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OfflinexFrockx
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Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea?
    #14568741 - 06/06/11 10:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well?


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14568829 - 06/06/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hmm...there are some fundamental notions that you have to assume, and then you must define the concept and its defining factors...also "impossibility" and "proof..."  you know?  haha...so whether something is, impossible, say, needs a definition of impossible compared to say a state of un-impossible (not necessarily possible)...Then you have to assume that if I refute something, it can't be proven, and vice versa...ahhh there are so many things to describe haha.  Just think about this:  something you take for granted everyday isn't necessarily assumed by everybody (Me: This is an apple.  Solipsist:  No, that is a part of my consciousness yo! Me: Oh...well...I don't know if one of our views is vindicated over the other so...well...philosophical debate=really hard) 

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. lol.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14568875 - 06/06/11 11:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Pretty much.

Quote:

Those who claim for themselves to judge the truth are bound to possess a criterion of truth. This criterion, then, either is without a judge's approval or has been approved. But if it is without approval, whence comes it that it is truthworthy? For no matter of dispute is to be trusted without judging. And, if it has been approved, that which approves it, in turn, either has been approved or has not been approved, and so on ad infinitum.

-- Sextus Empiricus




So basically, if you decide something is true, then what criteria did you judge it by? And how did you figure out that the criteria you judged it by was true?


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OfflineGrizzlyBear
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14568902 - 06/06/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Agreed, it depends solely on the criteria you judge it by.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14568944 - 06/06/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Well?





Of course not.

Do a controlled experiment where only one variable is altered.  If the independant variable causes the purported dependant variable's status, than the experiment will show it.  This will prove the idea that the purported independant variable causes the status change in the dependant variable: such as a lever causing a light to go on.  This may indeed by proved in such an experiment.

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Pretty much.

Quote:

Those who claim for themselves to judge the truth are bound to possess a criterion of truth. This criterion, then, either is without a judge's approval or has been approved. But if it is without approval, whence comes it that it is truthworthy? For no matter of dispute is to be trusted without judging. And, if it has been approved, that which approves it, in turn, either has been approved or has not been approved, and so on ad infinitum.

-- Sextus Empiricus




So basically, if you decide something is true, then what criteria did you judge it by? And how did you figure out that the criteria you judged it by was true?





Clearly the criterion must itself be proven in its nature or presumed.  Where relevant, the premise itself may be tested via a controlled experiment to rule out false positive results if the purported mechanism of the experiment is erroneous and your dependant variable is caused by some other thing.  Generally this is done simply by isolating only one indpendant variable to be manipulated or where such isn't possible, trying all combinations of independant variables till the effects are mathmatically demonstrated via the results observed.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: johnm214]
    #14569392 - 06/06/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

At what point is something experimentally proven? How do we know when something is proved?


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: johnm214]
    #14569401 - 06/06/11 01:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Well?





Of course not.

Do a controlled experiment where only one variable is altered.  If the independant variable causes the purported dependant variable's status, than the experiment will show it.  This will prove the idea that the purported independant variable causes the status change in the dependant variable: such as a lever causing a light to go on.  This may indeed by proved in such an experiment.

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Pretty much.

Quote:

Those who claim for themselves to judge the truth are bound to possess a criterion of truth. This criterion, then, either is without a judge's approval or has been approved. But if it is without approval, whence comes it that it is truthworthy? For no matter of dispute is to be trusted without judging. And, if it has been approved, that which approves it, in turn, either has been approved or has not been approved, and so on ad infinitum.

-- Sextus Empiricus




So basically, if you decide something is true, then what criteria did you judge it by? And how did you figure out that the criteria you judged it by was true?





Clearly the criterion must itself be proven in its nature or presumed.  Where relevant, the premise itself may be tested via a controlled experiment to rule out false positive results if the purported mechanism of the experiment is erroneous and your dependant variable is caused by some other thing.  Generally this is done simply by isolating only one indpendant variable to be manipulated or where such isn't possible, trying all combinations of independant variables till the effects are mathmatically demonstrated via the results observed.





Well, that appears to be a very experiential response.  For the sake of discussion I will label this view as that of an "empiricist."  But science, in theory, is only an analysis of likelihood.  There are still some uncertainties allocated to certain unknown factors (basically everything about black holes & dark matter & neutrinos right?  Sorry for my layman's understanding).  Take for instance the Heisenberg uncertainty principle; it's a model of an experiment which attributes a reason for the existence of outliers essentially.  It just says you can't know everything about a system i.e. all of the criterion for judgement...maybe haha idk.  But things which are "proved" mathematically or scientifically occasionally (extremely infrequently) do occasionally not follow rules or even laws....this can be analyzed philosophically with the principle of causality I thinks.....

Yes, an experiment will usually show correlation from something that is "proven."  Maybe approaching 100% of the time. but in math, the one time it doesn't happen means it's not QUITE a proof.  Which...means proofs don't exist as defined anyways...what's the significance?  idk.  I hate to be that guy who says "well...99% of the time..." but...I don't know how to validate my beliefs so I'll just say em for the sake of saying them.  Sorry for being so inconcise, my ideas are all over the place


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14569450 - 06/06/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
At what point is something experimentally proven?




Something is experimentally proven when a sufficient (again, not an exact or set value) amount of trials have been conducted, and in which the correlation coefficient or whatever have you is approaching 1. Ideally, a hypothesis is proven when you assume it works infinite - K (a variable) times; then you prove it works K+1 times, using previously assumed principles (past laws, rules, etc) then you say, it should work (proof by induction.  There are other "ACCEPTABLE" proofs, but again, the context of the validity of a proof is subject to the criterion mentioned by earlier posters).  Which it does.  999999999999999999999999 out of 10000000000000000000000000000000 times (make sure the latter number is one greater than the first lol) 

Conversely, something can be socially, not scientifically, "proven," or accepted, when teh consensus accepts it.  (ZOMG the majority!  Oh fuck no!)  Your realityz are the realityz Big Brother says they are.  Your truths are the subjective truths of the society. 

Quote:

xFrockx said:
How do we know when something is proved?




Let me put it to you this way:  How do you know ANYTHING?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14569611 - 06/06/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Something is experimentally proven when a sufficient (again, not an exact or set value) amount of trials have been conducted"

Then how do we know when something is proven if there is no criteria for when something is proved?

"Conversely, something can be socially, not scientifically, "proven," or accepted, when teh consensus accepts it.  (ZOMG the majority!  Oh fuck no!)  Your realityz are the realityz Big Brother says they are.  Your truths are the subjective truths of the society.  "

No such thing. All "societal truths" must be upheld by individuals.


"Let me put it to you this way:  How do you know ANYTHING?"

I don't know. I'm not sure that I do know anything.


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14569890 - 06/06/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Something is experimentally proven when a sufficient (again, not an exact or set value) amount of trials have been conducted"

Then how do we know when something is proven if there is no criteria for when something is proved?






Read the whole thing.  I've given the criteria.  The correlation coefficient approaches 1.  But even then, go back to the original argument.  I personally believe that debate is a null task, as a correlation coefficient of 1 is valid only to me (i.e. some schooling and intelligent background etc.) and thus subjective, ultimately, and subject to the definitions talked about earlier. 
Quote:

xFrockx said:

"Conversely, something can be socially, not scientifically, "proven," or accepted, when teh consensus accepts it.  (ZOMG the majority!  Oh fuck no!)  Your realityz are the realityz Big Brother says they are.  Your truths are the subjective truths of the society.  "

No such thing. All "societal truths" must be upheld by individuals.





Ummm...how can you say that, objectively?  Have you taken anything from the posts above at all?  It is ... "impossible" to prove the existence of an objective universe outside of the image conjured up in the individual human mind. There is no objective statement to describe things.  Do you really believe you are absolutely right, validated, vindicated (there is no reference point, even, to judge yourself except for yourself and its culture, history, etc) Indeed, though, your statement is contradictory to most dystopian novel stories.  Or am I misunderstanding?  Societal truths do exist.  I can prove it to the best of my ability and to the limits set in the posts above.  In medieval Europe under Catholicism, feudal villagers believed that monsters lived in the forests.  How were the monsters any less real than the notion of space travel today?  They explain a phenomena to the best of their knowledge. How could you go about measuring how ridiculous something is, what scale is objective? Although grounded in fear the explanation is a cultural interpretation experienced by the consensus.  Or are you saying there is no consensus/social idea or construct without individuals?  In that case, I ask you, does a tree falling in a forest make a sound?  It's a semantic debate.  Define sound, define the scenario, does there need to be an observer to experience the sound?  What is sound?  Just waves? What if the tree makes no waves?  (hgihly unlikely) etc...
Quote:

xFrockx said:


"Let me put it to you this way:  How do you know ANYTHING?"

I don't know. I'm not sure that I do know anything.




Right-o.  How can you be sure that there is "no such thing" as a social idea?

I don't mean to scare you or offend you.  I'm not claiming to be enlightened myself.  But this approach of a certain self-consciousness is useful in many social situations.  Particularly in attempting to understand the relationship between the mind and the universe.  Distinction between things like object and subject, and the relationship between these two notions which seem inherently mutually exclusive (but are they?) 

Good luck on your journey.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14569894 - 06/06/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Some one refute this idea:

It is not wrong/immoral/evil to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14569948 - 06/06/11 03:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"How can you be sure that there is "no such thing" as a social idea?"

What are you even talking about? Where are "social ideas"?

If you can't even tell me where to look, then how can I even begin to imagine such a thing actually existing?


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14569961 - 06/06/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Some one refute this idea:

It is not wrong/immoral/evil to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants.




Okay?

The debate at its core is circumstantial and subject to criteria as mentioned in the second post, I believe.

For ME, I believe it is NOT wrong/immoral/evil to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants whose continued existence would mean the destruction of something else I hold dear (humanity, Earth, ego...)

For ME, I believe it is NOT wrong/immoral/evil to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants to support a cause I weigh to be greater (their deaths lead to the cure for cancer, AIDS, spiritual evolution) 

For an animal in need of nutrition, I believe it is NOT wrong/immoral/evil [SUBJECT TO, FOR THE ANIMAL]to cut the throats of five healthy 6 month old infants. 

You can twist the argument anyway you want with whatever STIGMA you want.  It's circumstantial, subject to criteria through which you view the world.  Listen to me, what is "right" or "wrong" or whatever human concept you would like to apply to an action is inherently subjective. These are ideas humans make up to make communication easier.  Yes, most people in a culture have similar definitions and world-views; that is the whole purpose of an intelligible language.  But do not preach to me how any one notion or idea or action is OBJECTIVELY "right" or "wrong" or "correct" or whatever human connotation you wish to apply.  You, as far as I am concerned, have the same value in judgement as I do.  You are not God, and do not have an objective perspective.  I shall do as I SUBJECTIVELY see fit.

Do you honestly believe that you would adhere to the statement you have stated objectively, consistently?  What of the circumstances?  See; there is no one statement that OBJECTIVELY exists, true, for EVERY PERSPECTIVE.  Materialist: There is no consciousness.  Solipsist:  There is body, or universe, or being. 

I ask you:  Tell me, which one is "right?"  And even if you give me an answer, how can you claim it to be justified in both your world view and mine and everyone else's? 

The debate ultimately searches for an objective reality.  Which seems yet to appear unless not human, or at least conscious (when we apply personal connotation)

QED?  lol idk im sorta pissed, sorry  <---vindication!  lol


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14569979 - 06/06/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"How can you be sure that there is "no such thing" as a social idea?"

What are you even talking about? Where are "social ideas"?

If you can't even tell me where to look, then how can I even begin to imagine such a thing actually existing?




This is a tangent argument, but a social idea is "TV is good."

Is TV good?  You may think so; I may think not.  But it exists as a general consensus that TV is good.  Thus, it is "proven," because almost everybody would think this or that is true.  EDIT: It is "proven," I believe, because the majority has the power to influence all subsequent minds. 

I apologize, but I can't tell you where to look.  It's all either within, or without.  I can't tell you which is real.  Choose one to value. 


"...how can I even begin to imagine such a thing actually existing?"
Regarding all things, THAT is the main question.  You have your senses, yes, but how far can you really trust the outside world?  How much of it is real and how much is made up as your mind attempts to make patterns?


Edited by AndyRawrs (06/06/11 03:32 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14570028 - 06/06/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"But it exists as a general consensus that TV is good.  Thus, it is "proven," because almost everybody would think this or that is true.  EDIT: It is "proven," I believe, because the majority has the power to influence all subsequent minds.  "

Where do general consensuses exist? In a room full of people who don't know what a TV is, where is the consensus? If it exists, but is not anywhere, what is it?


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14570162 - 06/06/11 04:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"But it exists as a general consensus that TV is good.  Thus, it is "proven," because almost everybody would think this or that is true.  EDIT: It is "proven," I believe, because the majority has the power to influence all subsequent minds.  "

Where do general consensuses exist? In a room full of people who don't know what a TV is, where is the consensus? If it exists, but is not anywhere, what is it?




They exist for a particular society.  Where does science exist in a society which has never known it?  They're particular.  What I'm getting at, is all ideas are conditional.


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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14570305 - 06/06/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

moral relativism...puke.

Not even the killing of an innocent child, without some ESP about the world ending?

Let me guess.... same with child pornography?  (not computer generated...physical pictures of unconsenting children)Still not considered wrong/immoral/evil?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14570465 - 06/06/11 05:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know if it is wrong or immoral or evil. What do those words mean?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14570468 - 06/06/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"They exist for a particular society. "

WHERE?

"Where does science exist in a society which has never known it?"

I don't know.

"They're particular.  What I'm getting at, is all ideas are conditional."

Huh?



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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14570611 - 06/06/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"They exist for a particular society. "

WHERE?

"Where does science exist in a society which has never known it?"

I don't know.

"They're particular.  What I'm getting at, is all ideas are conditional."

Huh?






Where do societal ideas exist?  You've asked me, and I've responded.  They exist where they do.  In the societies that have them. 


The ideas are conditional in that they exist only where they do.  In the societies that have them.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14570958 - 06/06/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Societies are groups of people, yes?

So where can these ideas exist aside from in each individual person? Do they exist other than that?


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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14571329 - 06/06/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Not going to retort to my question?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14571386 - 06/06/11 08:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

your joking right?

You dont have an idea, thought,maxim, belief,etc that child pornography is wrong....or the murder of babies?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14571821 - 06/06/11 10:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What is wrong?


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14574189 - 06/07/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
your joking right?

You dont have an idea, thought,maxim, belief,etc that child pornography is wrong....or the murder of babies?





I will repeat.  You can attempt to twist the argument with whatever stigma you wish to reply (you know what that means right?)  Everything is circumstantial, subjective.  Do you think an elephant gives a shit about child pornography?  Not everyone thinks like you.  Don't be so egotistical. 

Would you murder a baby to save your mother, or uphold a personal belief, etc. etc. etc.  Jesus, do you think you are right for every possible scenario? 

Don't take this so personally.  I personally think that the murder of babies is generally wrong, yes.  But I am not like you.  I don't claim to be able to know every possible scenario; I KNOW and acknowledge that my beliefs aren't those of everyone else as you seem to believe.  I will not go to war and stand behind a trivial statement without understanding the situation; the argument is that nothing is inherently "correct" because to be "correct" is subjective. 

Given the choice, would you let say Osama Bin Laden live given the choice? Trick question.  Know the consequences before you act.  If you say no before you know the situation, you might just realize too late that his life would have meant the cure for cancer etc. etc.


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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: AndyRawrs]
    #14575016 - 06/07/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I not trying to twist anything(like an elephant or ESP about the end of the world),
nor be egotistical. What does riddle me is people who have the whole " nothing can be proven" mentality, over every concept or idea....

yet, those who claim this, do the very same as people who claim to be able to prove every concept or idea.

There are definitive limits to the human mind, but to say that we cannot decipher and reason
(like the killing of a child, or their exploitation) on anything, because we dont know everything, seems pretty dull.


Of course, I know that you do not defend child pornography, if you believe there has been any insinuation on my part, please know that this was not my intent.

(Osama Bin Laden should have been captured)


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14575021 - 06/07/11 03:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wrong


adjective
1.
not in accordance with what is morally right or good: a wrong deed.

2.
deviating from truth or fact; erroneous: a wrong answer.

3.
not correct in action, judgment, opinion, method, etc., as a person; in error: You are wrong to blame him.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14575041 - 06/07/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

1. Ok then, what is right?

2. What is truth?

3. How do we know when something is not correct?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14575281 - 06/07/11 04:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Let me guess, after every answer more questions....kinda like a dicked up Socratic method....well, my only response is for you to find out what "wrong" means.....hope that helps


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAndyRawrs
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14575412 - 06/07/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

STA, I see.  I think I understand, haha...yes, I mean it's not a useful way to look at life.  But...it's comforting to know that you're not wrong, even if it means you can't ever be right, ya know? 

I'm going to do a little more self-reflection before I post on here again.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14575996 - 06/07/11 06:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"my only response is for you to find out what "wrong" means.....hope that helps"

Funny, that's my response for you. When you find out, let me know. I've been looking for about 3 years.


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InvisibleLayinUp
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14576002 - 06/07/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

No


--------------------


Escape the box.


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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: LayinUp]
    #14576010 - 06/07/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

No what?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14576023 - 06/07/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I gave you a answer previously, one I believe to be accurate....

Im not the one asking for definitions, you are, Sir...if you cant get the gist from a dictionary...so be it.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (06/07/11 06:55 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14576032 - 06/07/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You answer left some stuff out. It defined wrong in terms of right, and said nothing of what right is, so that we might know what wrong is. Hence, why I asked you what right was. The definition offered nothing.

And I am not looking for definitions, sir. I'm looking for what you're taking about. I'm looking for what wrong is. Where did you find it?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14576156 - 06/07/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I found the definition of "wrong" in a dictionary  (the link is posted above)

I have also been "wronged" (past tense)in the past (an accountant stole money from my prior company)...
the definition I found pretty much nailed it.(a court agreed) Most definitions explain things through contrasts

If you want  know what "right" is, you could reference several dictionaries or think what possibly is the opposite of "wrong"

An empirical experience would be to question several other people or sources and make a conclusion...... three years is a long time.

When you ask "What is wrong?" it sure looks like your are looking for a definition......


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14576194 - 06/07/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

"If you want  know what "right" is, you could reference several dictionaries or think what possibly is the opposite of "wrong"




If each term is defined by its opposite, how can we know what either is? If two mirrors are reflecting only each other, what can one see in between?

Quote:


"An empirical experience would be to question several other people or sources and make a conclusion...... three years is a long time."




Yeah it is a long time, and I have asked probably nearly a hundred or so people by now. So far no one knows, or at least, some people claim to know but can't tell me. I'm waiting.
Quote:


"When you ask "What is wrong?" it sure looks like your are looking for a definition"




It looks that way to you? Sorry. If I wanted a definition, I would say "What is the definition of wrong?" and not "What is wrong?" I don't care about definitions, I want what wrong REALLY is. It does exist, right?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14576288 - 06/07/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"If each term is defined by its opposite, how can we know what either is? If two mirrors are reflecting only each other, what can one see in between?"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Interesting response.


I would say that the physical act of sight between mirrors that you proposed above is not how one comprehends words or ideas.Kinda like.... "a priori" and "a posteriori"

We both know (or I guess that would be an assumption on your behalf) that seeing is not  believing


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14576361 - 06/07/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"I would say that the physical act of sight between mirrors that you proposed above is not how one comprehends words or ideas.Kinda like.... "a priori" and "a posteriori"

How does one comprehend words or ideas?

"We both know (or I guess that would be an assumption on your behalf) that seeing is not  believing "

You might not want to speak for me when it comes to saying I know anything.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14576391 - 06/07/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"How does one comprehend words or ideas"


Your doing it now!....... by asking questions to specific words I have posted here.

I did mention "assumption"....if it bothers you consider it vanquished from future posts, sorry


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14578797 - 06/08/11 09:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Your doing it now!....... by asking questions to specific words I have posted here."

So how is it different from the analogy I gave?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14579585 - 06/08/11 12:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"If each term is defined by its opposite, how can we know what either is? If two mirrors are reflecting only each other, what can one see in between?"


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Already replied to.


Good luck finding your answers to your questions....even though you dont want definitions...just "meanings"


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14579612 - 06/08/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Why not tell me what knowledge really is if you have it?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14579652 - 06/08/11 12:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The people I communicate with accept some very fundamental realities (to include definitions....OH MY GOD)

I have much more enlightening conversations with my little girl....at least at some point, the "Whys" stop.....


good luck on your quest



thanks for all of your questions...what a sec, I must have knowledge to say that........


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14579697 - 06/08/11 12:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Why thank me if you won't answer them?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14579779 - 06/08/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I do.
..........you refuse, or continue to question.

Like right now....dude what gives?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14579784 - 06/08/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Cause they're boring?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14579940 - 06/08/11 01:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Either you are lying or your previous answers have been so indirect I could not see how they answered the question.


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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: Icelander]
    #14579943 - 06/08/11 01:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Not when you're the one asking them.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14581058 - 06/08/11 05:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How do you know your questions aren't boring?


You propose you dont know what "wrong" or "right" means........please explain how you know the word "boring"


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it impossible to prove or refute any idea? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #14581582 - 06/08/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"How do you know your questions aren't boring?


You propose you dont know what "wrong" or "right" means........please explain how you know the word "boring" "

I don't. I can call them boring, but I can't profess to know anything that would be true for other people. For me, my questions provide me entertainment, and by that I mean a collection of feelings I don't mind having.


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