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InvisibleCups
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Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit * 1
    #14567679 - 06/06/11 01:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

As some of you know I've been experiencing panic attacks since a very deep trip last august.  Living in a spontaneous and sometimes long lasting horror movie has been...illuminating to say the least.  I in no way want to glamorize the experience of intense suffering, but there's something to be said for abject terror getting the proverbial ball moving. 

A few months ago I posted this thread.  It has a video of a girl getting punched and I asked members to watch it and see how they felt or reacted to it.  I got lots of different responses both from the members and from myself...which caused me to ask the question-

What was I really feeling?  Was I sad? Was I angry? Was I happy? etc.

My hypothesis then and now is I am either truly feeling none of these things, or I am feeling all of them at the same time and choosing one to run with somehow.

The "competing brain personality" researcher that icelander posted about recently seems to confirm that I am likely feeling all of these things at the same time and subconsciously deciding for one to "win over the others.  While I am not ready to stick my neck out either way...I decided to put this to the test.

Having recently fully grokked that my experience of life is entirely internal I set off on a little adventure this afternoon.

Went to see the Hangover 2 and smoked up big time before I went.  Haven't smoked in months as I found out very early that weed brings all that anxiety up to the surface post haste.  To top that off I also drove 20 minutes at 60MPH in traffic to the theater.  By the time we arrived my adrenal system was working overtime! As we walked in my hands started going numb from the adrenaline and my legs got squirrely.  It was nuts.

But this time instead of wanting it to go away I looked at it as an adventure instead of something to be feared and...well you know that "lurch in your gut when you look over the side of a building?  I basically got that rush for 45 minutes straight.  I was ready for it to end when it did...but it was actually...in some ways FUN. :smile:  More work is required however....

I've got a gut feeling that this is a very big deal.


 

Not really sure how it fits together yet though... It's kind of part buddhist and part existentialist. :shrug:

What I am sure of is that this is the first time I have successfully changed the way I perceived an intense experience.  It's one thing to not react to someone cutting you off in traffic...but buckets of adrenaline tends to call bull-shit on your self deceptions.

Or is it really that different?  Reminds me of Yoda



I'm posting this on both sides (PS&P and S&M) to get mixed perspectives.  So feel free to throw any ideas or questions or feedback or whatever in the forum of your choosing.

*edited to fix spelling in title for Sr. Poid!


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Edited by Cups (06/06/11 08:11 AM)


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OfflineTony
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14568452 - 06/06/11 08:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Seems like you gave up trying to control your feelings rather than try to change your experience into something else, which is pretty cool dude.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Tony]
    #14568479 - 06/06/11 08:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

From the "other side"...lol
Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
The real question is What do you fear will happen If you get Engaged.  If you actually take control of things and quit fucking dicking around.  I know, it's scary and I go through that kind of stuff too.  The fear of the unknown if you take the plunge even if successful can be incapacitating.

Man the Fuck Up.




Why is it every time I post something like this I get called a pussy by someone I don't respect?

:rofl2:

You're right though.  :aliceshocker:

I don't view this a the final chapter in my battle with extreme fear.  I am still giving the fear a "meaning"...a context to deal with it. 

Even so, showing myself...even in a round about way that "fear" exists only in my mind...and is inherently empty as proved by my ability to change it into something else is a big step IMO.

Unfortunately I am still a bit too attached to things like accomplishing my dreams and I don't know...being alive to fully let go as of yet.

But, as always, I'm working on it.




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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14568717 - 06/06/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Given enough time and space, I find this a great possibility. Put time limits or inhibit the sense of movement by having a constraining environment and it becomes much more challenging and much less likely to be successful. For example, do you think that given the same scenario before heading to the workplace you could accomplish the same acceptance? How about before meeting a partner's parents? Even though these events are not intrinsically different, they are much more difficult to overcome IME. 

Jung had a way of looking at it that I think is important. He believed that the introvert sees the power of the subject. The extravert sees the power of the object. Seeing both is IMO the task of anyone who wants to engage in the practice you are. I say that because the environment you practiced in was an easy environment. If you are going to step it up, you can't expect that every environment will provide the same challenges. There is a power to the environment, or object, that influences the subjective thoughts that pop up.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinedon_vedo
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14570058 - 06/06/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Given enough time and space, I find this a great possibility. Put time limits or inhibit the sense of movement by having a constraining environment and it becomes much more challenging and much less likely to be successful. For example, do you think that given the same scenario before heading to the workplace you could accomplish the same acceptance? How about before meeting a partner's parents? Even though these events are not intrinsically different, they are much more difficult to overcome IME.




Very valid questions to ask. I think the actual events play a major role but for OP it sounds like it was a great start.

I worked on this for quite some time myself and struggled for a long time with it. You can't always pick the evens to work on sometimes the events pick you and those are the times that your faced with the true experience.

One of these times for me was when I had a buddy fall over and die after an anerism ruptured in his head. the moment was surreal and I was forced into the situation with no way out. Seeing the reactions of everyone else at the party we were was odd to me; I knew the situation wasn't going to turn out well but I remained calm and lived the moment for what it was, not getting upset or breaking down. At first I felt awkward it was weird not reacting like everyone else but I realized I didn't want to act like that and that this is what I had been working on.

Anyways just thought I'd share my experience, I appreciate you sharing yours. Keep working on it brother, when one of those serious events comes about you will be tried and what you put it is what you'll get out.

Lah'Kesh


--------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Tony]
    #14571832 - 06/06/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tony said:
Seems like you gave up trying to control your feelings rather than try to change your experience into something else, which is pretty cool dude.




Hey Tony,

You know how sometimes someone will say something to you and it won't mean much at the time...but a few hours later your mind will catch up with it and it becomes profound?

When I had my anatta/not self/illusion of self realization several months ago it came with a bonus gift of a complete loss of regret.  I feel no conscious regret for anything either before or after the realization.  This is in stark contrast to before that day where I had entire trips dedicated to the theme of regret.

Wasn't ever able to tie it together until this afternoon when your post caught me upside the head.

IMO I don't feel regret anymore because there is no reason to.  Somehow, when the illusion of a continuous self went, the illusion of control over the present moment went with it.  I've been spending this time trying to change how I feel about something by confronting the feelings themselves...trying to control them directly.  It's all backwards...

Think of a self-aware glass of water.  Given the right stimulus (32 degrees F, 0 C) it is going to freeze hard as a rock.  It doesn't matter how much the water doesn't want to freeze, it's going to happen.  It could meditate 1000 years on what freezing means and nothing would change.

Now assume somehow the glass of water managed to add some salt to itself.  The same stimulus is applied and POOF, no freezing!  The water didn't have to try not to freeze, or buy a book about it, or meditate on it, or see a guru.  It simply couldn't do it.

I'm kind of rambling here, but what it seems to me we simply observe the present...and these observations influence the future.  When observation reach a critical mass of sorts and spark realization the change is instant and effortless.  Salt in the water so to speak.

Thanks for the post Tony.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14571891 - 06/06/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Given enough time and space, I find this a great possibility. Put time limits or inhibit the sense of movement by having a constraining environment and it becomes much more challenging and much less likely to be successful. For example, do you think that given the same scenario before heading to the workplace you could accomplish the same acceptance? How about before meeting a partner's parents? Even though these events are not intrinsically different, they are much more difficult to overcome IME. 





Interesting and true IMO Kickle.  For example purposely provoking a panic attack on a crowded airplane, 30000 feet up, with no hope of escape for 5 hours would be a trip.

Give me some credit though man...two weeks ago I never would have even done this much.  You know I'm kinda warp speed with this stuff, just let me get my shoes laced up.

However-

Quote:


Jung had a way of looking at it that I think is important. He believed that the introvert sees the power of the subject. The extravert sees the power of the object. Seeing both is IMO the task of anyone who wants to engage in the practice you are. I say that because the environment you practiced in was an easy environment. If you are going to step it up, you can't expect that every environment will provide the same challenges. There is a power to the environment, or object, that influences the subjective thoughts that pop up.




This is where I disagree with you.  I know the difference exists solely in my mind.  Just like the fear.  No object has any power over me that I don't project on it. :shrug:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14572057 - 06/06/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I give you loads of credit, don't think otherwise. Just giving a heads up from my own experience of where it goes from there.

This is where I disagree with you.  I know the difference exists solely in my mind.  Just like the fear.  No object has any power over me that I don't project on it. :shrug:

Would you rather stick your finger in a mouse trap or a bear trap? It may only be a projection that a stinging finger is better than a missing finger, but I personally think it's useful. There seems to me to be a power in a bear trap that differs from that of a mouse trap.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14572083 - 06/06/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
There seems to me to be a power in a bear trap that differs from that of a mouse trap.




Sure but isn't this analogy flawed.  You are talking about physical damage, based in objective physical reality.  The examples you used earlier- social situations- are based in subjective mental experience.

Although...

Quote:

Legend has it that Bodhidharma initially refused to teach Huike and Huike stood in the snow outside Bodhidharma’s cave all night until the snow reached his waist. In the morning Bodhidharma asked him why he was there and Huike replied that he wanted a teacher to "open the gate of the elixir or universal compassion to liberate all beings". Bodhidharma refused, saying, “how can you hope for true religion with little virtue, little wisdom, a shallow heart, and an arrogant mind? It would just be a waste of effort.” [3] Finally, to prove his resolve, Huike cut off his left arm and presented it to the First Patriarch as a token of his sincerity at which point Bodhidharma accepted him as a student and changed his name from Shenguang to Huike (“Wisdom and Capacity”).[4] Without realizing that he had just self-amputated his left arm, Huike screamed in pain and the exchange went as follows:

    Huike said to Bodhidharma, “My mind is anxious. Please pacify it.” Bodhidharma replied, “Bring me your mind, and I will pacify it.” Huike said, “Although I’ve sought it, I cannot find it.” “There,” Bodhidharma replied, “I have pacified your mind.” [5]




I dig that story man. :smile:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14572129 - 06/06/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
There seems to me to be a power in a bear trap that differs from that of a mouse trap.




Sure but isn't this analogy flawed.  You are talking about physical damage, based in objective physical reality.  The examples you used earlier- social situations- are based in subjective mental experience.




They are no less real or influential. All objects contain a power, a mouse trap no different than a person. That's just the way our world works. You don't steal a cops gun for obvious reasons. It's all a social structure, but it's as good as real. You don't skip out on work for days on end because you'll reap the consequences. You don't touch a strange woman's breast because you'll reap the consequences. It doesn't matter whether you fear the consequences or not, they don't disappear. Whether the consequences are important or not, yeah, you're right, it's up to you. But if you don't stand for something...

Quote:

Cups said:
Although...

Quote:

Legend has it that Bodhidharma initially refused to teach Huike and Huike stood in the snow outside Bodhidharma’s cave all night until the snow reached his waist. In the morning Bodhidharma asked him why he was there and Huike replied that he wanted a teacher to "open the gate of the elixir or universal compassion to liberate all beings". Bodhidharma refused, saying, “how can you hope for true religion with little virtue, little wisdom, a shallow heart, and an arrogant mind? It would just be a waste of effort.” [3] Finally, to prove his resolve, Huike cut off his left arm and presented it to the First Patriarch as a token of his sincerity at which point Bodhidharma accepted him as a student and changed his name from Shenguang to Huike (“Wisdom and Capacity”).[4] Without realizing that he had just self-amputated his left arm, Huike screamed in pain and the exchange went as follows:

    Huike said to Bodhidharma, “My mind is anxious. Please pacify it.” Bodhidharma replied, “Bring me your mind, and I will pacify it.” Huike said, “Although I’ve sought it, I cannot find it.” “There,” Bodhidharma replied, “I have pacified your mind.” [5]




I dig that story man. :smile:





I dig it too because once you've cut your arm off you better let go of having an arm. I'd rather not cut my arm off and instead let go of my need to hurt myself in order to "get it".


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14572176 - 06/06/11 11:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I see what you are saying now.  If I fuck up the meet with my girls parents due to my panic attack I could sabotage the marriage and reap the "consequences" of my actions...just like if I stick my hand in the bear trap.

:strokebeard:

While you seem interested in what actions result in what consequences...I am more interested in what makes the consequences...consequential.

Possible incarceration, my job, my arm etc all these things that you talk about....if I don't feel they are important then doesn't your entire argument go out the window?

And if I didn't assign meaning to any of your consequences wouldn't I then be free to live a life entirely of my own creation?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14572214 - 06/06/11 11:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"    When this is, that is.
    From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
    When this isn't, that isn't.
    From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.  "

IMO that's what it boils down to when you strip it bare. The Buddha seems to have known what was up.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14572255 - 06/06/11 11:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Dude you trip me out sometimes! You quote buddha but when it comes to the idea that all phenomena are empty, meaningless, inconsequential etc you throw in the towel.

IMO and with all love.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14572277 - 06/06/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The Buddha laid out a noble path. He did not claim everything to be on even ground. Realizing emptiness is an important aspect but certain actions help deepen that realization. End ignorance, end cycling. That's the thrust of the Third Noble Truth.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14572324 - 06/06/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Here's a relevant quote from the Dalai Lama's teachings of the heart sutra.

"Buddha teaches that the very fact that something is dependently originated means that it is necessarily devoid of an essential, or independent reality. For if something is fundamentally dependent, by logical necessity it must be devoid of having a nature that is independent of other phenomena, of existing independently. Thus it is said that anything that is dependently originated must also be, in actual fact, empty."


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14572436 - 06/07/11 12:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Cups, good for you for pushing the envelope and handling that situation. Realizing the problem is the mind, our beliefs, is the first step. What I think is the second step is a complete awareness of the mind - being able to catch ourselves when we entertain limiting beliefs which lead to anxiety and panic attacks. It takes creativity and turning a challenge into an exciting adventure is just the type of stuff you need to do.

It reminds me of the barbarians who put themselves into bloodthirsty trances before battle - they would put themselves in a state of mind where fear was secondary to a crazed rage. Similarly, you can replace fear with excitement. 

Another important thing I've found is to not beat up on yourself when you do fail. Lately I've been in a slump where I am afraid to try - really put myself out there and take the plunge. It's the worst place to be in. Well, tomorrow is another day. May the universe push us over the cliff and may we die before we hit the ground.


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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14572443 - 06/07/11 12:30 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Btw, if your interested, I found this talk to shed a lot of light on this subject.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14566639


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14576232 - 06/07/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
It takes creativity and turning a challenge into an exciting adventure is just the type of stuff you need to do. 

Another important thing I've found is to not beat up on yourself when you do fail. Lately I've been in a slump where I am afraid to try - really put myself out there and take the plunge.




Thanks Cosmo.  My ultimate goal is to not have to do this but it seems like a decent in-between step. 

I may not feel regret but definitely still feel frustration/anger/despair/etc...usually only for brief moments but at higher intensities than I used to.  So I hear ya.  Good luck with kicking the universe in the nuts!


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14576250 - 06/07/11 07:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Here's a relevant quote from the Dalai Lama's teachings of the heart sutra.

"Buddha teaches that the very fact that something is dependently originated means that it is necessarily devoid of an essential, or independent reality. For if something is fundamentally dependent, by logical necessity it must be devoid of having a nature that is independent of other phenomena, of existing independently. Thus it is said that anything that is dependently originated must also be, in actual fact, empty."




Yes, but what does it all mean Basil?

Actually I get what it means, but I am less clear on how you are applying it to our discussion? 

If you're saying that the world I create will be as empty as the world I'm replacing....yeah I know. :shrug:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14576796 - 06/07/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I don't rightly know. I'm on a different thought train today. Thanks for the dialogue though, I've been thinking a lot about emptiness as a result.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14578586 - 06/08/11 07:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I don't rightly know. I'm on a different thought train today.




:rofl2:

I hear that.  Back at you BTW.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14581834 - 06/08/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It's all a social structure, but it's as good as real. .....It doesn't matter whether you fear the consequences or not, they don't disappear. Whether the consequences are important or not, yeah, you're right, it's up to you. But if you don't stand for something...




Hey using your mod superpowers to edit a post and preemptively rebut my response is cheating.

:crankey:

:lol:


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Edited by Cups (06/08/11 09:11 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14582156 - 06/08/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I was editing as you were responding but I gathered that I didn't make it in time. Or maybe I ninja'd it in after the fact. The world may never know  :awetongue:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Kickle]
    #14582191 - 06/08/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I WILL have vengeance.

:minigun:


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Re: Success! - Shaping Experience As I See Fit [Re: Cups]
    #14582272 - 06/08/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:shitstorm:


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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