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PinKing


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Has America changed the meaning of religion?
#14564808 - 06/05/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Buddhism is about controlling personal conduct and how to live a life without suffering. It seems like Christianity is moving away from these fundamentals into the realm of mystical beliefs, teaching not how you can live a happy life, but how you can live a life "the lord" will be happy with.
What kind of effects does this have on personal conduct, quality of life, or the meaning of life itself? How will this effect the future of America?
These questions have really bothered me lately. Thanks for looking
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andrewss
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: PinKing] 3
#14565903 - 06/05/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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stuff n shit involving shit stuffed with more shit
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Icelander
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: andrewss]
#14566005 - 06/05/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Really knockin it back today I see.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PinKing


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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: andrewss]
#14566382 - 06/05/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said: stuff n shit involving shit stuffed with more shit
hmm.. very interesting.
I'm just thinking that more and more Americans are losing the skills necessary to live a happy life without suffering, which I doubt will have beneficial effects. I guess nobody cares.. or maybe you all are the unhappy sufferers..
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Icelander
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: PinKing]
#14566476 - 06/05/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Better watch out. If we reach a suffering critical mass we gonna start dropping hydrogen bombs on someone.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: PinKing]
#14566517 - 06/05/11 09:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Buddhism has been filtered to the West, and from what I can gather those regions have been awash in mystical beliefs same as everywhere else. Many people don't know, but there are Buddhist texts which talk about hell and torment in the afterlife.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Icelander
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Rahz]
#14566545 - 06/05/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Superstitious and nothing more.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Icelander]
#14566598 - 06/05/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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What I find odd, is that there were specific ammounts of time one would spend in any specific realm of hell, and they are all like billions and trillions of years. That's how reincarnation works in their mystical interpretation. When you die, you might be in hell for 4.687 trillion years, and THEN you get reborn into the world again to deal with some more suffering based on the remaining balance of karma you own. Yay!
Almost forever wasn't imposing enough, so they wrote it out as trillions?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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badmountain
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Rahz]
#14566843 - 06/05/11 10:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think misinterpreted your question, but it reminded me of something I read previously, about how the categorization of religion is a result of western history (the main cause being the protestant reformation and the subsequent split of society and christianity this caused). Buddhism, hinduisms, taoism, etc, these belief systems were not religions in the way that we think of religions today until their interaction with the western world
tldr;
"As Jacques Derrida and Russell McCutcheon have observed, religion is a manufactured universal—its boundaries and definition emerging from a very specific Christian-inspired academic discourse."
http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/publications/jjrs/pdf/732.pdf
So the West generally has changed the meaning of religion, yes, it's very true. and re: buddhism specifically, buddhism at least by the japanese was thought of as a kind of natural law, specifically here dependent origination as the source of all causation.
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badmountain
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Icelander]
#14566886 - 06/05/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Superstitious and nothing more.
kind of smacks of that dawkins-esque atheist fundamentalism.
to group together all religions as mere superstitions is literally throwing away your human inheritance.
as much as fundamentalist christians bother me, martin buber's I and Thou is some deep shit.
as much as fundamentalist islamists bother me, you can't really fuck with avicenna.
and especially re: buddhism, understanding the method that buddhism spread is very important. buddhism employed upaya, a dialectic of skillful means, which means they would basically preach to each culture using the own cultures reference. this is the exact opposite of christian-style kill or convert the natives. this is why tibetan buddhism retains bon shamanism, japan shinto, etc etc etc
in any case, saying the highly developed buddhist philosophies of dependent origination and two truths theory is mere superstition only speaks to your ignorance.
sure, most buddhists in asia are superstitious. most people in america are fat. don't throw the baby out with bath water, yr missing out on some great shit.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: badmountain]
#14567527 - 06/06/11 12:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Some of the earliest Buddhist text describes the past lives of Buddha as Gods and animals. Buddha talked about hell in some text ascribed to him. Yea sure, he had some poignant words regarding reality, but if we're to believe just everything in the classic Buddhist canon, it starts to get a bit flakey. Add to that, there was much literature written on not just how monks should act, but how common people should act, and how they should marry, and work, etc.
Surely this is a religion. Western Buddhism is different, I guess because much of the baggage was filtered out in favor of the cool trippy stuff. But it's still a mystic religion as far as I'm concerned when you start mixing in trans-migratory souls. I like a lot of what The Buddha has to say, and I can say the same about Jesus. Did either one say all the things they supposedly said?
If not, seems to me they were both hijacked from the get go. Considering how Rome and Europe handled the first 1500 or so years, I kinda like how America has changed the meaning of religion, though I would suggest the Age of Enlightenment was most responsible.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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the human abstract
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: PinKing]
#14567545 - 06/06/11 12:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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to the OP a lot of christain churches are more about helping the community than anything
and jesus said that he was not a fan of organized religion
thats all.
--------------------
★ ★★ ★
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andrewss
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Icelander]
#14567687 - 06/06/11 01:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Really knockin it back today I see. 
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Poid
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: badmountain]
#14567802 - 06/06/11 02:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
badmountain said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Superstitious and nothing more.
kind of smacks of that dawkins-esque atheist fundamentalism.
There's no such thing as "atheist fundamentalism".
Quote:
badmountain said: to group together all religions as mere superstitions is literally throwing away your human inheritance.
WTF do you mean by "human inheritance"? Do you honestly think that religions are anything other than elaborate superstitions?
Quote:
badmountain said: in any case, saying the highly developed buddhist philosophies of dependent origination and two truths theory is mere superstition only speaks to your ignorance.
Icelander is not ignorant about Buddhism AFAIK..many Buddhist philosophies are great, others are mere superstitious bullcrap, and he recognizes this.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: badmountain]
#14567941 - 06/06/11 03:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
badmountain said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Superstitious and nothing more.
kind of smacks of that dawkins-esque atheist fundamentalism.
to group together all religions as mere superstitions is literally throwing away your human inheritance.
as much as fundamentalist christians bother me, martin buber's I and Thou is some deep shit.
as much as fundamentalist islamists bother me, you can't really fuck with avicenna.
and especially re: buddhism, understanding the method that buddhism spread is very important. buddhism employed upaya, a dialectic of skillful means, which means they would basically preach to each culture using the own cultures reference. this is the exact opposite of christian-style kill or convert the natives. this is why tibetan buddhism retains bon shamanism, japan shinto, etc etc etc
in any case, saying the highly developed buddhist philosophies of dependent origination and two truths theory is mere superstition only speaks to your ignorance.
sure, most buddhists in asia are superstitious. most people in america are fat. don't throw the baby out with bath water, yr missing out on some great shit.
I wish I could throw away my human inheritance. If only.
I can get all my deep thoughts from other sources than religions. Like poets or philosophers or the bagger in the check out lane.
With so called religions like Buddhism I already took the psychological truths that the buddha discovered out and threw the rest away. IMO he never intended all that high priest crap. He'd likely be shitting bricks if he saw what had been done in his name.
Don't need it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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4896744
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Icelander]
#14568466 - 06/06/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"bagger in the check out lane"
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Satyapriya



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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: 4896744]
#14568621 - 06/06/11 09:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah, in my opinion Christianity has quite an adverse effect in our country than what I would assume Jesus actually wanted. For instance, look at the doomsdayers, spreading fear throughout the country. We may not be bothered so much by it but there are many people out there who don't understand and believe it blindly. I think the majority of our country has a lot of death anxiety DUE to Christianity, fear of perhaps being "rejected by God" and being sent to suffer for eternity in hell. It is very counterproductive IMO.
Also I feel that the belief that heaven is something "out there," that can be attained to, rather than here and now, makes people care less about the health of this planet, like it doesn't matter. Some Christians act all high and mighty like they are not of this Earth, but better than it. They are the ones sitting on their asses ignoring the difficult truth that our planet is falling apart.
But don't get me wrong, there are many good Christians out there who care about the planet and don't believe in fear mongering. I'm just moreso against the present state of the bible. I think it should either be rewritten or discarded.
-------------------- www.collectivelyconscious.net - Hive mind for the awakened. ॐ Collectively Conscious ॐ is a community-powered, community-verified, alternative news/multimedia aggregation service for global citizens.
Edited by Satyapriya (06/06/11 09:48 AM)
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Satyapriya



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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Satyapriya]
#14568632 - 06/06/11 09:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Still I find it pretty sad that even in countries like India and Nepal, where the majority of the population is very religious and believe in reincarnation back unto this Earth, there are still horrible ecological problems. Most of the rivers are horribly polluted and in almost any large city you will find garbage piles all over the place...etc. It may just be because of population overload, but my guess is that its largely due to corrupt politicians, of which there are many.
-------------------- www.collectivelyconscious.net - Hive mind for the awakened. ॐ Collectively Conscious ॐ is a community-powered, community-verified, alternative news/multimedia aggregation service for global citizens.
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Icelander
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Satyapriya]
#14568637 - 06/06/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah lets blame corrupt politicians for it.
Who cares about all those fucks overpopulating their limited ecosystem. They're all innocent.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Satyapriya



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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Icelander]
#14568777 - 06/06/11 10:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Yeah lets blame corrupt politicians for it.
Who cares about all those fucks overpopulating their limited ecosystem. They're all innocent.
HA HA. I said "largely due." Of course there is a lot of ignorance out there as well.
-------------------- www.collectivelyconscious.net - Hive mind for the awakened. ॐ Collectively Conscious ॐ is a community-powered, community-verified, alternative news/multimedia aggregation service for global citizens.
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GrizzlyBear
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: PinKing]
#14568923 - 06/06/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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It will put you in a perspective of being under a 'greater power'. Inevitably making you think that you are not in the control of your own self and that you should obey God's rule of morality. Which i think, is a stressful path to take. We are all our own God's and should take care to better our individual lives. Knowledge and Wisdom will come through experience
--------------------
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badmountain
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Rahz]
#14570313 - 06/06/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Some of the earliest Buddhist text describes the past lives of Buddha as Gods and animals. Buddha talked about hell in some text ascribed to him.
he clearly lays out that what he is talking about is upaya, trying to get people up to a level where they can understand him by talking to them in terms they understand. lots of texts where he explicitly rejects heaven, hell, that wondering if there is a god is completely pointless, that it doesn't matter if reincarnation exists or not.
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badmountain
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Icelander]
#14570317 - 06/06/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
badmountain said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Superstitious and nothing more.
kind of smacks of that dawkins-esque atheist fundamentalism.
to group together all religions as mere superstitions is literally throwing away your human inheritance.
as much as fundamentalist christians bother me, martin buber's I and Thou is some deep shit.
as much as fundamentalist islamists bother me, you can't really fuck with avicenna.
and especially re: buddhism, understanding the method that buddhism spread is very important. buddhism employed upaya, a dialectic of skillful means, which means they would basically preach to each culture using the own cultures reference. this is the exact opposite of christian-style kill or convert the natives. this is why tibetan buddhism retains bon shamanism, japan shinto, etc etc etc
in any case, saying the highly developed buddhist philosophies of dependent origination and two truths theory is mere superstition only speaks to your ignorance.
sure, most buddhists in asia are superstitious. most people in america are fat. don't throw the baby out with bath water, yr missing out on some great shit.
I wish I could throw away my human inheritance. If only.
I can get all my deep thoughts from other sources than religions. Like poets or philosophers or the bagger in the check out lane.
With so called religions like Buddhism I already took the psychological truths that the buddha discovered out and threw the rest away. IMO he never intended all that high priest crap. He'd likely be shitting bricks if he saw what had been done in his name.
Don't need it.
yea i agree with this, idk. once anything becomes dogma or tradition it's pretty much fucked. many quotes from buddha and like-minded people about the first that you should do if you meet the buddha is kill him, to not listen blindly to anything he or anyone else says, etc etc
history weighs on the living like a nightmare or some shit.
Edited by badmountain (06/06/11 04:57 PM)
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badmountain
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Poid]
#14570341 - 06/06/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
There's no such thing as "atheist fundamentalism".
published in March 2008, is a critique of what Hedges perceives as a radical mindset that rages against religion and faith. Hedges states the book was motivated by debates he had with atheist authors Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens who, Hedges feels, excessively demonize religion, particularly Islam, in ways that, Hedges believes, were eerily similar to the thinking of Christian fundamentalists. The 2009 paperback edition (1416570780) was retitled When Atheism Becomes Religion: America's New Fundamentalists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hedges#I_Don.27t_Believe_in_Atheists_.282008.29
Quote:
WTF do you mean by "human inheritance"? Do you honestly think that religions are anything other than elaborate superstitions?
yea religions are more than superstitions. they were a way of understanding the world before science, they were a way of maintaining social hierarchies, they are a way of maintaining community, they are way for some people to have morals or meaning in their lives. yea sure they are superstitious too. i don't know, something about sitting here on the benefits of hundreds of years of science and modernity talking shit about religions strike me as arrogant or someshit, idk.
Quote:
Poid said:Icelander is not ignorant about Buddhism AFAIK..many Buddhist philosophies are great, others are mere superstitious bullcrap, and he recognizes this.
didn't know this as i am new here, thought i'd just jump in and make a fool of myself. anyways what he said later seems quite right. but a blanket statement like 'buddhism is mere superstition' or whatever is pretty broad.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: badmountain]
#14570411 - 06/06/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
he clearly lays out that what he is talking about is upaya, trying to get people up to a level where they can understand him by talking to them in terms they understand. lots of texts where he explicitly rejects heaven, hell, that wondering if there is a god is completely pointless, that it doesn't matter if reincarnation exists or not.
And I highly doubt there was any expectation that a majority would 'get it', which throws his intentions and/or practical intelligence into doubt AFAIC. Might as well call it a royal lie. The ruling classes use it to this day and people act pissed, but when some historical figure cast in soft light does it, it's out of intelligent benevolence? There were early Christian priests who advocated a literal translation of the Gospel... because it would make it easier to understand. I don't agree with those strategies, no faith in their ability to enlighten, or in the way they serve to dumb down the masses making them easy to control.
Suggesting that it's okay to lie if it helps people to understand is pretty shakey. So now we're just arguing about whether lying is cool or not?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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badmountain
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: Rahz]
#14570557 - 06/06/11 05:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
he clearly lays out that what he is talking about is upaya, trying to get people up to a level where they can understand him by talking to them in terms they understand. lots of texts where he explicitly rejects heaven, hell, that wondering if there is a god is completely pointless, that it doesn't matter if reincarnation exists or not.
And I highly doubt there was any expectation that a majority would 'get it', which throws his intentions and/or practical intelligence into doubt AFAIC. Might as well call it a royal lie. The ruling classes use it to this day and people act pissed, but when some historical figure cast in soft light does it, it's out of intelligent benevolence? There were early Christian priests who advocated a literal translation of the Gospel... because it would make it easier to understand. I don't agree with those strategies, no faith in their ability to enlighten, or in the way they serve to dumb down the masses making them easy to control.
Suggesting that it's okay to lie if it helps people to understand is pretty shakey. So now we're just arguing about whether lying is cool or not?
the expectation was that the majority would get it. this turned out to be wrong, i guess. if we're judging intelligence by a person's ability to convert a most people in the world to their point of view, then i'm sure i must be retarded. probably am anyways. i don't know, i just don't think i did a very good job explaining what upaya is. the whole point is to eventually bring people to the truth, by first showing them the conflicts in what they currently believe, and then bringing to the 'next level' of realization, etc it's fucking dialectics basically, it's not that just lie to a person once and that's it. it's a progress, something i guess i don't really have hope that americans will understand, being basically an instant culture
i am still probably not doing a good job.
i don't really think it was a royal lie. it's a bit patronizing, so maybe the two have that in common. he didn't think people would understand his ideas so he tried to talk to them in the language they were born into.
and while people do lie to gain control in buddhism, the original buddha was kind of doing the opposite, as in telling the truth to challenge control. he was challenging the orthodoxy at the time, etc.
it's not a fair comparison re: gospels either.
i don't really want to be defending all of buddhism here, obviously tibetan buddhism kept their followers in feudal slavery, nationalists in sri lanka and japan, fucking new age assholes in america and france, etc. and obviously buddha lived a long time ago and inhabited a completely different world-view that is hard to compare unless you're the type who can easily sling around accepted norms of your present situation as universals for all time and place.
just saying, there is a way of unpacking some bullshit from buddhism by using things the buddha actually said.
as for if we are really debating about whether or not lying is cool, that's a much more interesting debate. one of the upaya things goes like, if there's a fire in a building but the kids won't come out cuz they are playing a game, you can tell them a little lie to get them out.
i don't know, i think most kids would be running the fuck out if i yelled fire, but i've never had kids.
Edited by badmountain (06/06/11 06:07 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Has America changed the meaning of religion? [Re: badmountain]
#14570699 - 06/06/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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For what it's worth, I think a lot of what the Buddha said is good shit, and more to the point, I really don't know what the Buddha said or didn't say. All we have to go on is the religious text that bears his name.
As for the fire comment, treat people like they're children and they will act like it.
If the Buddha really said all those things, I can't help but think he had his hand in the same jar as Plato. Perhaps he was ignorant, but I wouldn't guess it. Teach the monks one thing, and teach the masses something else.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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