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SomeGuy
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help with the old mary-jane, a pic
#14573037 - 06/07/11 06:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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ok, so, I am starting a new indoor grow. The last time I did it was over 10 years ago, so I need to brush up. Before my last grow, I bought the book, "marijuana botony" by jorge Cervantes and read it several times. Just like mushrooms, when I came to this site I had just read TMC, and then I found out half of that info was outdated or incorrect. Is there anything in MB that I should disregard? What I currently have is 2 250w HPS streetlights. Only one is hooked up in this pic, I plan to use the other to fruit. Back in the day, I read that 50w/sq. ft. was the max a plant could utilize, does that still sound good? I was thinking some sidewalls with dimensions of 2'6" square would do the trick, what's your opinion? Is that overkill? (in the watts/sq. ft dept.) Do you think these reflectors (came out of the streetlight) are suitable, or should I fabricate my own,"low-bay" style? Do you think the light spectrum is suitable, or should I get some "grow-light" style bulbs? Right now, my children are in 6" pots full of miracle-grow potting mix, what fertilizer do you reccomend? I want something I can buy at the store, and not some organic mail-order stuff. I have seen some pics of nice plants grown under cfls, think I should get some for side lighting? Anyone have any informative links? I signed up at the growery, but I'm still waiting for my confirmation e-mail. here's the pic all suggestions welcome...help a honky out!
Edited by SomeGuy (06/07/11 12:41 PM)
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joshisstoned
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy]
#14573058 - 06/07/11 06:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Looks good. I know u know this but... Just make sure u keep all mycology stuff out of the direct light of the hid light. Sunlight or hid light will hamper growing of mycelium etc. Other than that... Looks good. Ull be fine.
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KBG1977
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: joshisstoned]
#14574199 - 06/07/11 12:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I want to see the children
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SomeGuy
I feel better now :)


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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: KBG1977]
#14574216 - 06/07/11 12:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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out of my 13 proported pinecone-kush seeds, only one survived he's about 5 in. tall and has one set of 5 leaflet leafs, I could take a pic, if you must see, but it don't look like much
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SomeGuy
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy]
#14574274 - 06/07/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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there, I added a pic of it to the OP
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KBG1977
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy]
#14574359 - 06/07/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You better treasure that with your life,and hope it's a she
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SomeGuy
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: KBG1977]
#14574366 - 06/07/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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yea, no shit. If it's not, I'll breed it with some of these mid seeds I got and try to find a good one to clone
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KBG1977
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy]
#14574374 - 06/07/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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there ya go :-)
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jokefox
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: KBG1977]
#14574754 - 06/07/11 02:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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first of ,, you need a MH for veg, even though a HPS can be used, its not recommended, also , you will get growth , but nothing really with out the proper bulb
i mean look at this one i grew, it lasted a month before spider mites this is it at 2 weeks
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Lipa Kreepa
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: KBG1977] 1
#14574803 - 06/07/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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dude miracle grow is garbage for growing weed. never ever use that for weed plants man. i suggest going to yer local hydrostore and buying a bag of some organic goodness, yer children will love u for it man.
why is it bad? the little beads of fertalizer is why. weed plants need to be watered often, and an when u do so, this opens up the fert capsules too quickly and burns the plnts to death. always use an organic soil and fertalize manually, with some decent liquid stuff.
u could rig up a homeade reflector if u wanted but honestly for where u are right now, it looks like what u have is doing adecent job. use some mylar or even the insides of foil potato chip bags if u are in a pinch. keep a fan blowing ontop the light to divert trhe heat awy from that hps. without a vent hood and a fan, that shit can get really hot quick, even if its just a 250w. personally i wouldve started them off with some floros and then after a few leaf sets then id break out the hps, but to each his own. ive always had better results from starting them in cooler, floro lit environment when the plants are babt seedlings.
to answer yer other question.... hold up, i have an awesome chart which will help u on the light distance from the top of yer plants. just give me a minute to dig around for it. i reccomend saving it for however long u intend in growing pot. i had the chart hanging on my wall for years when i use to grow.
seems like u picked a pretty good strain of seed there tho bud. unfortunately the soil u got is garbage. for yer sake i hope its evil nature hasnt already started to come out and reap havoc. since they are in beer cups, u should be cool to just wait it out until they need to be transplanted to the next size up container. but when u do this, please get something better for them dude. miracle grow is alrite for other types of plants, but its a known fact that its a marijuana killer. speaking off containers, i have another cool chart id like to share with u.... just gimme a minute to hunt for it. generally weed needs a galon of dirt per foot of growth.
-------------------- LOVE LIFE AND LIVE IT HARD! 'Great Spirit, today, let me touch the Earth so the Earth can touch me.' "I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.'" -- Vonnegut A monkey w/out his jungle is just an inmate-- lipa
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Lipa Kreepa
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: Lipa Kreepa] 1
#14574865 - 06/07/11 02:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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hgers the light chart one... tho im having probs finding the soil one, tho ill get to it soon and put it up for u. just hold up.
hang on to these tho, they can be a lifesaver sometimes

Edited by Lipa Kreepa (06/07/11 02:54 PM)
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Ieponumos
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: Lipa Kreepa]
#14574877 - 06/07/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lipa Kreepa said: dude miracle grow is garbage for growing weed. never ever use that for weed plants man. i suggest going to yer local hydrostore and buying a bag of some organic goodness, yer children will love u for it man.
why is it bad? the little beads of fertalizer is why. weed plants need to be watered often, and an when u do so, this opens up the fert capsules too quickly and burns the plnts to death. always use an organic soil and fertalize manually, with some decent liquid stuff.
u could rig up a homeade reflector if u wanted but honestly for where u are right now, it looks like what u have is doing adecent job. use some mylar or even the insides of foil potato chip bags if u are in a pinch. keep a fan blowing ontop the light to divert trhe heat awy from that hps. without a vent hood and a fan, that shit can get really hot quick, even if its just a 250w. personally i wouldve started them off with some floros and then after a few leaf sets then id break out the hps, but to each his own. ive always had better results from starting them in cooler, floro lit environment when the plants are babt seedlings.
to answer yer other question.... hold up, i have an awesome chart which will help u on the light distance from the top of yer plants. just give me a minute to dig around for it. i reccomend saving it for however long u intend in growing pot. i had the chart hanging on my wall for years when i use to grow.
seems like u picked a pretty good strain of seed there tho bud. unfortunately the soil u got is garbage. for yer sake i hope its evil nature hasnt already started to come out and reap havoc. since they are in beer cups, u should be cool to just wait it out until they need to be transplanted to the next size up container. but when u do this, please get something better for them dude. miracle grow is alrite for other types of plants, but its a known fact that its a marijuana killer. speaking off containers, i have another cool chart id like to share with u.... just gimme a minute to hunt for it. generally weed needs a galon of dirt per foot of growth.
That and fertilizer salts build up quickly with Miracle-Gro. This does not prove too much of a problem though if one is prudent enough to prevent buildup by thorough soil washing.
Mircale-Gro works in a pinch, but sucks long term. If you can't get anything that's "upper tier," Go with Mircle-Gro moisture control soil.
I agree though. Either start a compost pile (which you can pasteurize to make media which is equivalent to anything FoxFarm produces) or get some organic soil.
Also remember, when you are done with your plants, you're not done with your soil. Dump that shit in your compost pile for loamy goodness in a year or two.
One more thing, DON'T FORGET KELP. That shit is rich in micronutrients.
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Lipa Kreepa
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: Lipa Kreepa] 1
#14574907 - 06/07/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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alrite brother i found it. hers the link if u wanna check it out....
http://forums.cannabisculture.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=725893&site_id=1#import
heres another link that will answer many many questions for an aspiring young pot farmer
http://forums.cannabisculture.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1093945#Post1093945
"Here's how you can work it out yourself:
((TD + BD) /4)² × DP / 73.53 = Volume in Gallons
TD = Top Diameter of Pot (Inches) BD = Bottom Diameter of Pot (Inches) DP = Depth of Pot (Inches) "
heres the chart man....
-------------------- LOVE LIFE AND LIVE IT HARD! 'Great Spirit, today, let me touch the Earth so the Earth can touch me.' "I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.'" -- Vonnegut A monkey w/out his jungle is just an inmate-- lipa
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SomeGuy
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: Ieponumos]
#14574931 - 06/07/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks everybody! Lipa that chart rocks! I downloaded it I got those seeds out of a bag of the shit, paid $25/gram. It was good shit, but may or may not have been pinecone kush. 6 seeds originally came up and I had them in front of the window, and when I moved them under the light, all the others died. I'm probably gonna end up killing it. Jokefox, you bring up an interesting point. Spider mites I saw some little bugs, I hoped they were long-legged predator mites, and they were gonna eat the mushroom flies, but now I'm really scared Obviously, I don't know what I'm doing, should I just take it outside to live and start reading or you think I can help it survive long enough to get an education?
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jokefox
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy]
#14575082 - 06/07/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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there is no such thing as failure, just a learning curve im pretty sure you are getting an education
just use your space better
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SomeGuy
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: jokefox]
#14575129 - 06/07/11 03:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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?Quote:
jokefox said: just use your space better
any suggestions?
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jokefox
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy]
#14575163 - 06/07/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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better light would be the top of the list
id build a grow box, and there will need to be a fan to blow air around the plant and one to pull out heat of the light,
white walls for the box, white paint is most reflective,
it helps concentrate the light and i find keeps out the bugs,
if you dont want to build a box, a better light and a small fan will do the trick
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SomeGuy
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: jokefox]
#14575209 - 06/07/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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So... Is it not true that one can buy a mh conversion bulb for a hps ballast? I got these lights free and thats a good price. Do you think my oscillating fan blowing on it is not enough? I planned on putting up some walls, I just have this one little fellow, so far so I've been procrastinating. I appreciate the help
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Lipa Kreepa
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy] 1
#14575385 - 06/07/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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nah man for what u have u dont need to build anything. dont worry about a MH conversion bulb either man. HPS will veg the plants just fine. have 2 fans in there if u can. one to blow the heat away from the light and another to move the plants around. take the first one and position it to blow upward toward the light itself, so the wind will take the heat and move it elsewhere. the second will give the plants the wind that they need. dont have the plant fan going at an insanely fast speed so theyre flying around all over the place, but make sure that the wind is moving the plants around a bit. this will not only give them the air they need, but also the wind flow will strengthen the stems and help to thicken them up.
u could just use a few pieces of wood, painted white (that is the best color for boosting light reflection) and have them around the setup. if u didnt want to do white, then use mylar or, like i said earlier, the inside of chip bags (the foil ones, these are an excellent and cheap way to boost light. youd think theyd be the same as foil but in my experience they are a little bit better. i dont like foil personally. i like white boaRDS myself).
quote......"now I'm really scared Obviously, I don't know what I'm doing, should I just take it outside to live and start reading or you think I can help it survive long enough to get an education? "
educate yerself while u grow. youl fuck up thru each grow and learn thru experience. def read the squilly's links page (from cannabis culture) that i posted. the info in there is invaluable. it has everything u could ever want to know. id reccomend becoming a member at the CC boards too, this is the place i learned how to grow and there are people there who grow professionally and have been doing so for years and years. it isnt as banging and awesome as it was several years back but there are still many old hands there with mountains of knowledge and experience that are eager to help anyone in need with their grows. dont be scared man. things happen my man. i wouldnt take it outside for a while. this will likely fuck up the light schedule and cause stress for the plants. stress will cause serious hermaphrodism and this is always bad news. then again i dont wanna bum yer trip, but bagseed is almost always from a hermie mother. very rarely does this seed get created from natural pollination of a male and a female.... unless is was an outdoor crop (this is more common as the circumsyance of one leaving a male in the filed could very well transpire or even the pollen of a distant male can travel miles and miles in the wind to pollinate the females to create seed). i say this because if it wasnt pollinated outdoors then its from ahermie mother. i mention this because the offspring will likely follow suite of the mother plant. so youlprob get hermies plants. then again this might not be the end of the world dude so dont trip too hard. but unnessecary stress will influence this trait a lot stronger than it needs to be. no man, it looks like u have a nice setup there and if i were u, id finish it out with what u got.
why do u think the plants died when u moved them from sunlight to HPS? if i were to guess id say that they were likely cooked from the heat of the lamps. tho thats just a guess. having them too close to lights can absolutely do this. this is why i posted that chart dude a good old school method to determine wheter yer light is too close to yer babies is this: take yer hand and hold it out at the height that the plants tops are at in the grow space under the lamp. hold it their for about a minute. if its hot and feels like it hurts, then u have yer answer. if it is hurting u or causing discomfort, then its doing the same to yer young and fragile babies. raise the light until it doesnt do that anymore and set up the plants under them at the correct height
if i had a second guess it would be maybe bugs or over watering (damping off). how often are u watering and when u do judge when u need to water next? weed plants need to be on a wet/dry cycle to grow properly. meaning that they need to dry out a bit before they should be watered again. for beer cups, watering will def be more frequent than later in the grow with larger containers. taker yer finger and stick it in (on the side of the container away from the roots) about an inch to an inch and a half. it should be dry at this length before u rewater. always let it dry out before u water again. too much water will not only damp off the seedlings and kill tme but it will also promote insect infestation.
as far as a potential bug invasion, this very well might be the case dude. for that im not sure what to reccomend. honestly in my day, ive had a few bug ridden plants but for the most part ive been lucky and havent needed to resort to pesticides or whathaveu. sorry dawg, tho im sure squilly's links has a few links to help cover such a thing. but yeah man, if u are seeing plants with bugs either in the soil or on the leaves (usually on the underneith of the leaves), then this should be addressed immediately or theyll just keep the population of vermin growing faster than yer plants and yer garden will soon die off. spider mites and aphins are some nastey little fuckers, for yer sake i hope this isnt the case.
the good news is that u used bagseed and didnt lose a few $100 bucks on seed bank genetics. bagseed is an excellent way to learn the ropes. which is why i said to learn as u grow and not to be scared. if i was in yer position and i dropped $350 on blueberry seeds from DJ SHORT's seedbank then id be scared, but if they were free (as well as the lighting! u lucky dawg! ), then whatever....trial and error is "today's lesson"
good luck with the grow dude. if u need any more help dont be a stranger her eon the boards. wed all love to assist u, all the way to harvest and trim hash
much love brother
-------------------- LOVE LIFE AND LIVE IT HARD! 'Great Spirit, today, let me touch the Earth so the Earth can touch me.' "I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.'" -- Vonnegut A monkey w/out his jungle is just an inmate-- lipa
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SomeGuy
I feel better now :)


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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: Lipa Kreepa]
#14575440 - 06/07/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for the encouragement, Lipa, your awesome. They aren't in beer cups, they are " 6" basic planters" made by mainstays and bought at wal-mart. I water them every other day, just because They start to look dry. I've been successful at growing them under a streetlight before, 10 years ago, and it was a 175w mercury vapor. Needless to say, they were kinda stringy, but the buds matured. I got a quarter off of a 3 foot tall plant. Needless to say, I hope to do better. Duly noted, about the hemaphrodism. If I had to guess why they died, I'd say too much light/stress. Stupidly I started them in a paper towel and then transplanted. 3 days later I put them under the light. The end of the reflectores has a 2" dia. hole there, so I think I can just mount a computer fan to it.
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jokefox
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy]
#14575454 - 06/07/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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id get a conversion , thats me though, i have this thing where i want to do it all right
these little shrotcuts are the difference between 1 and 3 pounds,
although you could go outside, dig a hole thats 3 feet, place a piece of fish there, then cover it up with soil and put your plant in the same hole, the roots will get nice nutrients from the fish , sounds really odd, but i seen what it can do and getting hit with a kola that big was the same feeling as a baseball bat, its just wildlife you have to concern yourself about, thast where this plant called a piss-off-plant comes in handy,
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Lipa Kreepa
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy] 1
#14575490 - 06/07/11 05:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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cool man if u can hook up a fan to it, that would benefit the grow significantly. jusy make damn sure its moving the heat well. and if its helping but not doing the job 100%, then set up another plug in, oscillating fan and have that finish the job.
glad to see that u have an HPS this go round. mercury vapor is a garbage light to use, no offense. the psectrum is all wrong. youl likely see much better results from using an HPS. what type of light do intend on using for flowering? the 250 will cut it to some extent. but u wont be able to get more than one or two plants (tops) under one of those. trust me ive tried it several times and it just wont cut it for anything higher than 2 plants. and those two plants were tied up like crazy to maximize it to the fullest.
sorry yea they looked like they were in beer cups my bad. those are what most people use to start weed plants in. mostly because they are cheap and the perfect size. for growing weed, u want to gradually increase the size of the container by a little at a time. this is to help keep the root mass nice and knotted up to be dense. this dense root ball will help form tight, hard nugs and not a stringy loose shitty yield. so when they out grow the "beer cups" use something just a little bigger like a 6 incher or whathaveu. tho remember, like i said before, weed needs 1 galon of grow medium (dirt or whatever) for every foot of growth, please keep that in mind when rigging up containers. and never just jump from a "beer cup" to a 5 galon or whatever. do it gradually, even if u intend on finishing in such a large container. tho the chart should help u determine what size container to use for the next couple of pots to transplant in.
good luck dude. holla if u need some mo'info. i cant grow anymore, because of where i live (live with my mom and endangering family is always a no no), but i love to talk about growing because for years it was a hige passion of mine. one day id love to get back into it and set up a wicked little indoor garden. its a damn shame i have some killer beans that are just collecting dust at the moment. oh well the future will be good to me, im hoping

 
-------------------- LOVE LIFE AND LIVE IT HARD! 'Great Spirit, today, let me touch the Earth so the Earth can touch me.' "I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.'" -- Vonnegut A monkey w/out his jungle is just an inmate-- lipa
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jokefox
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: Lipa Kreepa]
#14575556 - 06/07/11 05:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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i disagree with starting weed in small cups, each time you trasplant you need to allow days to recover
if you started the seeds in a 10 or 5 gallon bucket, you can use those days for HST or topping, witch would be more beneficial , to harvest,
lipa , what cultivation experience do you actually have, i mean ive been growing weed since i was 13, so granted i dont have all the exp, but the stuff you say , i always try to avoid,
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Lipa Kreepa
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: jokefox] 1
#14575612 - 06/07/11 05:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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i dunno man i grew for about 6 years or so.
starting in small cups and working my way up to larger ones is how i was taught by the pro's over at cannabisculture.com. over there are growers from all over the world with many who have been growing for well over 10 years. most of them are from canada and they grow regualy for profit, so they kno what they are talking about. hey man u can do it however u want, i could start in a large one if u want but ive always had better results starting small and gradually increasing with time. to be honest ive never had too many probs with transplant shock and lengthy periods of recovery time. most of the time i transplanted, the plants resumed their noraml growth behavior in no time.
-------------------- LOVE LIFE AND LIVE IT HARD! 'Great Spirit, today, let me touch the Earth so the Earth can touch me.' "I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.'" -- Vonnegut A monkey w/out his jungle is just an inmate-- lipa
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jokefox
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: Lipa Kreepa]
#14575639 - 06/07/11 05:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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you know what, maybe i should try this, i mean , that would save so much fucking space,
ill give your post a plus one, since i cant leave ratings, but you got a +5 in my brain
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Lipa Kreepa
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: jokefox]
#14576736 - 06/07/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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yea man its great for space conservation alone. because u never kno what yer plants are sex wise u kno? so why start them off in a big ass bucket and be limited to only a few plants able to fit under the lamp? even if u have a larger powered light like a 400 watter, with 1-5galon buckets u can only fit a few under there and then what happens when sexing comes about and the majority is male.... or more typically half? that leaves one with just a few amount of plants left over and a lot of time wasted only to start over and try and catch up later on. tho thats not the reason why its good to start off in smaller cups, its a good point to be made. thanks for pointing that out. also, why start off with such a large amount of soil if the plant is going to be chucked anyway later on u kno? i dont wanna have to use a 1/5-1/3 of a bag of expensive soil for a roll of the dice when i could just get by with using a cup or two. conserving ingredients is a huge part of making the process of growing pot not such a heavy finacial weight. because im sure u kno from yer experience that all the ingredients for growing pot adds up and when its all said and dome it can be a bit expensive at times, esp in the beginning stages of growth.... when u gotta get the fresh bulbs, the ferts, and then the soil.
but yea unless it was a clone, i would never start it off in a large ass container. for me its all about fitting as many plants as i possibly can under that one or two lamps. and big ass multi galon buckets makes such a thing very difficult.
i apprecite u saying that about the rating and thing. tho hey man you made some good points as well dude and anyone who grows, wheter there a pro or just getting started, is totally cool with me keep growing dude.... you kno just as well as me, its more than a hobby its an identity, a passion and a lifestyle that exist in the shadows of secrecy and science
much love brother
-------------------- LOVE LIFE AND LIVE IT HARD! 'Great Spirit, today, let me touch the Earth so the Earth can touch me.' "I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.'" -- Vonnegut A monkey w/out his jungle is just an inmate-- lipa
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jokefox
Top of the chain



Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 6,231
Loc: never where I should be
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: Lipa Kreepa]
#14576790 - 06/07/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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much love
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SomeGuy
I feel better now :)


Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 7,496
Loc:
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: jokefox]
#14580360 - 06/08/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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how come you don't let people rate ya, jokefox?
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roombird
mescaline



Registered: 01/18/11
Posts: 932
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Re: help with the old mary-jane, a pic [Re: SomeGuy]
#14581008 - 06/08/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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another good site for cannabis is ICMAG.COM should check them out too
-------------------- Good people drink good beer-Hunter S. Thompson
WE Are the Music Makers and WE Are the Dreamers of Dreams no one truly goes insane; for we all are already. normality to us, is insanity to society.
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