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Offlinear1es
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Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? * 3
    #14563496 - 06/05/11 07:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i dont know if a lot of the info found on this site is backed by any controlled experimentation.

ive been growing for about a year and a lot of the info i first found on this site by the trusted cultivators has since been proved inefficient or just plain wrong by other trusted cultivators or users that just have a lot of experience

take gypsum

i thought this was an essential part of mushroom cultivation that would increase my yields

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Gypsum should be added to every batch of grains, every bulk substrate and every casing layer.  It provides calcium and sulfur without altering the pH.
RR




i called tons of places looking for this stuff and finally found a store about half an hour away that sells it. i used it for grain prep and for my bulk subs

i followed RRs teks on grain prep and it says to add a bit of gypsum to the soak

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6936247#6936247

the RR grain tek says to put 1/4 teaspoon of gypsum per cup of rye into hot tap water

i was guessing that the gypsum dissolved in the water and the grains soaked up the water/gypsum solution and benefited from the added calcium and sulfur

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
For adding to quart jars, a pinch between your thumb and forefinger is perfect.  I however, add it to the soak water.  In the three gallons of water/coffee I use to soak ten cups of rye berries, I add one teaspoon of hydrated lime and one tablespoon of gypsum.  This allows the gypsum to be absorbed into the berries where it will be available long term for the mycelium.
RR




ive since read that the gypsum is added just so the rye doesnt stick together

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A few chunks of gypsum don't hurt a thing.  You did go a bit overboard on the amount, so cut it down next time.  There's still a bit of controversy whether the gypsum is actually absorbed into the grains or not, but one thing is certain:  If you soak in water/gypsum, the grains fall apart later like sand in an hour glass.  There will be no clumping of the grains as long as you also got your moisture content right.
RR





does this mean that it doesnt add to yield?

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:


As for grains, I doubt any of the gypsum soaks into the interior of the grain.  Most is captured in the porous surface of the grains where it helps prevent clumping, as well as to supply calcium and sulfur to the mycelium, both of which are essential minerals used in fruit formation.  Some of it gets poured off when you drain the water of course, but using the amounts suggested leaves enough in place to work very well.
RR




i get that this is an ever changing subject but this site should have some updated faqs on the main page when the information is outdated

if the gypsum is only to coat the outside of the grains then everybody that is adding gypsum to their grains/wbs and then washing the grains after the soak is doing themselves a disservice

i was operating under the assumption that gypsum would soak into my grains and i found that  there was sometimes un dissolved gypsum at the bottom of my soak pots so i wanted to pre dissolve the gypsum before adding it to my soak water

RR responded to one of my posts asking about gypsum with:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I fail to see why you guys are trying to dissolve a mineral. :shrug:

Simply add the correct amount of gypsum to your grains or substrate, mix in and forget it.  The mycelium will get what it needs.
RR




i dont get the smug attitudes on this site sometimes because on a previous post he states



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Gypsum dissolves in water so the granulated kind works fine.  It's what I use.
RR




:shrug:

say what you mean dude

does gypsum dissolve or not?

wikipedia states that:

Gypsum is moderately water-soluble (~2.0–2.5 g/L at 25 °C) and, in contrast to most other salts, it exhibits a retrograde solubility, becoming less soluble at higher temperatures.

so taking this as fact...

if gypsum is added to increase yield shouldnt the amount of gypsum added to the soak water be based on the total volume of soak water?

and shouldnt the soak water be cold in order to make sure that the gypsum actually dissolves?

25 degrees celcius is about 77 degrees fahrenheit. my hot tap water is about 120 degrees fahrenheit

maybe this is why my gypsum was not dissolving?

ive done some experimentation but i still havent isolated a culture so my experiments lack any type of real control because they are pretty much all MS

has anybody done any side by side tests to see if gypsum added to rye really does add anything in terms of final yield?

if so then should the amount added be in proper ratio in terms of volume of soak water and temperature of soak water

or is it added just to make sure that the grains dont stick together and the amount of gypsum doesnt really matter as long as its enough to keep the grains from sticking


i do know that gypsum is added to bulk subs and ive done the 10% gypsum thing as per RRs advice

then i see Damion's coir tek which only uses gypsum for the soak and not for the bulk sub and his results with just coir/verm are on par with other grows with more complex subs


does gypsum help with yield or is it just to prevent clumping?


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ar1es]
    #14563535 - 06/05/11 07:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Gypsum in bulk substrate is a different matter than gypsum in grain jars.
1/4 tsp gypsum per jar is not going to have a noticeable effect on yield.
It will have a noticeable effect of making a better grain jar.

As for smugness, you're one of the rare people who bothered to research.
People spend endless hours smashing drywall, for example, to get out a mineral which is water soluble.
Or argue for pages insisting that limestone is gypsum, or the reverse.
It's a topic which generates some goofiness, IMO.


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InvisibleLayinUp
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ar1es]
    #14563541 - 06/05/11 07:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I would like this clarified, too, as there is a lot contradicting info on the website.

Thanks for posting dude, I been wantin a final word on gypsum for a while.


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InvisibleDoctor_Inoc
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ar1es]
    #14563571 - 06/05/11 08:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Gypsum prevents clumping in grains, yes, as well as, makes available calcium and sulfur to colonizing myce..  Both are beneficial to myce growth in all stages of it.  Gypsum makes myce healthy.  It's like milk for mushrooms. 

I always add gypsum to the soak water, at the beginning of the soak, at 5% the volume of dry grains.  Works for me.  That's a pretty interesting fact about gypsum being soluble in water, better at lower temps..  Cool fact.  I didn't know that.


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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: Doctor_Inoc]
    #14563613 - 06/05/11 08:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you for composing my inner most thoughts of just Yesterday!...  I have been doing mass amounts of research these past many many weeks (long before registering)... It's very hard to establish a good "baseline", when the breath of variance is so broad from success to fail :uhoh:

So then, I'm forced to ask a seemingly stupid question. The worst part? Many responses I receive are done so will grave ignorance on their part <sigh> Fortunately; I've also been fortunate to receive some seemingly rock-solid advise as well...  Only time will tell :smile:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ar1es] * 1
    #14563647 - 06/05/11 08:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There is no contradiction in what you posted from me above.  Granular gypsum has a binding agent to make it form into pellets.  This binding agent is what you are trying to dissolve in water.  When I talk about dissolving the gypsum, I'm talking about the binding agent and don't feel compelled to type the long-version over and over again, so I simply say 'gypsum'.

Quote:

if the gypsum is only to coat the outside of the grains then everybody that is adding gypsum to their grains/wbs and then washing the grains after the soak is doing themselves a disservice




I've never said gypsum is 'only' to coat the outside of the grains.  Don't assume that minerals have only one purpose.  In addition, I've typed dozens of times to NOT rinse the grains after the soak.

If there's things you don't understand, simply ask, but we can do without the attitude.

Gypsum can provide up to a 25% increase in harvest weight over not using it in bulk substrates.
RR


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Offlinear1es
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #14565649 - 06/05/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:


I've never said gypsum is 'only' to coat the outside of the grains.  Don't assume that minerals have only one purpose.  In addition, I've typed dozens of times to NOT rinse the grains after the soak.

If there's things you don't understand, simply ask, but we can do without the attitude.

Gypsum can provide up to a 25% increase in harvest weight over not using it in bulk substrates.
RR




lol

it seems as if everybody else on this site is allowed to have an attitude but me


ur quote above states:

Quote:

As for grains, I doubt any of the gypsum soaks into the interior of the grain.  Most is captured in the porous surface of the grains where it helps prevent clumping, as well as to supply calcium and sulfur to the mycelium, both of which are essential minerals used in fruit formation.




so im a little confused

ok so you never said that gypsum was to only coat the outside of the grains

so does this mean that the gypsum solution is absorbed into the grain kernals?

which quote do i believe

just trying to get some clarification on the purpose of gypsum in the soak water to make sure im adding enough or not too much

i understand the benefits of adding it to a bulk sub even though some TCs (Damion) dont seem to use it in theirs

im trying to figure out if gypsum adds to yield when it comes to adding it to the soak water or if adding it to the soak water is not to increase yield but to keep the grains from clumping

based on what doc said methinks that statement is correct but id like some other input

if damion used gypsum in his soak but not his bulk substrate id just like to understand why

if it is just to prevent clumping?

if it does increase yield when added to the soak water then shouldnt the amount of gypsum used be raised to the proper amount in relation to the volume of soak water and shouldnt the gypsum be added to cold water instead of hot to make sure that it dissolves completely?


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Offlinerambo__23
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ar1es]
    #14565941 - 06/05/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

dude.... it prevents grains from sticking together and provides nutrients for myc growth.

you could eat spaghetti noodles every day, and still be alive. but wouldnt you rather get all your vitamins and minerals so you could live to your healthiest potential?

the sole fact that it aids in sticking grains is worth adding it to every jar.


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Offlineuiwnq22776
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: rambo__23]
    #14935678 - 08/17/11 04:10 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry RR, but someone has to say it



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Offlineryphez492
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ar1es]
    #25432836 - 09/03/18 11:46 AM (5 years, 4 months ago)

Forever laughing at ar1es avatar  :hehehe:


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ryphez492]
    #25433012 - 09/03/18 01:16 PM (5 years, 4 months ago)

Cool, but that's not a particularly great reason to bump a 7 year old thread.


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OfflineWhereWolf
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #28108137 - 12/22/22 12:47 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Now it's an 11 year old thread.

I'm over here stumped by gypsum, scouring the internet for the correct answer to the question, is it worthwhile?

In this thread I saw RR chime in, he said to buy the hulled version of gypsum due to the coating which assist in the non-stick to one another of grains. Now I'm canceling my amazon powder order.

Has anyone done proper research to see if hulled gypsum adds to yields when added to substrate?


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OnlineSmellyhobbit
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ar1es] * 1
    #28108143 - 12/22/22 01:10 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Very few people use it anymore. It doesn’t do much. So little in fact that it isn’t worth the investment in time, storage space, or money.

You don’t need it.


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OfflineHollyHedera
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: Smellyhobbit]
    #28179927 - 02/09/23 06:17 PM (11 months, 13 days ago)

Thank you! I've been trying to figure out what it's for, as I see it in all the classic teks and a lot (but not all) more recent advice. It seems it's easy to find "how-to" and tutorial information, but harder to get the whys.


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Offlinenakadash1
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: HollyHedera]
    #28188955 - 02/15/23 04:08 PM (11 months, 7 days ago)

The advice to add gypsum in the amount of 10% of the volume of coir for me means I'd be adding almost 1 kg of gypsum to a single 650g brick of coir. That seems a bit excessive; is this advice in reference to the granulated gypsum that looks like small pebbles? My gypsum looks like flour or confectionary sugar -- does anybody else use this type of gypsum? And if so, do you mind sharing what quantities you use for sub/grain? Thank you


--------------------
#1 Tek
With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission.
Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place.
I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain.
With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch.
Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of  admiration.
JK NO
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Offlineclueless
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: nakadash1]
    #28189156 - 02/15/23 05:52 PM (11 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

nakadash1 said:
The advice to add gypsum in the amount of 10% of the volume of coir for me means I'd be adding almost 1 kg of gypsum to a single 650g brick of coir. That seems a bit excessive; is this advice in reference to the granulated gypsum that looks like small pebbles? My gypsum looks like flour or confectionary sugar -- does anybody else use this type of gypsum? And if so, do you mind sharing what quantities you use for sub/grain? Thank you



A thousand grams is ten percent of six hundred fifty grams?


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: clueless]
    #28189201 - 02/15/23 06:17 PM (11 months, 7 days ago)

% by volume vs. % by weight can = drastic differences


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Offlineclueless
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: ruawakeyet] * 1
    #28189234 - 02/15/23 06:36 PM (11 months, 7 days ago)

Honestly it's not rocket science.
I did answer smugly to an off point question in an ancient thread.
My apologies.


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Offlinenakadash1
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: clueless]
    #28190188 - 02/16/23 12:47 PM (11 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

clueless said:
Quote:

nakadash1 said:
The advice to add gypsum in the amount of 10% of the volume of coir for me means I'd be adding almost 1 kg of gypsum to a single 650g brick of coir. That seems a bit excessive; is this advice in reference to the granulated gypsum that looks like small pebbles? My gypsum looks like flour or confectionary sugar -- does anybody else use this type of gypsum? And if so, do you mind sharing what quantities you use for sub/grain? Thank you



A thousand grams is ten percent of six hundred fifty grams?




As I recall, RR recommends adding gypsum in the amount of 10% of the *volume* of expanded coco. As my 650g of coco hydrates to over 6 liters, that would call for over 650 grams of gypsum. My powdered gypsum is almost 1g/cm^3 so...yea that seems wrong even to a novice like myself.

RR also restated the advice in terms of "handfuls"; as in 10 handfuls of coco requires 1 handful of gypsum


--------------------
#1 Tek
With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission.
Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place.
I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain.
With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch.
Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of  admiration.
JK NO
--Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold


Edited by nakadash1 (02/16/23 12:48 PM)


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Has anyone done Gypsum/non-gypsum tests with regards to grain spawn prep and harvest weight? [Re: nakadash1] * 1
    #28190195 - 02/16/23 12:51 PM (11 months, 6 days ago)

You still don't need the gypsum though.


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