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Offlinefloydmonk
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Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics*
    #14563040 - 06/05/11 02:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have been having an issue with my fruits trying to mature way too early, veils are tearing at 1/2" tall. They have had an amazing pinset but there must be something wrong with my growth parameters or substrate that is causing this. I am determined to come up with the cause and fix for this so I started jotting down observations and possible theories. I'm not an expert by any means and some of these theories may sound idiotic or ingenious, this is just what I know and am thinking. I want to see what others opinions are on this and if anyone else has had this same problem. Thanks in advance.

--Details

Substrate depth ~3"
80/20 Coir, Coffee Substrate
Grain: Wild Bird Seed
Temps: 72-78 degrees

--Reference Pics

Wide View



Close up




Possible small fruit issue theories

--Low substrate moisture content--

The closeup image shows a colony of fruits in the middle-right, perhaps the most populated cluster which has all popped veils, this seems to be a recurring observation. In the wider view image you can also see a smaller colony of pins/fruits which are developing properly, they are on the edge of the tray and are located approximately where a pool of water once was on the substrate prior to fruiting. This observation suggest that mushrooms with more water available in the immediate area surrounding them grow larger, and mushrooms with less water in/on the substrate will produce smaller mushrooms that are eager to spore.


--Low Relative Humidity--

This tray appears to be fruiting in a relative humidity environment that ranges from 87%-99%. However, conventional measurements may be inaccurate. One theory is that the mushrooms are experiencing dryness in the air after they grow above the micro-environment of the substrate surface which is covered with water droplets and would contain a higher RH. Once they grow out of this microenvironment the dry air shocks them into reproductive mode and results in early cap development and spore dropping.


--Undercolonized substrate--

This theory is a little bit more of a stretch and may actually correlate with the low substrate moisture theory. Upon observing that fruits growing in more densly populated clusters tend to tear veils earliest, it is possible that they are running out of needed resources such as water/nutes. If the substrate was not fully colonized inside, the mycelial network would be less redundant and therefore less capable of supporting such dense growth, resulting in the small fruits. Another peice of supporting evidence is that when picking individual small fruits they are very sensitive and almost fall over as soon as they are touched. This suggests that the "root system" is not fully developed and is contributing to the lack of available resources in the substrate.

--Random Notes
Pinset looks beautiful, obviously something that triggers pins is in abundance...
Fruits loose to the touch, seems to not be well rooted on substrate.

--In conclusion

These three theories and several observations tend to focus upon water. This is because mushrooms are 90% water, it is the most important part of their growth, and I have observed huge mushrooms come from areas of water puddling in the past, even in trays with this overall small growth in dense areas. It will certainly take more experimentation and observing to determine the cause of these small fruits. The problem could be any combination of these theories, or none at all.

If anyone else has observed these kinds of fruits before, what did you do to fix it? Any information on what causes small fruits in general would be great. I think I have ruled out the possibility of CO2 buildup, with more and less fanning. Less fanning resulted in mutated fruits that were nothing more than an upside down cap on the substrate. More fanning corrected that during subsequent flushes of the same trays. They also tend to produce larger fruits after each flush. With this tray I have been fanning 3-4 times a day and misting generously.

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Invisibleslapphappypill
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: floydmonk]
    #14563055 - 06/05/11 02:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well low fae would create long stringy fruit, this looks like too much standing moisture maybe? what kind of misting/fanning schedule do you have?

could also be genetics :shrug: Cubes can be crazy sometimes if you went multi-spore


--------------------
We think we have freedom, but we're all just mice in a maze....

                   

FYI: I stole all my pix off google! F+ PORN! Here is a shit-ton of porn by yours truly!

I have FINALLY written up a couple teks as to how SHP has done things in the past. DISCLAIMER: This is not for the newbie to mycology, and not going to work for everyone! This is simply what works for one person when other teks and methods have failed miserably!
~~~~~How SHP does their unconventional WBS Prep!! (NO DRY METHOD)~~~~
~~~~~SHP's highly disputed method of doing ALL their work outside of a flow hood or a Still air box!~~~~~
~~~~~Troubles harvesting the side and bottom pins in your mono? Learn how!! Dunking included ;-)~~~~~

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Offlinefloydmonk
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: slapphappypill]
    #14563062 - 06/05/11 02:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

My misting and fanning schedule is basically to fan before bed, and in the morning, and at least one or two other times throughout the day.

I have reserved misting for when the humidity goes low, I normally spray a lot on the walls of the greenhouse when I see the humidity low. I may spray up to 10 times throughout the greenhouse towards the walls before or after fanning while I'm tending to them.

I also leave the greenhouse open while picking, humidity has dropped to 68% or so during those times while it's open for up to about 10 minutes while I'm taking care of things but it quickly rises back to 87-90% or even 99% if I mist at that time. I can imagine a lot of water droplets have fallen unintentionally on the trays and mushrooms while misting the walls which could cause the over saturation that you mentioned.

I did not know that too much water on the surface could cause small fruits, however I have heard that over misting pins can cause them to abort. Maybe that explains why this always occurs on first and second flushes...by the third flush the surface becomes more absorbent and porous.

If over saturation can cause this, then maybe there is too much water in the substrate. The last trays I had did the same thing, the first flush was small fruits but the second and third were much larger but less fruits. I've got those trays on their 5th flush right now after a dunk...and they are still yielding great average size mushrooms, it's just that 1st-2nd flush that seems to do this.

Edited by floydmonk (06/05/11 02:36 AM)

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Invisibleslapphappypill
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: floydmonk]
    #14563095 - 06/05/11 02:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well your misting schedule sounds fine, but the droplets could have been the issue...

I've heard of stunted growth due to standing water, but doesn't really sounds like you let that happen... I guess we'll wait to see if anyone else has any ideas :shrug:


--------------------
We think we have freedom, but we're all just mice in a maze....

                   

FYI: I stole all my pix off google! F+ PORN! Here is a shit-ton of porn by yours truly!

I have FINALLY written up a couple teks as to how SHP has done things in the past. DISCLAIMER: This is not for the newbie to mycology, and not going to work for everyone! This is simply what works for one person when other teks and methods have failed miserably!
~~~~~How SHP does their unconventional WBS Prep!! (NO DRY METHOD)~~~~
~~~~~SHP's highly disputed method of doing ALL their work outside of a flow hood or a Still air box!~~~~~
~~~~~Troubles harvesting the side and bottom pins in your mono? Learn how!! Dunking included ;-)~~~~~

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Offlinerambo__23
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: floydmonk]
    #14563099 - 06/05/11 02:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

im puttin my money on low RH

do you have a cool mist humidifier or a fogger pumping humidity into that greenhouse?

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Offlinerambo__23
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: rambo__23]
    #14563110 - 06/05/11 02:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

or any other type of consistent humidification? perlite? tropic air?

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Offlinefloydmonk
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: rambo__23]
    #14563112 - 06/05/11 02:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It is a Vicks V400 impeller type. I think I'm running it 2 hours on, 2 hours off, it was the best schedule I could pick with my timer. RH does drop down into the 80's in between on/off cycles.

The humidifer is sitting on the bottom shelf inside. I had made a place to pipe it in and did that for a while but could not get RH above 87% that way, so I moved it inside. Perhaps I need to sync my fanning schedule in with the humidifier schedule to avoid drying the air out too much.

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Invisibleslapphappypill
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: floydmonk]
    #14563123 - 06/05/11 02:57 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

wouldn't you want it running 24/7?


--------------------
We think we have freedom, but we're all just mice in a maze....

                   

FYI: I stole all my pix off google! F+ PORN! Here is a shit-ton of porn by yours truly!

I have FINALLY written up a couple teks as to how SHP has done things in the past. DISCLAIMER: This is not for the newbie to mycology, and not going to work for everyone! This is simply what works for one person when other teks and methods have failed miserably!
~~~~~How SHP does their unconventional WBS Prep!! (NO DRY METHOD)~~~~
~~~~~SHP's highly disputed method of doing ALL their work outside of a flow hood or a Still air box!~~~~~
~~~~~Troubles harvesting the side and bottom pins in your mono? Learn how!! Dunking included ;-)~~~~~

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Offlinefloydmonk
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: slapphappypill]
    #14563144 - 06/05/11 03:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is my first greenhouse, and first time using humidifiers. I didn't really go by a tek, some say 24/7 others say small intervals of on/off about 15 minutes at a time. That is something that is dependent on the outside air moisture.

I did run it 24 hours once, after the first 6 hours I had water droplets building on the shelves and it was soaking the trays so thats why I added the timer. Maybe I just need to increase that timer to 3 hours on 1 hour off and experiment with that.

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Invisibleslapphappypill
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: floydmonk]
    #14563151 - 06/05/11 03:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, normally coolmists are 24/7 and ultrasonics are 15 mins on 2 hrs off


--------------------
We think we have freedom, but we're all just mice in a maze....

                   

FYI: I stole all my pix off google! F+ PORN! Here is a shit-ton of porn by yours truly!

I have FINALLY written up a couple teks as to how SHP has done things in the past. DISCLAIMER: This is not for the newbie to mycology, and not going to work for everyone! This is simply what works for one person when other teks and methods have failed miserably!
~~~~~How SHP does their unconventional WBS Prep!! (NO DRY METHOD)~~~~
~~~~~SHP's highly disputed method of doing ALL their work outside of a flow hood or a Still air box!~~~~~
~~~~~Troubles harvesting the side and bottom pins in your mono? Learn how!! Dunking included ;-)~~~~~

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Offlinerambo__23
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: floydmonk]
    #14563164 - 06/05/11 03:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yea try shortening the intervals so the rh doesnt drop so low.

cause those trays look like my outdoor cubes, which are grown in a very non humid and not even close to subtropical environment.

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Offlinefloydmonk
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: rambo__23]
    #14563213 - 06/05/11 04:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If these look like your outdoor cubes then I think we have pinpointed the issue - humidity. I have had a suspicion about the humidity for a long time now, pretty much since day one with this greenhouse. These cheap hygrometers are not accurate and the humidity could be much lower than I think.

Thanks very much for that post, that gives me confidence. I also just checked and the humidifier is actually set to 1 hour ON and 3 hours OFF!, so I switched it back to 2 hours on and 2 hours off, I might move it up an hour more tomorrow if everything isn't too wet.

The A/C has also been running like mad and my temp is at 66 degrees right now. Lower temps mean lower humidity. I am leaning towards humidity as the culprit now. I closed the air vents and will be monitoring it closely.

Any other possible explanations for these small fruits are welcome, fixing this is going to take testing one theory at a time until I get bigger fruits.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: floydmonk]
    #14563437 - 06/05/11 07:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Based on your pictures I can state for a fact that it isn't a humidity problem.  If the humidity was low, you'd have cracked caps.  There is no sign of that.  It's also not a fresh air problem or you'd have long, skinny stems.

You didn't mention light, which is one of the main energy sources for growing mushrooms.  You also didn't mention how long you consolidated the substrate after full colonization before exposing to fruiting conditions.  A long consolidation period allows the mycelium to digest more of the substrate for use in fruiting.

Your fruits don't appear water-logged, so I'd say the most likely scenarios are insufficient substrate moisture content, insufficient light, or insufficient consolidation time.  You'll just have to experiment with those factors on subsequent grows to determine which variable to fix.
RR


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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14563444 - 06/05/11 07:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think it's your sub, specifically it can't hold enough water because there is no vermiculite. Ever read damions 50/50 tek? it has as much verm as coir and you have none:shrug:

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: SomeGuy]
    #14563469 - 06/05/11 07:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That substrate and those shrooms look fairly ideal. Hard to detect any moisture issues there. The caps are fairly well developed for it to be a light issue.

People run into mysterious flushes of small cubes a lot. It's always the first flush.

Out of curiosity, whats the spawn / substrate ratio and what is the substrate exactly?


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:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: anonjon]
    #14563509 - 06/05/11 07:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I thought light wasn't even tht big of a concern

See: bulk neglect report


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Offlinefloydmonk
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14564961 - 06/05/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Based on your pictures I can state for a fact that it isn't a humidity problem.  If the humidity was low, you'd have cracked caps.  There is no sign of that.  It's also not a fresh air problem or you'd have long, skinny stems.

You didn't mention light, which is one of the main energy sources for growing mushrooms.  You also didn't mention how long you consolidated the substrate after full colonization before exposing to fruiting conditions.  A long consolidation period allows the mycelium to digest more of the substrate for use in fruiting.

Your fruits don't appear water-logged, so I'd say the most likely scenarios are insufficient substrate moisture content, insufficient light, or insufficient consolidation time.  You'll just have to experiment with those factors on subsequent grows to determine which variable to fix.
RR





Thank you very much for your wisdom and advice on this RR. :smile: The light being used is a cool 26 watt florescent, I've used it in many grows and I think it's one of the best, so I think lighting can be eliminated as a possible cause. My light period runs from 11pm till 6am, which should be plenty of light.

In regards to the other likely causes you mentioned, I have been layering the grain and substrate instead of mixing, so it may be a case of under colonization deep inside. My colonization time on this tray took about 7 days. There were two other trays done at the same time which are still colonizing, so perhaps this one didn't have a thick enough layer on top and when the mycelium poked through the sub was not fully colonized. You mentioned something called consolidation...this is a new term to me, are you referring to letting the trays sit for a few days after full colonization so that they can gather resources from the substrate?

I also am worried about the substrate moisture, you see this is only my second bulk grow. I used to case straight grain and used coir, and I applied the same principal of field capacity used to make casing layers to hydrate the coir and coffee in the substrate on all of my trays. However I have seen some other pasturization teks that just soak the coir and let it drain, which I think would result in a lot more water than I am currently hydrating my coir with.

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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: floydmonk]
    #18081692 - 04/09/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

dude. my cakes are putting out micro mushrooms..
ive never had this problem. and these cakes are past first flush
6500 kelvin light
shot gun chamber/pearlite
fan 4 to 5 times a day. mist when i think it needs it.

i mean these things are small. but there is a shit load of them.
its just out of nowhere, never had a problem before till now.



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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: panmanPE91]
    #18081756 - 04/09/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

panmanPE91 said:
dude. my cakes are putting out micro mushrooms..
ive never had this problem. and these cakes are past first flush
6500 kelvin light
shot gun chamber/pearlite
fan 4 to 5 times a day. mist when i think it needs it.

i mean these things are small. but there is a shit load of them.
its just out of nowhere, never had a problem before till now.







:oldthread:
A SGFC does not have an air pump in a jar of water.
Your cakes look too wet and you don't have proper airflow because of the air pump so odds are your RH and FAE are poor as well.
Get that out of there and watch your mushrooms perk up :thumbup:


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Invisibleslapphappypill
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Re: Small Fruits, My observations and theories - What do you think? *pics* [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18082075 - 04/09/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Yup! And FAN MORE!


--------------------
We think we have freedom, but we're all just mice in a maze....

                   

FYI: I stole all my pix off google! F+ PORN! Here is a shit-ton of porn by yours truly!

I have FINALLY written up a couple teks as to how SHP has done things in the past. DISCLAIMER: This is not for the newbie to mycology, and not going to work for everyone! This is simply what works for one person when other teks and methods have failed miserably!
~~~~~How SHP does their unconventional WBS Prep!! (NO DRY METHOD)~~~~
~~~~~SHP's highly disputed method of doing ALL their work outside of a flow hood or a Still air box!~~~~~
~~~~~Troubles harvesting the side and bottom pins in your mono? Learn how!! Dunking included ;-)~~~~~

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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