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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: memes]
    #14581419 - 06/08/11 07:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
At any rate, economists are nearly unanimous in their assessment that it prevented a total collapse of the economy at the time



Oh yes.  I will definitely agree with this.  THe bailout was certainly necessary. 


Doesn't make it good at what it was supposed to be good at :shrug:




He wasn't talking about the bailout.  Except for the auto companies we have made a profit on the bailout, even counting AIG.  This is about the trillion dollar porkulus fiasco.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14582496 - 06/08/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Ahhhhhhh ok.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: memes]
    #14583093 - 06/09/11 01:18 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Let's be real here.  A few million jobs saved?  Thats obscene.



Fine, that was estimate before the bailout assuming GM and Chrysler went out of business, and brought their suppliers down with them.  Today, it seems that nearly all current articles I could find on the topic point to the Center for Automotive Research (CAR) report which says just over 1.4 million jobs were saved by the auto bailout.  That's still a decent amount.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14583110 - 06/09/11 01:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

find me some numbers NOT published by the people asking for money.  kthnx.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14583173 - 06/09/11 02:08 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You cited the White House?:rofl2::facepalm:



Care to point out the falsehoods in that White House statement?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think bankruptcy should be friendly to those going bankrupt?



No.



Thank you.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Perhaps you're not familiar with the concept of stimulus spending?




:rofl2::facepalm:  Right.  That worked real well.



1.4 million jobs saved ain't too shabby. 

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You'd probably still support him if he shot up a room full of school children.  Kool-aid, anyone?.



I don't support him.  But the auto bailout was necessary.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
At any rate, economists are nearly unanimous in their assessment that it prevented a total collapse of the economy



Economists are most definitely not in agreement about that



How about this (The Wall Street Journal):
Quote:

Thirty-eight of the 54 surveyed economists, not all of whom answered every question, said the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act boosted growth and mitigated job losses, while six said the legislation had a net negative effect.



So more than 70% believe the stimulus helped, while 11% believe it didn't.  "Nearly unanimous"?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/09/11 02:17 AM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: memes]
    #14583179 - 06/09/11 02:12 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
find me some numbers NOT published by the people asking for money.  kthnx.



I found you the numbers that every article I could find on the subject references, which provides a fairly extensive analysis to back their numbers up.  If you know of a better source of information, please share.  If not, what are you basing your opinion on?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14583401 - 06/09/11 04:21 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Even if Obama is correct, it cost $14 billion to save 1 million jobs?  Ouch...


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14584061 - 06/09/11 08:21 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

meams said:
Let's be real here.  A few million jobs saved?  Thats obscene.



Fine, that was estimate before the bailout assuming GM and Chrysler went out of business, and brought their suppliers down with them.  Today, it seems that nearly all current articles I could find on the topic point to the Center for Automotive Research (CAR) report which says just over 1.4 million jobs were saved by the auto bailout.  That's still a decent amount.



It is also fictitious.  Production would have moved to other more competitive entities that the suppliers still would be supplying.  Eliminating companies that can't compete does not eliminate the demand for their product.  It just shifts it to companies that can compete.  The number of jobs is not determined by who works for Chrysler and GM but by who works in the auto industry.  Think of the jobs lost that other companies would have added in order to increase their production to replace the GM and Chrysler products.  And all the jobs lost because money was taken from creditors who no longer have it which they maybe could have used to create, wait for it, OTHER JOBS.

The auto bailout came out of TARP, not the trillion dollar Porkulus. 

The President is a lying fuck who thinks the voters are idiots.  Some of them are.


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OfflineFink Ployd
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14584571 - 06/09/11 09:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

zappaisgod, I was just about to say the same fucking thing. Thank the Universe for someone out there with half a brain.

The very term bailout should not be in our government's vocabulary. If you fail, you fail. Jobs are not permanent, ever. Jobs are not the federal government's problem.

We need to create more wealth, more value to our society! Useless and undesired jobs don't do that. Government jobs don't do that. Tax cuts, less regulation, and more innovation do that.

It is sickening to hear someone say we shouldn't have trusted the state governors because some did it right and some didn't...that is so fucking sick. That is the way it is supposed to be. 50 different ways of doing something and then let the way that works dissolve to the rest of the society. Really, we should start at the community and work up to the state and if absolutely necessary in the most dire situations we go to the federal government.

Fuck the federal government, fuck obama, fuck bailouts, fuck social security, fuck medicare, fuck the EPA, fuck all government employees who aren't willing to take a pay cut, fuck all the other wasteful federal regulations that are completely sucking this country dry. We need to get the power out of D.C. before we're all fucked.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Fink Ployd]
    #14588164 - 06/09/11 10:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Fine, that was estimate before the bailout assuming GM and Chrysler went out of business, and brought their suppliers down with them.  Today, it seems that nearly all current articles I could find on the topic point to the Center for Automotive Research (CAR) report which says just over 1.4 million jobs were saved by the auto bailout.  That's still a decent amount.




It is also fictitious.  Production would have moved to other more competitive entities that the suppliers still would be supplying.  Eliminating companies that can't compete does not eliminate the demand for their product.  It just shifts it to companies that can compete.  The number of jobs is not determined by who works for Chrysler and GM but by who works in the auto industry.  Think of the jobs lost that other companies would have added in order to increase their production to replace the GM and Chrysler products.  And all the jobs lost because money was taken from creditors who no longer have it which they maybe could have used to create, wait for it, OTHER JOBS.




This is actually understood by the Center for Automotive Research:

  • By the end of 2010, Ford and international producers fully resume production and replace 30 percent of GM/Chrysler production.
  • Ford and international producers will hire new employees in 2010 as they replace 30 percent of GM/Chrysler production. The majority of the new employment will be hourly manufacturing workers; some non-manufacturing workers (salaried) will also be hired, but the ratio of salary-to-hourly for these new hires will be far less than what it was at GM or Chrysler.
  • The level of imported vehicles and parts rises
  • Imports will replace the remaining 70 percent of lost GM/Chrysler production.


Quote:

Fink Ployd said:
zappaisgod, I was just about to say the same fucking thing. Thank the Universe for someone out there with half a brain.



I'm thankful too.  It makes it easy for those with a full brain.  :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14588445 - 06/09/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Ummm, I think most of the people in this thread have forgotten that when Chrysler and GM "paid" back this money that they paid it with another loan that they got from the U.S. government, just a different "account". If you took $1000 loan out on your credit card and then got another card from the same bank and used it to pay your previous card off then you would be paying it back just like they did. Oh wait thats right you wouldn't be paying anything. Also for those of you in here that think the "rich" should be taxed more to relieve some of that burden the middle class pays, read. If you would do the slightest bit of research you would know that because of rich people and those "evil" corporations making "obscene" profits, you have a much easier and better quality life. When is the last time you paid $40000 in property taxes? Oh thats right never, but you probably got to use some of that $40000 when you sent your kid to school, when did you last right out a check at the end of the year to the U.S. Treasury for $25000 on top of the $30000 plus they stole from you during the year? Oh wait, I bet you never have, but when you drove to work this morning you got to look at those $3000 signs telling you what exit you are getting off of. If you think the rich have it so easy then start providing a good or service that people are willing to pay you for so you can make a million? It is just so easy right? Selfishness is a virtue, if not for those "greedy" "scumbags" some of you are so fond of calling them, your life would suck, you would have no computer to be on right now, you would have no cars, no flat screen 50" plasmas, no "free" health-care, stop blaming them because you are poor and want something for nothing. Most millionaires in this country are self made, lots of hard work, or a really great idea is how they got there, usually a lot of both. They did not get rich by fleecing anyone, they got rich by providing you with something that you were willing to pay them for. Stop buying there goods and services and they will be broke like you want them to be.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14588452 - 06/09/11 11:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Zappa and FinkPloyd thanks for not believing this same tired rhetoric.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14588559 - 06/10/11 12:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Ummm, I think most of the people in this thread have forgotten that when Chrysler and GM "paid" back this money that they paid it with another loan that they got from the U.S. government, just a different "account".



The links above say you're wrong.  Care to share your source, or are you making your facts up?

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
for those of you in here that think the "rich" should be taxed more to relieve some of that burden the middle class pays, read. If you would do the slightest bit of research you would know that because of rich people and those "evil" corporations making "obscene" profits, you have a much easier and better quality life.



I agree.  For those of you that do the slightest bit of research, that's what you'd know.  On the other hand, for those of you that did a lot more research, or got a college degree in business or economics, then you'd know better.  Ever wonder why the country's top colleges are so liberal?

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
When is the last time you paid $40000 in property taxes? Oh thats right never, but you probably got to use some of that $40000 when you sent your kid to school, when did you last right out a check at the end of the year to the U.S. Treasury for $25000 on top of the $30000 plus they stole from you during the year? Oh wait, I bet you never have, but when you drove to work this morning you got to look at those $3000 signs telling you what exit you are getting off of.



Welcome to civilized society where all citizens can go to school and share the roads with the rich.  Are you against this?

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
If you think the rich have it so easy then start providing a good or service that people are willing to pay you for so you can make a million? It is just so easy right?



It’s relatively easy if you come from a rich family.  If not, starting your own business is more difficult, but achievable.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Selfishness is a virtue, if not for those "greedy" "scumbags" some of you are so fond of calling them, your life would suck, you would have no computer to be on right now, you would have no cars, no flat screen 50" plasmas, no "free" health-care, stop blaming them because you are poor and want something for nothing.




Actually, there wasn’t a significant middle class until after Government made the “New Deal” and passed laws that strengthened the power of organized labor. 

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Most millionaires in this country are self made, lots of hard work, or a really great idea is how they got there, usually a lot of both. They did not get rich by fleecing anyone, they got rich by providing you with something that you were willing to pay them for.



And it should stay that way.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14588618 - 06/10/11 12:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Under the financing terms announced last week, Chrysler secured $3.2 billion in bonds, a $3 billion term loan and a $1.3 billion revolving credit facility. The company also received $1.3 billion in cash from Fiat in exchange for its stock purchase. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304520804576343460156383524.html
There is your link for the "repayment"
I did make up the WSJ though. . .

So how is your life not better because of rich people" Do you live in a mud hut and use your brain to log on the web? And what do colleges being liberal have anything to do with anything? Libs could run every school, it does not make them right.

I am against it, no one should have to pay a dime for someone else to be educated, if you want yourself or your children to learn, teach them or pay for them to go to school, education and transportation are not proper roles for government to assume.

It is not easy, not even relatively, to start or maintain a successful buss iness if you come form a rich family. Any new endeavor is tough, regardless of your economic background, G.W. Bush Jr. failed miserably in the oil buss iness, even with millions in backing.

As far as the New Deal goes, what a joke, giving unions the power to hold a company hostage was a terrible idea. Why should employees working for a company be able to hold it hostage? It is there company and no one else has a right to say how they conduct themselves in the workplace, if they make a policy you do not like, leave. No one comes to your house and rounds you up for work, it is a voluntary choice.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14588721 - 06/10/11 01:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I forgot to ask, for anyone in here that thinks that it was necessary for any of the bailouts, are you in your parents basement right now, eating a tv dinner mom made you and smoking some dope that you bought with the allowance your parents doled out to you?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14588724 - 06/10/11 01:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
Under the financing terms announced last week, Chrysler secured $3.2 billion in bonds, a $3 billion term loan and a $1.3 billion revolving credit facility. The company also received $1.3 billion in cash from Fiat in exchange for its stock purchase.



I read the article and it disproves your point.  They paid the loan back with private financing, not "with another loan that they got from the U.S. government" as you claimed.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
So how is your life not better because of rich people" Do you live in a mud hut and use your brain to log on the web?



I've earned millions of dollars for my company, making the owners better off.  I've done them a big favor; it's not nearly as much the other way around.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
And what do colleges being liberal have anything to do with anything? Libs could run every school, it does not make them right.



You obviously haven't attended a top college.  Students are taught how the scientific method works, and how to think for themselves.  They don't just swallow what the rich try to make them think.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
I am against it, no one should have to pay a dime for someone else to be educated, if you want yourself or your children to learn, teach them or pay for them to go to school, education and transportation are not proper roles for government to assume.




So you're saying we should be more like Sudan, Congo, Chad, etc.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
It is not easy, not even relatively, to start or maintain a successful buss iness if you come form a rich family. Any new endeavor is tough, regardless of your economic background, G.W. Bush Jr. failed miserably in the oil buss iness, even with millions in backing.



Agreed - it's not "easy", but "easier".  It takes money to make money.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
As far as the New Deal goes, what a joke, giving unions the power to hold a company hostage was a terrible idea. Why should employees working for a company be able to hold it hostage?



So they can get fair wages, that's why.

Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
It is there company and no one else has a right to say how they conduct themselves in the workplace, if they make a policy you do not like, leave. No one comes to your house and rounds you up for work, it is a voluntary choice.



Work is most definitely not voluntary.  Do you think people work for the fun of it?  People have no choice if they want decent food shelter, and healthcare.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14588792 - 06/10/11 02:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah I think that I am going to end my conversation with you here, you obviously are wearing some awesome rose colored shades. If you look into the finances you will see the loans are coming only from companies that have taken TARP funds, so I am pretty sure they are still borrowing taxpayer dollars.

If you think you are doing them a favor then quit, start your own company and earn your own millions. I highly doubt you have earned them even one million, if you had then you would know how hard it is to produce that much wealth.

No I have not, I have no need for a "top" college, I am not sure how much a degree from Yale could help me compared to my degree from culinary school and Xavier. Oh wait, thats right, Xavier is a top college for business in this country.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying, we should kill each other because of our religious beliefs and denounce science, physics, and philosophy. We should also begin having sex with virgins to cure AIDS, sounds like a great idea. No I just do not agree with having to pay for someone elses child to learn while I could be saving that money for my children's private school fund. It is not the role of government to provide educational resources. There are two things a government is good for, mitigating contracts and defense. THATS IT!

People can get fair wages without robbing a company of its right to conduct business, they may have to work for it though, you probably do not like that idea though. You must be against that if you think that holding a company hostage is an ok way to earn your wealth.

Agh, my favorite, work is not voluntary!!! ROFLMAO!!! It is COMPLETELY voluntary, no one puts a gun to your head and says work or die, not in this country. Your response is perfect, "Work is most definitely not voluntary.  Do you think people work for the fun of it?  People have no choice if they want decent food shelter, and health care." Ummm, yes, in the literal sense people do work for the "fun" of it. Not the job itself but they work so they can have "fun" and enjoy there life. You know to buy things, like a house, a car, porn, drugs, a dog, whatever it is that you want to make you happy. Anyone that spouts off that money cannot buy happiness just does not know what to buy, it most definitely does buy happiness, you just have to know what you want. Oh and you kind of proved my point about it being voluntary when you said  "they have no choice IF THEY WANT, decent food, shelter, and health care. Those things are not needed for survival, you could have crappy food, no health care, and be homeless and still survive. They make a choice to either have or have not those things, all by themselves!

Money does not corrupt men, men corrupt there money.

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OfflinePileusSonofGalt
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: PileusSonofGalt]
    #14588828 - 06/10/11 02:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I also forgot to ask, what about the 5.1 billion that they "borrowed" from taxpayers in January 09'? They must have paid that already and just not said anything. Obviously our government and the company who borrowed the money to save them from going under would not lie to us. If bailing them out was really going to work then why are we doing it again so soon for Chrysler? They did this just a hair over twenty years ago and lok where we are at now. Great job!

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14589790 - 06/10/11 10:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

PileusSonofGalt said:
It is not easy, not even relatively, to start or maintain a successful buss iness if you come form a rich family. Any new endeavor is tough, regardless of your economic background, G.W. Bush Jr. failed miserably in the oil buss iness, even with millions in backing.



Agreed - it's not "easy", but "easier".  It takes money to make money.




So fucking what.  My parents worked hard and have money, and now i get to use it to help myself.  YOU DONT GET TO 'EVEN TEH PLAYING FIELD' JUST BECUASE YOU CAME OUT ON TEH SHITTY END OF THE GODDAMN STICK.

Fuck redistribution of wealth.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama's Auto Industry Success [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14589805 - 06/10/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

  Ever wonder why the country's top colleges are so liberal?




Nope.  Never have wondered because I know why.  By and large they don't have the balls to put their talents, if they have any, at risk.  This is also one of the reasons why colleges in the United States have some of the most extreme free speech restrictions found anywhere in the country.  They are a largely cowardly population.  And it isn't just the top colleges.  It is almost all of them.  This pattern can also be found in the entertainment industry and the news media.  Those that can't do teach or criticize.  It isn't that hard to do either one.


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* Wal-Mart Bows to Unions, Copies GM Success Formula SoopaX 1,580 17 08/24/05 09:51 PM
by LeftyBurnz
* Collapse of Industrial Civilization
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NiamhNyx 4,252 66 02/22/04 01:35 PM
by Protester
* Job Outsourcing
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by Evolving
* dear right wingers
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KingOftheThing 2,790 23 08/03/05 05:50 PM
by z@z.com
* As Stalin used to say, we're "dizzy with success." Psilocybeingzz 619 14 01/29/03 03:45 AM
by Xlea321
* Union wages and outsourcing JesusChrist 840 8 03/17/05 10:03 AM
by afoaf

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