truth will be revealed either by realizing consciousness (in a way cause we won't know) there being nothing left of said consciousness.

  In life we have to think about it with a brain we did not create and do not understand very well.  This causes many people to believe all sorts of contradictory things with great assurance that they have experienced true and direct reality.

A very common mistake among the uneducated.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: Icelander]
    #14579402 - 06/08/11 11:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's best to keep beliefs in check. Why? Because our beliefs shape our reality a great deal. I think after physical death this may be the case as well. This has been the experience of numerous OBE explorers. I know you believe all of that is some type of mind hallucination, fine - but I would at least entertain the possibility that you can do whatever you could imagine when that happens. Don't limit yourself with a belief that you are just a bag of bones.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14583192 - 06/09/11 02:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You know that funny feeling inside you, that feeling of deja vu-like remembrance, that kind of, "oh, what? oh..." feeling, well that feeling is all that exists... Everything is that feeling.

This whole thing, even with babies being raised to exterminate 7mil Jews and shitheads beating the crap out of eachother in the streets... Is absolutely marvellous. Like I said, when you see it, you'll shit bricks and whether you make a cup of tea or jump off a cliff makes no difference.

Read lotsa Robert Adams.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Offlinehuxmush
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: circastes]
    #14600216 - 06/12/11 10:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
You know that funny feeling inside you, that feeling of deja vu-like remembrance, that kind of, "oh, what? oh..." feeling, well that feeling is all that exists... Everything is that feeling.

This whole thing, even with babies being raised to exterminate 7mil Jews and shitheads beating the crap out of each other in the streets... Is absolutely marvellous. Like I said, when you see it, you'll shit bricks and whether you make a cup of tea or jump off a cliff makes no difference.




Speaking of deja vu, I was thinking of exactly that phrase "shit bricks" in reference to what your talking about earlier this evening (before consciously being aware of your post). Don't know whether to laugh, cry, exacerbate or calm things. Mostly just gently experiencing now, sometimes in thinking mode, sometimes in non-thinking mode.

Watching movies just increases 'the volume' sometimes. Re-watching movies you'd previously seen and noticing all the things you missed the first time is pretty interesting.

Saw Black Swan last night and felt a bit shaky, but saw Scott Pilgrim a few nights before and felt kinda awesome. I get the impression I'm trying to find a nice balance, but also getting the impression I'm trolling myself on previously unprecedented levels. I keep independently having ideas that other people seem to have already had...


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Invisiblethe human abstract
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Re: Organized Religion [Re: huxmush]
    #14600256 - 06/12/11 10:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

im pretty sure its a frontal lobe seizer in the brain


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Offlinevredstein
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: OneU]
    #14607281 - 06/13/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Unfortunately, direct experiences are not that popular in organized religions because once you have direct experiences, you don't need the mediators, you don't need hierarchies."
great quote.
But mediators and hierarchies can be pretty damn attractive for those who are afraid of, incapable of, or just too lazy to seek out direct experiences.
Ironically, the lazy ones have no shortage of energy to devote toward dogmatic faith and fervent loyalty to those mediators and hierarchies.


--------------------
The Hairy Gown and Mossy Cell,
Where I may sit and rightly spell,
Of every Star that Heav'n doth shew,
And every Herb that sips the dew;
Till old experience do attain
To somthing like Prophetic strain.
These pleasures Melancholy give,
And I with thee will choose to live.


-Milton's Il Penseroso


Edited by vredstein (06/13/11 04:26 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: OneU] * 1
    #14608161 - 06/13/11 07:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Stan Grof solved some major conflicts that I carried from my experience of 7/4/73 when my birth was revivified under a massive dose of LSD. I have read most of his works, and I've learned to incorporate deterministic psychoanalytic theories (Freud, Adler, Jung), with free-will existential theories (Frankl, Maslow, Rogers), in order to create a new metatheory. In the last book of his that I obtained from MAPS, for donating, Grof himself said that he didn't know the efficacy of Holotropic Breathwork. There were more contraindications for its practice then for taking LSD! Of LSD, both Grof and I, as well as many at this site are sure of its efficacy for personal change.

Of course, one requires a theoretical 'scaffolding' in order to use the fuel of psychedelics like LSD. Otherwise, there may be colors, bright light, or an unfortunate explosion of one's mental apparatus, but no transcendental escape from the gravitational force of our earthbound nature. Even dear departed Dr. Leary could not separate his sexual needs from what he deemed transcendence. It was more like sex at a cellular level than sex in a cosmic perspective, as a concretization of cosmic masculine and feminine archetypes. Grof has the most wide-reaching grasp of psychedelic usefulness to the end of transcendence IMO.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineOneU
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14608249 - 06/13/11 07:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I had never seen that picture. Is it of transcendence or something else?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: OneU] * 1
    #14609149 - 06/13/11 09:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OneU said:
I had never seen that picture. Is it of transcendence or something else?




Yab-Yum. Compassion-Wisdom. Karuna-Prajna. Father-Mother. Yang-Yin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yab-yum


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineOneU
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14609453 - 06/13/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14609480 - 06/13/11 10:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I once had a dream that "Stanislav Grof" was some essential ingredient or direction that guides my behavior and consciousness towards a pattern of growth and discovery. Although Grof, Jung, and other mystics referred to archetypes within the mind, in this dream these people were the actual archetypes - we only called them humans, and called their messages and signals philosophy, due to that sexy dress that Maya wears when she dances.


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: The Whale] * 1
    #14616942 - 06/15/11 11:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
I once had a dream that "Stanislav Grof" was some essential ingredient or direction that guides my behavior and consciousness towards a pattern of growth and discovery. Although Grof, Jung, and other mystics referred to archetypes within the mind, in this dream these people were the actual archetypes - we only called them humans, and called their messages and signals philosophy, due to that sexy dress that Maya wears when she dances.




We're all dreams in the mind of God. That most people don't experience themselves as Consciousness is THE Cosmic Joke (but not funny from the perspective of suffering). Fish probably don't Realize that they're immersed in an ocean, and primarily made of water. But Maya is indeed the culprit. We experience our existential separateness without the equal experience of essential unity. This is the source of fear, greed, desire, and hence suffering. Do snowflakes try to be examples of perfect crystalline uniqueness? :wink:



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14616961 - 06/15/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

We're all dreams in the mind of God.

I think you got that backwards sonny.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: Icelander]
    #14617250 - 06/15/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To say that we are "dreams in the mind of God" is a more subtle proposition than it sounds. If you get loose with what you mean about God, in my opinion, the idea makes perfect sense. It cannot be denied that the primary fact of reality is experience, not matter, not form, none of those. Those are concepts which the monkey mind has deduced out of raw experience. Good deductions, don't get me wrong, science-bashing is not my point here.

My point is that what we really are, is a conglomeration of experience, interacting with other experience. Obviously there is "room" for mind in the universe, because mind does exist, experience actually happens; and it is in that "space" which absolutely everything that can be experienced is experienced. This space, the sum of all minds, is what I think of as "the mind of God." There are patterns of mind which transcend the individual mind. Cultural paradigms are an obvious example. These are "thoughts in the mind of God." Or "dreams," if for some reason you prefer to think that God is asleep. I'm not gonna bother to take this metaphor to that level of specificity, nor am I sure that the idea of "awake" or "asleep" really applies here, but ... yeah. Mind of God. Makes sense if you're willing to think about it that way.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: laserpig]
    #14617676 - 06/15/11 02:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This space, the sum of all minds, is what I think of as "the mind of God."

That's nice.

. Makes sense if you're willing to think about it that way.

Doesn't make it true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: Icelander]
    #14617715 - 06/15/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's only a metaphor. It's not a falsifiable claim, there is no possibility of it being correct or incorrect. Just a way of conceptualizing huamnity's place in the universe, and the relationship of our individual consciousness to the rest of consciousness in the world.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: laserpig]
    #14617861 - 06/15/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

there is no possibility of it being correct or incorrect.

How would you know that?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOlympus Mons
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: Icelander]
    #14617888 - 06/15/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
there is no possibility of it being correct or incorrect.

How would you know that?



the question is how would i know that.


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #14617984 - 06/15/11 03:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

OK, how would you know that? :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: Icelander]
    #14618523 - 06/15/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
there is no possibility of it being correct or incorrect.

How would you know that?



It's the same basic idea as saying "there's an invisible dragon in your house which can't be detected by any means." That's not a falsifiable claim. It can't be disproven, it can't be proven. Therefore, neither correct nor incorrect.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: laserpig]
    #14618611 - 06/15/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How do you know those are the same?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: Icelander]
    #14620553 - 06/16/11 12:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Icelander, all I'm talking about here is the way I personally choose to use the word "God" in conversation. There is no object that I'm claiming to be real. "The mind of God" is an idea/ideal that I use when conceptualizing my relationship to all of the possible states of mind and being which exist.

"God" is a metaphor the human mind uses when it feels the need to check itself against "the best thing" or "the most knowledge" or "the greatest love" or whatever non-real but nonetheless mentally useful standard of comparison they feel a need to relate to.

I think religious people are using a damn good metaphor, perhaps by definition the best metaphor, but they fail to make the distinction between metaphorical thought and empirical observation. You can confirm this simply by directly questioning a deeply religious person about the specifics of God. After a few weak and un-thought-out attempts at factual assertions, they become quite content to simply not make any empirical claims whatsoever. They refuse to say anything falsifiable, only reasserting that it is their choice/faith to think this way, and that it has immense personal meaning. They suppose that without actual belief in a literal God entity, their mind will lose the ability to think in terms of that metaphor. Atheists make the same mistake. In my opinion, it's simply a lack of imagination.

So there you go. I was only describing my use of a metaphor, that's why I said what I said about the "mind of God" idea being neither correct nor incorrect.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: laserpig]
    #14620863 - 06/16/11 02:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Years ago, you could hardly find ANY books which discussed psychedelics! So imagine when I found Grof's book Realms of the Human Unconcsious in a library--I went ballistic and almost begam a preacher for Grof lol. I went on to read more of his books

But then I started to try and find critiques of his ideas--I am always disturbed when there is no other view of a person, no matter how 'great' they are, but all i found was praise. Noticeably all from men.

The first critique I read of his ideas was from Monica Sjoo in her book which deeply critiques the New Age titled Return of the Dark/Light Mother or New Age Armageddon? Towards a Feminist Vision of the Future

This other source, also written by a woman reflects Sjoo's concerns about Grofian 'philosophy':

Quote:

It is important to note that some of Grof's commentaries on perinatal matrices are often sexist, bordering on misogynist. In his work he blames the aggression of the mother for trauma to the fetus. In particular his commentary on the "violence" of the birth and his presentation of the mother as an enemy of the fetus is, by today's standards, unacceptable (1976, pp. 104-105, 108, & 115). No doubt in some cases (dysfunctional mother, dysfunctional family situation) the mother may be superficial cause of perinatal trauma. However it is important to look to the social situation, political, economic, and even medical history to look for the actual roots of perinatal trauma. For example, raising a child in conditions of poverty would, without a doubt, cause significant perinatal trauma. In the case when society and the political structures fail to provide adequate supports for a parent (or parents) to raise a child in a stress free environment, it is the social and/or political structure that should be faulted and not the parent.”




Also when he desribes his 'perinatal 3'phase involving 'Walpurgis Night' and disseminates the myth of the 'evil witch' withOUT going into the deep ingrained fear of the Wise Woman that was inculcated into the human psyche by the many years of the Christian Inquisition. Ie, he assumes it is some kind of natural automatic reponse, but in doing so, for me, continues the patriarchal denigration of the Wise Woman who was called demonic and a 'witch' by the patriarchal mindset prevailing--and which still does!

Grof emphasizes the 'going inside' of the psyche both for his LSD psychotherapy, and HB (I have done two solo DIY session of HB and it is powerful but i cried so much my eyes smarted for days!), and seems to dismiss observational insights. I dont. I feel that observational experience is AS deep --and I dont like this divide between 'inner' which is his psychoanlaytical influences as shrink, and 'outer'.

I also dont really dig his insistance that his 'inner journey' is THE 'cartography'. No it isn't, and other people not influenced by his prelimanry setting will have other different kinds of experiences.


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Re: Mysticism- Stanislav Grof [Re: zzripz]
    #14621045 - 06/16/11 05:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Organized Religion [Re: OneU]
    #14621773 - 06/16/11 10:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OneU said:
It's very similar to pranyama (eg: fire breathing) from what I gather but I had forgotten this selection as well.

Thanks for watching :sun:




hey man, i had a question for you.

when i was incorporating fire breath into my yoga practice, i would experience a metallic taste in the back of my tongue/throat area (which i'm guessing would be toxins leaving the body?)

do you have much experience with fire breathing over extended practice?

had you found yourself in anyway changed in comparison to other breathing techniques?

and also what would your "favorite" breathing techniques be?

i'm always interested in talking to other people about yoga, especially people with some experience, so thanks for your time man.


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


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