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OfflinexFrockx
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Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea?
    #14568741 - 06/06/11 10:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well?

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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14568829 - 06/06/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm...there are some fundamental notions that you have to assume, and then you must define the concept and its defining factors...also "impossibility" and "proof..."  you know?  haha...so whether something is, impossible, say, needs a definition of impossible compared to say a state of un-impossible (not necessarily possible)...Then you have to assume that if I refute something, it can't be proven, and vice versa...ahhh there are so many things to describe haha.  Just think about this:  something you take for granted everyday isn't necessarily assumed by everybody (Me: This is an apple.  Solipsist:  No, that is a part of my consciousness yo! Me: Oh...well...I don't know if one of our views is vindicated over the other so...well...philosophical debate=really hard) 

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. lol.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14568875 - 06/06/11 11:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Pretty much.

Quote:

Those who claim for themselves to judge the truth are bound to possess a criterion of truth. This criterion, then, either is without a judge's approval or has been approved. But if it is without approval, whence comes it that it is truthworthy? For no matter of dispute is to be trusted without judging. And, if it has been approved, that which approves it, in turn, either has been approved or has not been approved, and so on ad infinitum.

-- Sextus Empiricus




So basically, if you decide something is true, then what criteria did you judge it by? And how did you figure out that the criteria you judged it by was true?


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OfflineGrizzlyBear
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14568902 - 06/06/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Agreed, it depends solely on the criteria you judge it by.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14568944 - 06/06/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Well?





Of course not.

Do a controlled experiment where only one variable is altered.  If the independant variable causes the purported dependant variable's status, than the experiment will show it.  This will prove the idea that the purported independant variable causes the status change in the dependant variable: such as a lever causing a light to go on.  This may indeed by proved in such an experiment.

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Pretty much.

Quote:

Those who claim for themselves to judge the truth are bound to possess a criterion of truth. This criterion, then, either is without a judge's approval or has been approved. But if it is without approval, whence comes it that it is truthworthy? For no matter of dispute is to be trusted without judging. And, if it has been approved, that which approves it, in turn, either has been approved or has not been approved, and so on ad infinitum.

-- Sextus Empiricus




So basically, if you decide something is true, then what criteria did you judge it by? And how did you figure out that the criteria you judged it by was true?





Clearly the criterion must itself be proven in its nature or presumed.  Where relevant, the premise itself may be tested via a controlled experiment to rule out false positive results if the purported mechanism of the experiment is erroneous and your dependant variable is caused by some other thing.  Generally this is done simply by isolating only one indpendant variable to be manipulated or where such isn't possible, trying all combinations of independant variables till the effects are mathmatically demonstrated via the results observed.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: johnm214]
    #14569392 - 06/06/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

At what point is something experimentally proven? How do we know when something is proved?

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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: johnm214]
    #14569401 - 06/06/11 01:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Well?





Of course not.

Do a controlled experiment where only one variable is altered.  If the independant variable causes the purported dependant variable's status, than the experiment will show it.  This will prove the idea that the purported independant variable causes the status change in the dependant variable: such as a lever causing a light to go on.  This may indeed by proved in such an experiment.

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Pretty much.

Quote:

Those who claim for themselves to judge the truth are bound to possess a criterion of truth. This criterion, then, either is without a judge's approval or has been approved. But if it is without approval, whence comes it that it is truthworthy? For no matter of dispute is to be trusted without judging. And, if it has been approved, that which approves it, in turn, either has been approved or has not been approved, and so on ad infinitum.

-- Sextus Empiricus




So basically, if you decide something is true, then what criteria did you judge it by? And how did you figure out that the criteria you judged it by was true?





Clearly the criterion must itself be proven in its nature or presumed.  Where relevant, the premise itself may be tested via a controlled experiment to rule out false positive results if the purported mechanism of the experiment is erroneous and your dependant variable is caused by some other thing.  Generally this is done simply by isolating only one indpendant variable to be manipulated or where such isn't possible, trying all combinations of independant variables till the effects are mathmatically demonstrated via the results observed.





Well, that appears to be a very experiential response.  For the sake of discussion I will label this view as that of an "empiricist."  But science, in theory, is only an analysis of likelihood.  There are still some uncertainties allocated to certain unknown factors (basically everything about black holes & dark matter & neutrinos right?  Sorry for my layman's understanding).  Take for instance the Heisenberg uncertainty principle; it's a model of an experiment which attributes a reason for the existence of outliers essentially.  It just says you can't know everything about a system i.e. all of the criterion for judgement...maybe haha idk.  But things which are "proved" mathematically or scientifically occasionally (extremely infrequently) do occasionally not follow rules or even laws....this can be analyzed philosophically with the principle of causality I thinks.....

Yes, an experiment will usually show correlation from something that is "proven."  Maybe approaching 100% of the time. but in math, the one time it doesn't happen means it's not QUITE a proof.  Which...means proofs don't exist as defined anyways...what's the significance?  idk.  I hate to be that guy who says "well...99% of the time..." but...I don't know how to validate my beliefs so I'll just say em for the sake of saying them.  Sorry for being so inconcise, my ideas are all over the place

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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14569450 - 06/06/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
At what point is something experimentally proven?




Something is experimentally proven when a sufficient (again, not an exact or set value) amount of trials have been conducted, and in which the correlation coefficient or whatever have you is approaching 1. Ideally, a hypothesis is proven when you assume it works infinite - K (a variable) times; then you prove it works K+1 times, using previously assumed principles (past laws, rules, etc) then you say, it should work (proof by induction.  There are other "ACCEPTABLE" proofs, but again, the context of the validity of a proof is subject to the criterion mentioned by earlier posters).  Which it does.  999999999999999999999999 out of 10000000000000000000000000000000 times (make sure the latter number is one greater than the first lol) 

Conversely, something can be socially, not scientifically, "proven," or accepted, when teh consensus accepts it.  (ZOMG the majority!  Oh fuck no!)  Your realityz are the realityz Big Brother says they are.  Your truths are the subjective truths of the society. 

Quote:

xFrockx said:
How do we know when something is proved?




Let me put it to you this way:  How do you know ANYTHING?

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14569611 - 06/06/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Something is experimentally proven when a sufficient (again, not an exact or set value) amount of trials have been conducted"

Then how do we know when something is proven if there is no criteria for when something is proved?

"Conversely, something can be socially, not scientifically, "proven," or accepted, when teh consensus accepts it.  (ZOMG the majority!  Oh fuck no!)  Your realityz are the realityz Big Brother says they are.  Your truths are the subjective truths of the society.  "

No such thing. All "societal truths" must be upheld by individuals.


"Let me put it to you this way:  How do you know ANYTHING?"

I don't know. I'm not sure that I do know anything.

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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14569890 - 06/06/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Something is experimentally proven when a sufficient (again, not an exact or set value) amount of trials have been conducted"

Then how do we know when something is proven if there is no criteria for when something is proved?






Read the whole thing.  I've given the criteria.  The correlation coefficient approaches 1.  But even then, go back to the original argument.  I personally believe that debate is a null task, as a correlation coefficient of 1 is valid only to me (i.e. some schooling and intelligent background etc.) and thus subjective, ultimately, and subject to the definitions talked about earlier. 
Quote:

xFrockx said:

"Conversely, something can be socially, not scientifically, "proven," or accepted, when teh consensus accepts it.  (ZOMG the majority!  Oh fuck no!)  Your realityz are the realityz Big Brother says they are.  Your truths are the subjective truths of the society.  "

No such thing. All "societal truths" must be upheld by individuals.





Ummm...how can you say that, objectively?  Have you taken anything from the posts above at all?  It is ... "impossible" to prove the existence of an objective universe outside of the image conjured up in the individual human mind. There is no objective statement to describe things.  Do you really believe you are absolutely right, validated, vindicated (there is no reference point, even, to judge yourself except for yourself and its culture, history, etc) Indeed, though, your statement is contradictory to most dystopian novel stories.  Or am I misunderstanding?  Societal truths do exist.  I can prove it to the best of my ability and to the limits set in the posts above.  In medieval Europe under Catholicism, feudal villagers believed that monsters lived in the forests.  How were the monsters any less real than the notion of space travel today?  They explain a phenomena to the best of their knowledge. How could you go about measuring how ridiculous something is, what scale is objective? Although grounded in fear the explanation is a cultural interpretation experienced by the consensus.  Or are you saying there is no consensus/social idea or construct without individuals?  In that case, I ask you, does a tree falling in a forest make a sound?  It's a semantic debate.  Define sound, define the scenario, does there need to be an observer to experience the sound?  What is sound?  Just waves? What if the tree makes no waves?  (hgihly unlikely) etc...
Quote:

xFrockx said:


"Let me put it to you this way:  How do you know ANYTHING?"

I don't know. I'm not sure that I do know anything.




Right-o.  How can you be sure that there is "no such thing" as a social idea?

I don't mean to scare you or offend you.  I'm not claiming to be enlightened myself.  But this approach of a certain self-consciousness is useful in many social situations.  Particularly in attempting to understand the relationship between the mind and the universe.  Distinction between things like object and subject, and the relationship between these two notions which seem inherently mutually exclusive (but are they?) 

Good luck on your journey.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14569894 - 06/06/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Some one refute this idea:

It is not wrong/immoral/evil to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14569948 - 06/06/11 03:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"How can you be sure that there is "no such thing" as a social idea?"

What are you even talking about? Where are "social ideas"?

If you can't even tell me where to look, then how can I even begin to imagine such a thing actually existing?

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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14569961 - 06/06/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Some one refute this idea:

It is not wrong/immoral/evil to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants.




Okay?

The debate at its core is circumstantial and subject to criteria as mentioned in the second post, I believe.

For ME, I believe it is NOT wrong/immoral/evil to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants whose continued existence would mean the destruction of something else I hold dear (humanity, Earth, ego...)

For ME, I believe it is NOT wrong/immoral/evil to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants to support a cause I weigh to be greater (their deaths lead to the cure for cancer, AIDS, spiritual evolution) 

For an animal in need of nutrition, I believe it is NOT wrong/immoral/evil [SUBJECT TO, FOR THE ANIMAL]to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants. 

You can twist the argument anyway you want with whatever STIGMA you want.  It's circumstantial, subject to criteria through which you view the world.  Listen to me, what is "right" or "wrong" or whatever human concept you would like to apply to an action is inherently subjective. These are ideas humans make up to make communication easier.  Yes, most people in a culture have similar definitions and world-views; that is the whole purpose of an intelligible language.  But do not preach to me how any one notion or idea or action is OBJECTIVELY "right" or "wrong" or "correct" or whatever human connotation you wish to apply.  You, as far as I am concerned, have the same value in judgement as I do.  You are not God, and do not have an objective perspective.  I shall do as I SUBJECTIVELY see fit.

Do you honestly believe that you would adhere to the statement you have stated objectively, consistently?  What of the circumstances?  See; there is no one statement that OBJECTIVELY exists, true, for EVERY PERSPECTIVE.  Materialist: There is no consciousness.  Solipsist:  There is body, or universe, or being. 

I ask you:  Tell me, which one is "right?"  And even if you give me an answer, how can you claim it to be justified in both your world view and mine and everyone else's? 

The debate ultimately searches for an objective reality.  Which seems yet to appear unless not human, or at least conscious (when we apply personal connotation)

QED?  lol idk im sorta pissed, sorry  <---vindication!  lol

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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14569979 - 06/06/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"How can you be sure that there is "no such thing" as a social idea?"

What are you even talking about? Where are "social ideas"?

If you can't even tell me where to look, then how can I even begin to imagine such a thing actually existing?




This is a tangent argument, but a social idea is "TV is good."

Is TV good?  You may think so; I may think not.  But it exists as a general consensus that TV is good.  Thus, it is "proven," because almost everybody would think this or that is true.  EDIT: It is "proven," I believe, because the majority has the power to influence all subsequent minds. 

I apologize, but I can't tell you where to look.  It's all either within, or without.  I can't tell you which is real.  Choose one to value. 


"...how can I even begin to imagine such a thing actually existing?"
Regarding all things, THAT is the main question.  You have your senses, yes, but how far can you really trust the outside world?  How much of it is real and how much is made up as your mind attempts to make patterns?

Edited by AndyRawrs (06/06/11 03:32 PM)

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14570028 - 06/06/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"But it exists as a general consensus that TV is good.  Thus, it is "proven," because almost everybody would think this or that is true.  EDIT: It is "proven," I believe, because the majority has the power to influence all subsequent minds.  "

Where do general consensuses exist? In a room full of people who don't know what a TV is, where is the consensus? If it exists, but is not anywhere, what is it?

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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14570162 - 06/06/11 04:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"But it exists as a general consensus that TV is good.  Thus, it is "proven," because almost everybody would think this or that is true.  EDIT: It is "proven," I believe, because the majority has the power to influence all subsequent minds.  "

Where do general consensuses exist? In a room full of people who don't know what a TV is, where is the consensus? If it exists, but is not anywhere, what is it?




They exist for a particular society.  Where does science exist in a society which has never known it?  They're particular.  What I'm getting at, is all ideas are conditional.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14570305 - 06/06/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

moral relativism...puke.

Not even the killing of an innocent child, without some ESP about the world ending?

Let me guess.... same with child pornography?  (not computer generated...physical pictures of unconsenting children)Still not considered wrong/immoral/evil?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14570465 - 06/06/11 05:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know if it is wrong or immoral or evil. What do those words mean?

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14570468 - 06/06/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"They exist for a particular society. "

WHERE?

"Where does science exist in a society which has never known it?"

I don't know.

"They're particular.  What I'm getting at, is all ideas are conditional."

Huh?


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14570611 - 06/06/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"They exist for a particular society. "

WHERE?

"Where does science exist in a society which has never known it?"

I don't know.

"They're particular.  What I'm getting at, is all ideas are conditional."

Huh?






Where do societal ideas exist?  You've asked me, and I've responded.  They exist where they do.  In the societies that have them. 


The ideas are conditional in that they exist only where they do.  In the societies that have them.

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