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OfflineGrapefruit
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UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation
    #14574930 - 06/07/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

*Being a film maker, let me begin with that word 'creativity'. Much has been said on this subject.
What do you have to say about it?

There is no such thing as creativity at all. All that people do is imitate something or the other that already exists. Only when you do not use anything as a model, what emerges can be called creativity and that cannot be used again as a model for future acts of yours. And there it ends. If you look at human faces or even those leaves--no two faces are the same, no two leaves are the same.

*Behind the changes in nature there seems to be some kind of plan or purpose, don't you think?

I don't see any plan or scheme there at all! There is a process--I wouldn't necessarily call it
evolution--but when it slows down then a revolution takes place. Nature tries to put
something together and start all over again, just for the sake of creating. This is the only
true creativity. Nature uses no models or precedents and so has nothing to do with artper
se.

*Do you mean to say there is nothing to the creativity of artists, poets, musicians and sculptors?

Why do you want to place art on a higher level than craft? If there is no market for an
artist's creation, he will be out of business. It is the market that is responsible for all these
so-called artistic beliefs. An artist is a craftsman like any other craftsman. He uses that tool
to express himself. All human creation is born out of sensuality. I have nothing against
sensuality. All art is a pleasure movement. Even that (the pleasure) has to be cultivated by
you. Otherwise you have no way of appreciating the beauty and art that artists are talking
about. If you question their creation, they feel superior, thinking that you don't have taste.
Then they want you to go to a school to learn how to appreciate their art. If you don't enjoy
a poem written by a so-called great poet, they forcibly educate you to appreciated poetry.
That is all that they are doing in the educational institutions. They teach us how to
appreciate beauty, how to appreciate music, how to appreciate painting and so on.
Meanwhile they make a living off you. Artists find it comforting to think that they are
creative: 'creative art', 'creative ideas', 'creative politics'. It's nonsense. There is nothing
really creative in them in the sense of their doing anything original, new or free. Artists pick something here and something there, put it together and think they have created
something marvelous. They are all imitating something that is already there. Imitation and
style are the only 'creativity' we have. Each of us has our own style according to the school
we attended, the language we were taught, the books we have read, the examinations we
have taken. And within that framework again we have our own style. Perfecting style and
technique is all that operates there. You will be surprised that one of these days computers
will paint and create music much better than all the painters and musicians that the world
has produced so far. It may not happen in our lifetime but it will happen. You are no
different from a computer. We are not ready to accept that because we are made to believe
that we are not just machines--that there is something more to us. You have to come to
terms with this and accept that weare machines. The human intellect that we have
developed through education, through all kinds of techniques is no match for nature. They
(creative activities) assume importance because they have been recognized as expressions
of spiritual, artistic and intellectual values. The drive for self-expression is born out of
neurosis. This applies to the spiritual teachers of mankind too. There is no such thing as a
direct sense-experience. All forms of art are nothing but an expression of sensuality.

* Is there something more to self-expression U.G.? Having had a tremendous experience of some
kind you want to relate it to somebody or maybe just replay it to yourself? Is there anything to this
over-riding need to express oneself?

There is no such thing as my experience and your experience. When you experience
something you think it is something extraordinary and naturally the need arises to share
that experience with somebody else. When you and I go out for a walk you naturally look
at something that you have not looked at before and it is something extraordinary for you.
And when you say to yourself this is something extraordinary that you have not seen
before there is a need for you--which is a part of your self fulfillment--to share that pleasure
with somebody else. Whatever you experience has already been experienced by someone
else. Your telling yourself, 'Ah! I am in a blissful state,' means that someone else before you
has experienced that and has passed it on to you. Whatever may be the nature of the
medium through which you experience, it is a second-hand, third-hand, and last-hand
experience. It is not yours. There is no such thing as your own experience. Such
experiences, however extraordinary, aren't worth anything.

* We want to know what truth is. We want to know what enlightenment is.
You already know it. Don't tell me that you don't. There is no such thing as truth at all.




How much of human expression, if any comes from an original and perhaps truthful place? Is art simply the imitation of culture and the psyche or it can it be born from what you might describe as real and natural in any way?

I know RGV takes an interest in this topic and if he's about I like to hear his piece.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14574998 - 06/07/11 03:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I tend to agree. Course I'm just a craftsman and not much of that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Icelander]
    #14575062 - 06/07/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

One of the places where he almost seems to contradict himself is where he says nature is true creativity because it is without a model. It strikes me that if that's the case then any person and anything they create is also a part of this true creativity. There has been this idea of "true will" in certain philosophical schools of thought, where the human aligns with natures well I guess this also could sounds wishy washy but UG presents a similar idea in his description of "the natural state", his description of it doesn't coincide with others and he claims the desire of expression is simply born from neurosis and somehow in conflict with art. Expression is not neccessarily born from a need but it could be argued that it too is a natural tendency. Why not? This expression could be ingrained into us, not in conflict with natural tendencies. At the end of the day; if we're going to discuss any tendency at all, each of us can only do our best to describe how we are functioning. You can't neccessarily apply this to others, it may just be projection on UGs part.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14575101 - 06/07/11 03:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

In the beginning there was something "new" created by the first man but based squarely on the model that nature provides. Everything we can do comes from our interaction with our natural environment.  My guess


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Icelander]
    #14575316 - 06/07/11 04:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Here I am riding on my original invention.



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14575507 - 06/07/11 05:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You're looking good these days.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14575526 - 06/07/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here I am riding on my original invention.





Your invention is bad and you should feel bad.


--------------------


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: NetDiver]
    #14575557 - 06/07/11 05:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Reading some of aphex twins interviews he claims he creates music purely out of boredom, prefers to listen to his own music and doesn't release his best tracks in case anyone else imitates them.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14575756 - 06/07/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)
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That is why I never released this snippet.


--------------------


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14575787 - 06/07/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)
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Oh, I forgot, you are a raver. This is the closest I have to trance. Obviously it is unfinished - just a scratch pad.


--------------------


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14576048 - 06/07/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

u.g often condradicted himself doesnt mean he wasn't on to something though. our world is full of falsely claimed truths which causes many problems psychologically and sociologicaly. drop the idea of truth and adopt a maleable working theory. maleable enough that it wont cause you any resistence or suffering if it has to change. the ideas of pride and greed are long since useful in society so why havent we overcome them? we can evolve through knowledge and intelligence its just the belief that these things are useful and justified which keep them in use. the same thing goes for millions of other ideas which are no longer useful and are now a burden on society. im going to start a thread soon to make a list (virus database)


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: zoomfan]
    #14576085 - 06/07/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

u.g often condradicted himself doesnt mean he wasn't on to something though.




So inconsistency is a sign of flexibility? Not buying it.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14576100 - 06/07/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Everyone is inconsistent from what I've seen.  He's got some good ideas (to me) and that's all he's worth. No one to follow or venerate but from what he says he's not after that.

My question would be, why if someone doesn't want to be followed don't they mind their own business and keep to themselves?  It's not like he supposedly believes anyone needs what he says.  Something a little fishy about that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14576111 - 06/07/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It is and it isn't.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14576118 - 06/07/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Primarily I think he just wanted to get people to think for themselves and show how flimsy peoples thought and belief structures were. He once stated he was on a mission to refute every statement he ever made. I read a report of a film maker who stayed with him for a month, everyone who knew him agreed that he never seemed to make much sense and was unbearable for more than short periods of time but that you did feel somehow lighter after meeting him.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14576133 - 06/07/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds like a lot of bs to me.  Why did he want to show anyone anything or get people to think for themselves. Why should he care?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (06/07/11 07:16 PM)


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Icelander]
    #14576141 - 06/07/11 07:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My question would be, why if someone doesn't want to be followed don't they mind their own business and keep to themselves?  It's not like he supposedly believes anyone needs what he says.  Something a little fishy about that.




Supposedly he was actually a very caring guy on a personal level despite claiming not to be.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14576147 - 06/07/11 07:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Caring about what?  Did he think he had the truth and could save people?:pope:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Icelander]
    #14576160 - 06/07/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If you want to question anything, question his words. His motivations are irrelevant to whatever value his work has, if it has any. Hitler's motivations didn't make the gas chambers burn any colder. Why be suspicious of him anyway?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: UG Krishnamurti on art, creativity and imitation [Re: Icelander]
    #14576171 - 06/07/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If I understand him correctly, he was one of those people shouting that no one does.


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